Christian Goth???

Discussion in 'Defending the Faith' started by LadyFlynt, May 27, 2005.

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  1. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    It can go either way at this point. Is the "Christian" goth no less sincere than the "bubblegum" evangelical? This is coming from someone who has very little sympathy for either, but after being annoyed by bubblegum evangelicals for the last few years, I am not as alarmed by CGs anymore.
     
  2. ABondSlaveofChristJesus

    ABondSlaveofChristJesus Puritan Board Freshman

    I'm immodest too

    :banana:

    I'm not gothic by anymeans though yuuuuck



    [Edited on 5-29-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]
     
  3. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    What I am saying is that the "Stepford" picture of Evangelical women (excluding the Reformed) isn't that much more an improvement than "Christian" Goth.
     
  4. Craig

    Craig Puritan Board Senior

    Dressing "goth", as has been already stated is simply one of the effects of a person's heart: it's not necessarily occultic. I can be any number of things, including hatred of one's self to distrust of society to simply finding a group to belong to.

    I agree that much of the time it is simply vanity...but that doesn't mean they are the swine you avoid casting your pearls before. This girl is basically a child...she needs direction. She has chosen a subculture to be a part of and probably feels she has found...this is what is truly troubling, that her identity hasn't been discovered within the household of God. It isn't the dark clothes or make up that concern me, it's subcultures that concern me. Goth is just one of many subcultures and it is saddening that so many Christian's feel they need to buy into them (which is exactly what they do: they find, and then purchase their identity).

    Children who dress in goth may also have some sort of a difficult past, which is why they find goth as a viable expression...the point is, the occult is not the primary reason, especially for kids, to become goth. It's really a dying fashion anyway. Perhaps these people are looking up Gothic in their history books and realized it was typified by bright colors and sunlight being integrated into the archetecture of churches...really, these kids are Romanesque ;)
     
  5. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    say it a different way,
    what is worse: the vanity that 99% of american teenage girls spend before a mirror for five hours every morning,

    or

    the misunderstood teenage who dresses in black and looks odd on purpose? Sure, some might be in the occult and that is a different problem to be addressed.

    BTW, I am as impartial on this as one can get. I believe the only valid fashion style to be "country wear."
     
  6. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine. Dress and appearance is an outward manifestation of the type of spirit working within. If you dress wanting to portray an image of rebellion, defiance, haughtiness, vanity, death, whatever... you may need to check what spirits are working within you (it is not God's Spirit).

    I would be concerned with the way professing "Christians" dress because it is one of only two ways you can discern what spiritual state they are in. What comes out of the mouth is one indication (Matthew 12:34, Matthew 15:18-19). The other is their outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7). God looks at the heart, you can not see it. All you have is the physical realm. A person's outward appearance is only a manifestation of their heart.

    Unfortunately, the church rarely follows through with two of its main objectives, discipleship and teaching. It is amazing what trash is allowed to remain in the congregations (probably for profitable business). Take a look around and see what a lack of teaching causes... questionable dress for women, messy, sloppy, dirty grunge look, Goth, effeminate behavior in high school boys, you name it. If it looks like a duck... it´s probably a duck.

    Dressing Goth may not be "necessarily occultic;" however, it is a gate in which an individual allows unholy influence (which was probably already there before the dress). The identity and lifestyle can lead one to the occult. The "number of things" associated with such fashion are spiritual. Hatred of oneself, distrust of society, anti-authoritarian, abuse, whatever you can conjure for examples (the devil has plenty). Finding a group to belong to is key... identity and acceptance from the world are excellent tempters (attracting mainly our youth).

    Anything that is unholy and has the appearance of being unholy is not for the Christian. The sub-culture of darkness is unholy and a dangerous battlefield... no different from other spiritual strongholds (homosexuality, idolatry, child abuse, pedophilia,... the list goes on). Evangelism within such realms is truly a gift.

    As far as direction for this child.... who's going to give it? You? Where are her parents? They may be part of the problem... may be Goth parents, may engage in drug use or child abuse. Either way, this is a spiritual matter. Only God can save... you can not.

    You can give an answer and defend the faith. You can live a life obedient to the law of God, showing the world as witness for Him. A "œGothic" Christian is no different from a "œHomosexual" Christian.... it as if a dog returns to their own vomit.
     
  7. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    By this same reasoning I can indict 99% of Evangelical women at church on Sunday morning. I am not gothic (well, in the 400AD sense I sort of am), but don't see it worse than the vanity mentioned in my above posts.
     
  8. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    I have not paid much attention to the evangelical women at churches lately. I have been to southern Baptist churches in the early 90s and seen many young ladies wearing very revealing clothing. I would imagine it has only gotten worse (I don´t know). Shame on the elder women in the congregation. Shame on their mothers and shame on the fathers. This is a prime example of Hosea 4:6.
     
  9. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Puritan Board Doctor

    Why not use their obsession with death as a door to evangelism? Simply ask them, "With all your interest in death, what have you done to prepare yourself for it? How will you face God?"

    :2cents:
     
  10. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    Josh,

    I am under the impression that fire can in fact lead to destruction (Chicago 1871). Good analogy... but slightly different. You don't even need to establish that a fashion of itself is evil... all you need to know is the origin of the fashion and what it represents. In this case, Goth fashion represents something.

    Not sure about the whole musical note thing.

    Dress can lead to the occult based on identity to the occult alone. For example, I will assume that your daughter is in the picture provided on this post. When she becomes of high school age and wanting to seek her place amongst her piers, she may be attracted to such a fashion and group of friends (providing you allow it). This seems subtle on the outside, but over time her friends may begin to delve a little deeper in the matter since they want to portray such an image. Not sure where the venture will lead.... maybe nowhere, or maybe deeper into this sub-culture.

    A Christian, who is under the New Covenant, has the Spirit of God within. This Spirit can not and will not act contrary to the law of God. There is no concord between light and darkness. A Christian who wishes to portray an image of darkness (fashion of the occult) is not representing the Holy Spirit within. As a result, the world sees wickedness as opposed to light. If the gothic child is a proclaiming Christian.... this is a false witness.
     
  11. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Matt,
    You keep assuming Goth = occult.
    This is not a necessary conclusion. Sure, some Goths could be occultic, but that has nothing to do with the system as a whole.
     
  12. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    The burden of proof is not on me Josh. Clothing items are a-moral. They have no morality (just like a gun or a bottle of gin). The individual has the morality.

    I don't need to prove that certain clothing, arranged in certain fashions are inherently evil.... because they are not. A black shirt is not evil. Black eyeliner is not evil. A tounge ring is not evil, neither are genital rings for that matter. Narcotics are not evil.

    Again, its not the clothing itself that is evil. I am only discerning the spirit working within because all I can see is the outside of the cup.

    You mention your parental and fatherly spiritural oversight. What does the Spirit within you tell you about such a fashion?
     
  13. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    Jacob,

    I am not assuming Goth=occult.

    I am saying this is a dangerous road to take. Goth may or may not lead to the occult... but it is one step closer to the sub-culture than fleeing from the occult.

    Goth + Temptation + Individual Will + Unholy Influence = Occult

    The mere fact that one would dress Goth tells the world that "I identify myself with this group."
     
  14. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    Josh,
    That does not answer the question.

    What does the Holy Spirit dwelling within you say about allowing your daughter to dress in such a fashion?
     
  15. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    Josh,
    Please. Matter of taste? Come on. What if she had a taste for it? Since it is apparently not a moral issue for you... I will assume you will allow the fashion if she has a desire for it.

    Under the New Covenant we have the law and the Spirit. Don't forget we also have the law written in our heart and in our mind.
     
  16. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    If the devil can get you to love the fashion... Great! One step closer to the occult. Good Luck Josh.
     
  17. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    Ok,

    Since you will not answer my question concerning your daughters future fashion choice with a yes or no, I will ask another.

    What is the law written in your heart and in your mind?
     
  18. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    Fair enough. Good night Josh. :)
     
  19. MICWARFIELD

    MICWARFIELD Puritan Board Freshman

    Texas Aggie said

    "We have a tendency of getting people baptized then sending them out to zealously evangelize, or even worse... become Sunday school teachers. These same newfound Christians suffer from a lack of discipleship from the church and gain very little Spiritual maturity on their own accord because they squelch the Spirit within. Backsliding is a common result, living a life of willful sin and portraying a false witness."

    I completely agree Matt. I've seen it firsthand. Many churches in their zealousness to "win souls" will carelessly put a very young believer lacking spiritual depth and accurate theological knowledge, in a position of leadership such as Bible study teacher. I've even seen such Christians put in counseling positions. These situations almost always resulted in others receiving very unbiblical teaching, and very dangerous counsel.

    This is the case with young Christians from all walks of life. I know some goth type people who are very young in the Lord and I also know some who are seasoned and mature in their faith. One friend of mine is a pastor. He devotes much of his time to reaching out to these people; people that some of my stuffy, reformed brethren from up the street wouldn't give the time of day to.

    The bottom line is that only God gets to define sin. Do you really think that you can confidently discern the condition of someones heart by their gothic attire? I'm sure the Pharisees would agree wholeheartedly! They trusted that the people would see their holy robes as a reflection of their inner man. Of course, many did.

    Once again, I'm not saying that Christians can wear EVERYTHING without restriction. A t-shirt that says "Lets all commit adultery" would be an example of something unacceptable. If a professing brother were wearing such a shirt, It would certainly be legitimate to call him into question, as he would be advocating sin.

    Mike
     
  20. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    Mike,

    I am not the judge of people... God takes care of this. God has defined sin and has given it to us via His law (we have it). Under the New Covenant, we now have His law and His Spirit within us that we may be directed according to His will. His will for us is nothing more than obedience to His law. The Spirit can not and will not lead you into anything contrary to His nature which is absolute holiness. You do have a will to go the other direction.

    Under the New Covenant, our righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees. In addition, the Spirit within provides the believer a means for discerning spiritual truth (a provision provided to His elect under the terms of the Covenant). Take a look at 1 Corinthians 2:14.

    The idea of discernment is that of "examination" not judgment. We examine all aspects of our life as Christians. We examine ourselves, our children, our relatives and so on. The church needs to examine itself sometimes.

    Not only can Christians spiritually examine the state of themselves and those around them, but some are given the gift of discerning actual spirits (1 Corinthians 12:10). Discerning spirits amongst us, in others, in geographic areas, etc. If you have a topical bible, take a look at all the spirits that are listed (diverse, perversion, haughtiness, drunkenness, lasciviousness, deceitful, lying... the list is quite extensive).

    The author of Hebrews is getting on to people in chapter 5 and 6 concerning their lack of knowledge. At a time when we ought to be teachers, we have become such that we need milk and not strong meat (Chapter 5:11-14). Knowledge of holiness has gone down the toilet for many. Knowledgeable Christians, those who can digest the meat and have moved on, leaving the basic principles, not laying again the foundation have by reason the ability to discern both good and evil (Heb 5:14).

    So, to answer your question... yes. I can and most Christians can discern what manner of spirit is working on an individual based on two things:

    1. What flows from their mouth.
    2. Personal appearance (the outside of the cup).

    This is all man has been provided to discern one's heart. Although you can not know for certain (because only God can see the heart), you have the ability to discern good and evil, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness.

    This concept does not only apply to Goth, but is used everyday all around us. It's spiritual warfare. If the devils can get you to desire a fashion of darkness... it is one step closer to bringing you further away from God. Take another example. If the devils can get you to watch p0rnography (hetero, bisexual or homosexual), you are one step closer to separating yourself from God. These are your gates (your senses) which you have a responsibility to guard against all things that are unholy.

    Again, I am not the judge. All I can see is the outside of the cup. If it looks like a duck... it´s probably a duck. I am not sure why a "Christian" would want to identify with a sub-culture of darkness (whether it leads to the occult or not). Again the Spirit will not lead a believer into anything but absolute holiness. There is no communion between light and darkness. Goth fashion portrays an identity to a sub-culture of darkness (this is what the world sees). Christian Goth is a false witness.
     
  21. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    You're argument hangs on this premise and as of yet, you have not made the connection. Your argument is some form of the genetic fallacy (i.e., a proposition is supported or discredited on the basis of its origin).
     
  22. Puritan Sailor

    Puritan Sailor Puritan Board Doctor

    Perhaps my post got passed over due to the clothing debate. But perhaps discussion along the lines of evangelism would be more productive? I resubmit my post to that end :)
     
  23. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    The connection is the outward manifestation itself. The outside shows what is working inside.

    Old Covenant=working outward in.
    New Covenant=working inward out.

    The Spirit and the law have been given to the believer so that we may draw near to God. He has made this provision for us. The Spirit will not lead you down this path of darkness unless you allow it. The world only sees the outside of man; we can not see the heart. Gothic dress and appearance promotes an identity to this sub-culture.... a sub-culture of darkness which can lead to the occult.

    Why would the Spirit, who is absolutely holy, want you to identify with such a group?
     
  24. turmeric

    turmeric Megerator

    Since sanctification is progressive, i.e. it takes time, a person can be a goth & a Christian, for how long they can do it, don't know.

    I am a little uncomfortable with all this talk of devils, since when I was growing up this is how the extreme perfectionists explained their continued indwelling sin. THEY weren't sinful, some devil was getting them to want to do X. These teachings came into our denomination (Assemblies of God) through Jessie Penn-Lewis, who was a leading light of the Keswick Convention in the early part of last century.
     
  25. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    That it is a path of darkness remains to be proven.
     
  26. MICWARFIELD

    MICWARFIELD Puritan Board Freshman

    Texas Aggie said

    "If the devils can get you to desire a fashion of darkness... it is one step closer to bringing you further away from God."


    And if the devil can get you to desire a spirit of legalism, binding mens consciences where the bible does not... it is one step closer to bringing you further away from God.

    I appreciate your many scripture quotations Matt, but not one proves your point that a christian who dresses goth is in disobedience to the law of God.

    Mike
     
  27. Jie-Huli

    Jie-Huli Puritan Board Freshman

    I am quite surpised by some of the views being expressed here. I do not see how anyone could disagree with the main points that Mr. Daniel has been making.

    Mr. Daniel has been saying all along that the clothing alone is not sinful. It is the fact that someone would choose to adopt the garb of a subculture which revels in darkness and death which reveals a dangerous spiritual state.

    I would agree that we cannot conclusively say that someone is not sincere in her faith based on her wearing "Goth" attire, especially in someone so young, since sanctification is indeed a process. But it certainly is a dangerous sign if someone puts a great deal of effort into dressing to align herself with a subculture which relishes rebellion, death and perversion rather than the Holy Scriptures. It is showing no love or charity to the individuals caught up in such a lifestyle to turn a blind eye to what is really going on, in the name of "not binding consciences where Scripture does not speak".

    These people need the transforming power of the Gospel, and I believe we should be fervent in preaching to them.

    But to take the approach that there is actually nothing wrong at all in identifying with the "Goth" culture is a grave mistake, and can do nothing but hurt the very individuals you think you are being so charitable towards.

    The exact manner in which we speak with these people is another question (if I am not mistaken, that was the original question of the thread in fact), but the basic premise that the "Goth" subculture is not compatible with Christianity should not need debate. Neither should the premise that true Christians must not purposefully identify with such anti-Christian subcultures.

    Blessings,

    Jie-huli
     
  28. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    It is not exactly his position that many of us are disagreeing with, merely that his argumentation is bad. Using his arguments I could prove that country/wester wear is sinful (because country music has drinking in it), etc. Actually, I am against the gothic stuff because it is not representative of the celtic subculture of the agrarian movement as a whole (actually, I think I am on the only person that holds this position).

    If Mr Daniels wants to help gothic people make a transer from darkness to light, he needs to use non-question begging arguments.
     
  29. Texas Aggie

    Texas Aggie Puritan Board Freshman

    God is also a God of law Mike... and if you wish to throw that out, that's between you and God. Again, the clothing itself is not evil (as I have posted many times in this post). It only demonstrates an outward manifestation of what is working on the inside. If you look like a spider, you´re probably a spider.

    Country wear does not portray an identity to a sub-culture which may lead to the occult. As a whole, most people will not label someone wearing this attire as a drunkard either. You´re splitting hairs Jacob.... and you know it.

    A better analogy would be men wearing women's clothing in public and proclaiming to be Christian... what does one discern from that? The clothing itself is not evil. Mike would say they are free to wear whatever they wish under the New Covenant (don't want to be too legalistic).

    All I am saying is that Goth attire does not reflect the Holy Spirit within... it is also a false witness. If you believe you are "free" to dress as your desire prevails, you may need to take a closer look at the New Covenant and the provisions God has made for you to walk after His Spirit (which will lead you to nothing but absolute holiness).

    Jie-huli stated:

    "the basic premise that the "Goth" subculture is not compatible with Christianity should not need debate. Neither should the premise that true Christians must not purposefully identify with such anti-Christian subcultures." This is exactly my point. Why would the Holy Spirit lead you to identify yourself with such a sub-culture?... He wouldn't.

    What specific question would you like me to address on this topic? My perspective may be completely different from yours... and that's OK. Again, I am not the judge of others.
     
  30. ABondSlaveofChristJesus

    ABondSlaveofChristJesus Puritan Board Freshman

    I think this logic can be compared to the controversy of being "disrespectful" to God by not wearing a tie to church. Since when does the preference of the majority (i.e. culture) define and invent what sin is?
    Did God give some authority to culture (i.e. the majorities preference) to do this?

    [Edited on 6-2-2005 by ABondSlaveofChristJesus]
     
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