Church building affordability?

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Polanus1561

Puritan Board Senior
In a board with people from all over the world, just wondering: are church buildings less affordable than it was decades past (considering income and property prices etc) for your area? Is renting premises the way to go for congregations which simply cannot afford that 500k~ sum? Are churches now competing with private developers over real estate—a battle that cannot be won? Any personal anecdotes?
 
In a board with people from all over the world, just wondering: are church buildings less affordable than it was decades past (considering income and property prices etc) for your area? Is renting premises the way to go for congregations which simply cannot afford that 500k~ sum? Are churches now competing with private developers over real estate—a battle that cannot be won? Any personal anecdotes?
New buildings do seem to be much more expensive, at least in the Southeast US. I’ve seen many church plants rent or make use of funeral homes. I’ve also seen an uptick in the number of multi-functional event halls, where some churches will come and rent the space out for maybe a few hours before the next congregation will come in and rent the premises for the next time slot. They’ll set out church signs on the street entryways to direct members to the appropriate parking lot and use a common sanctuary and fellowship hall, then clean up after they’re done. There’s an OPC church in Cumming, Georgia that has an arrangement like this.

I think that ongoing operational expenses can be a huge burden for churches and may even shape a preacher’s willingness to address some topics for fear of scaring away those who give substantially to the church. It’s always struck me as enough of a conflict of interest that if I were pioneering I might be more keen on meeting in a parking lot.
 
I think at least part of it is that it is easy to dream big and get spendy. If you look at how a lot of churches were built of old there were small, simple buildings. Now we expect to have a lot out of the gate. On the flip side, the closest PCA church to my house bought a small, older building under the last pastorate and is no longer able to fit everybody after growth led by a new pastor, so they're now renting a building from a closed Methodist church.

We built an admittedly quite nice education wing recently, and even with a lot working for us (we already owned the land, had many services provided by men in the church including our general contractor who only charged out his costs, etc.) we still ended up at a quite high cost. Our church was able to do it without going into debt, but we're an established congregation including many older folks who are willing to give generously. Church plants tend to be smaller and have people in earlier stages of life.

I do wonder how the presbytery and denomination plays in to this. We have a unique situation in my presbytery that we are able to support building projects for church plants that we're trying to determine how best to use. It seems a good way in Presbyterianism can be to pool beyond the local congregation, as it is much easier practically to do ministry with a sure space than without it.
 
I think real estate in general is getting more expensive, and at least here in Albuquerque, it is extremely difficult for churches to find anything unless they can afford to drop a million or more on land and a brand new construction. My previous church has been looking for several years for a place to buy with no luck whatsoever.
 
The best thing for Reformed Churches to do (in the U.S. at least) is to keep your eyes out on dying Baptist or non-Denom Churches.

A lot of Churches that flourished from the "Jesus Movement" generation are aging out.

This is where having a good network and a catholic spirit are handy. If you only ever despise Churches with errant theology and don't have a kind spirit toward them then you'll never get to know people who have a misguided but real love for Christ.

If you find these older people, there's a good chance they might see your Church as misguided in their eyes but also as a Church that is spreading the Gospel.

In our case, we just purchased our building from a Church like this. They had been planted by a PCA Church 40 years ago but were in the "New Life" era where they thought it would be good to be a Church that didn't take sides on the Calvinism issue. They flourished for a few years but then split and aged out.

The remaining congregants were hostile to Calvinism in principle but liked "us" in reality. In other words, they saw it preferable that the building they had bought go to another Church rather than some commercial property.

We got the building for a third of the cost it takes to purchase and clear property to begin construction.

Keep your eyes peeled.
 
I've seen SDA churches used. Curious about synagogues.
I've worshipped while travelling at 3 SDA buildings that were shared. I think Christ URCNA in Anaheim, CA actually has some sort of dual agreement with the SDAs to both use the building more than just a typical rental agreement, but I'm not sure. I also worshipped at an RP church plant which met at a Jewish community center, in their library.

My last church had an agreement with a defunct Primitive Baptist church to rent. Trustees of another PB church owned the building which was almost entirely vacant, though it was somewhat maintained. Last I heard they still have a way below market rent for a relatively spacious building at a prominent intersection in a growing, pricey part of town.
 
In a board with people from all over the world, just wondering: are church buildings less affordable than it was decades past (considering income and property prices etc) for your area? Is renting premises the way to go for congregations which simply cannot afford that 500k~ sum? Are churches now competing with private developers over real estate—a battle that cannot be won? Any personal anecdotes?
Well, I was in a meeting last night along with our other Elders and Deacons and an architectural firm we have been working with for many years back to our original build. We are a PCA church in North AL. We have an established church that began meeting in the late 80's then in an SDA ~1990 and built the first portion of our current plan in 1994. We have had a couple of additions and renovations over the years in accordance with our Master Plan primarily for education and administrative space.

We would like to build a new sanctuary and add a youth building and some more adult education space....the pricing is so crazy that it is discouraging. We will see if The Lord wants us to move in this direction. There is a lot of prayer and planning going on and the growth is anchored in desires for discipleship, impact on our city with the gospel and creating some facilities to help towards those ends.

We are not a formal or high church and are looking at economical construction type and finishes etc....new construction for the Sanctuary comes into the $500/sf range so the numbers get large very quickly...renovating existing space like current sanctuary to reuse for other purposes and building a youth building etc. added to a new sanctuary gets you into close to double digit million dollar investment....just putting in new parking equates to $2000-$2500 per space to prep land put in asphalt, drainage, curbs and stripes...costs for construction projects have exploded unfortunately.
 
I think at least part of it is that it is easy to dream big and get spendy. If you look at how a lot of churches were built of old there were small, simple buildings. Now we expect to have a lot out of the gate. On the flip side, the closest PCA church to my house bought a small, older building under the last pastorate and is no longer able to fit everybody after growth led by a new pastor, so they're now renting a building from a closed Methodist church.

I understand your point about people demanding "the best" in churches.

But construction costs are a MASSIVE burden thanks to high costs of workers and regulatory compliance. Many of the churches built in the 1800s were built by the hands of the members who were used to raising barns or building other things. Very few churches today have general contractors and specialized tradesmen in the church who can handle electrical, plumbing, roofing, foundations, and other things that if done wrong, produce a serious safety hazard. We just don't have the construction skills in the average church membership that our great-grandfathers had when most people in rural America were farmers, and most people living in cities were only one generation from the farm.

My wife and I will close next week on this building, an old Methodist church founded in 1876 whose building was rebuilt in 1954 that closed this summer. The cost after all expenses will run us a bit more than $100,000. Professionals with decades of experience tell us that to build this same building new today would run, at an absolute minimum, $350,000.

This is in the Missouri Ozarks near Fort Leonard Wood in a county with about 55,000 people. Take the same building and put it in suburban St. Louis or Kansas City and you're massively increasing the cost. Even in St. Robert (our county's major commercial hub, outside the main gate of Fort Leonard Wood) properties of half an acre with I-44 frontage have sold for more than a million dollars.

That's just not viable for a church plant. And this church we are about to buy is one of only two churches that have come up for public sale in a decade in our whole county. (Granted, other churches have sold privately without going through realtors and a public listing, but those usually are deals between pastors and/or churches that know each other personally.)
 

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I echo what Rich said. If you aren't looking to plant in the bath of growth, look for opportunities on the edge of where you might want to be. We ended up buying from a struggling Baptist congregation that needed to downsize from its location which was at the time on the border between nice and not nice. Another PCA church in the presbytery bought and renovated a former church in their town. A fair number of church properties in the 1960s suburbs have changed hands - one I recall was a PCUSA church that moved to a more upscale area (and lost half their members, so their new property might be available at some point). A PCA church moved to a nice new facility a few years ago, and a Baptist church now has a great, high visibility location. A consultant I knew some years ago said that people would commute 20 minutes to church before distance became a factor in their decision.

And don't ignore commercial properties - I'm aware of a couple of non-denominational churches that bought office complexes, and another that bought a closed 10 screen theater. Almost forgot the one that bought a suburban car dealership.

But construction costs are a MASSIVE burden thanks to high costs of workers and regulatory compliance. Many of the churches built in the 1800s were built by the hands of the members who were used to raising barns or building other things.
The deacons planned to do some hands on renovation in a portion of our facility that was built in the 1930s. We ended up having to hire the work done because of asbestos. So older facilities aren't without their own issues.
 
A consultant I knew some years ago said that people would commute 20 minutes to church before distance became a factor in their decision.

Edward is right, with two caveats.

Broad evangelicals will generally be willing to drive the same distance to church that they're willing to drive to work. In rural America, it's not unusual for people to live significantly farther than 20 minutes away from work because they may want an inexpensive home (or want to farm, or have livestock, or live on inherited family property) but need to have a job in a more urban area. Cities are a different situation from rural life.

Conservative Reformed people are used to driving significant distances to church. I drive more than an hour to an ARP. In the last state where I lived, I drove nearly two hours to an OPC, and then when that church closed, I had to drive well over two hours, across state lines, to another OPC. I lived two blocks from my office and usually walked to work.

If people are committed to making church a priority in their lives, they'll be willing to drive. The reality is in most of America, finding a confessionally Reformed church requires a major drive.
 
Is renting premises the way to go for congregations which simply cannot afford that 500k~ sum?

I just posted our story here, but will say that number is roughly what we had in savings, and we were astonished how unfar that would go toward a new, very modest building.
 
Grand Rapids is an outlier when it comes to Reformed churches within proximity
Very definitely. I'm a Grand Rapids native, and while I've never counted, I'm pretty sure when I was growing up, there were more Reformed churches of various denominations, not quite literally one on every major corner but not far from that, than there are, percentage-wise based on population, Baptist churches here in the rural Ozarks.

Of course, nearly all were Dutch Reformed, with one tiny OPC in inner-city Grand Rapids and one small RPCES that later merged into the PCA, and many members of those two churches were also ethnically Dutch. That's no longer true today, but back then "Reformed" and "Dutch" were close to being synonyms in West Michigan. It was far more common to see a Dutch person who had left the Reformed church in which he had grown up than to find a non-Dutch person who had joined one. That meant the Reformed churches were concentrated in neighborhoods and communities that either had, or in the past had once had, a heavily Dutch population. In the parts of metro Grand Rapids that had never been Dutch (the Polish West Side, for example), there were few or no Reformed churches. So the perception that "there's a Reformed church on every corner in Grand Rapids, or a church that used to be Reformed and got sold to someone else" isn't quite true, but not far from it.
 
I just posted our story here, but will say that number is roughly what we had in savings, and we were astonished how unfar that would go toward a new, very modest building.

Blessings on your work, Elder Jon. That's an important note that even in rural America, church construction and purchase costs can be sky-high. It's a reminder that we need to be VERY grateful for the low cost we're looking at for building purchase.

FYI, the inspection reports on the church building we plan to buy have come back not just good but very good. We were looking (based on an initial home inspector report by a man who isn't familiar with church buildings, and a structural engineer report by a company he retained) at $15,000-plus repairs to a building offered for sale for $95,000. A previous planned purchaser wanted the United Methodists to pay about $15,000 to fix the building before they'd buy, and when the Methodists said "no, we sell as-is," the previous purchaser backed out based on the initial inspection report.

It turned out, after an extensive review, that the only real problem was a very old gutter system that was too small to handle the runoff from a new metal roof the elderly Methodist members had installed a few years ago, plus they hadn't cleaned out the gutters (it was so bad there was an actual tree with leaves growing out of the top of the downspout), and to make matters worse, one of the drains was directing water straight into the foundation. Not sure who was advising the group of elderly Methodists on their building maintenance, but it's clear the problems could have been fixed easily. But even with the current guttering issues, we've had two substantial rains since we put the building under contract, not a single drop of water came into the building, and there's no moisture on the foundation walls.

Sadly, this kind of thing isn't the only case we know. There is another much larger historic downtown Methodist church in a town about a dozen miles away that the Methodists were told needed to be torn down or hundreds of thousands of dollars of foundation repair and drainage work would need to be done. A local contractor in that community was horrified to see a historic church slated for demolition, bought it, and turned it into nice restaurant and event venue for a few tens of thousands of dollars by putting in a modern drainage system. The new drainage system works fine and has worked for several years, unlike the previous system where the building was flooding with almost every major rain, so it's now crystal clear the Methodists got given high repair estimates by someone who may have wanted to make money rather than help the church fix its problems. The Methodists in that community are now stuck with a huge construction bill for a brand new church building that probably never needed to be built, while their historic downtown building is now in the hands of a Christian business owner who cared about it and wanted to preserve it.

We have the money to pay the high-end repair estimates for the building we're about to purchase, but the estimates we're getting from some of the Baptists in our area who have done church construction work for decades top out at a few thousand dollars for the "must do" things, and considerably less than $10,000 for "nice-to-do eventually" things we don't need but will probably choose to pay for eventually.

I'm telling these stories to alert people to be "on the watch" for contractor repair estimates when buying buildings or repairing buildings. The construction trade is filled with people who want to make a quick buck for bad work, and conversely, there are quality contractors who charge significantly more money because they know they have a reputation for doing a good job and can charge a premium to customers who have had bad experiences and don't want to have to re-do shoddy work done by somebody with a low bill. I know several Christian contractors here who are known for high-end work, and when asked why they charge so much more, they say -- correctly -- that they want customers who can afford to pay for quality work and avoid the customers who are looking for a deal. Nothing wrong with that; a car dealership selling new Mercedes has a different customer than the lower-priced vehicles. The problem is most churches can't afford a Mercedes and need to do the equivalent of buying a used car with significant miles on it. The construction people who serve the lower-end market need to be vetted carefully, just like the used car dealers need to be vetted carefully.

If you live in an area with a significant number of evangelical Christians in the construction trades, find people who know what they are doing and have done church construction and repair work for many years. Get references, and recognize that church construction can be very different from residential construction or other types of commercial buildings, so people who haven't done church construction may not understand the differences. Many ministers move around a lot or don't want to say bad things about tradesmen who do work they don't understand well enough to evaluate, but often lay members of church boards who have construction experience are very willing to talk about their experiences, both good and bad, with church construction jobs done by contractors.

Hope this all helps.
 
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