Congregational Polity and Being Reformed

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Also, Augustine: Sermon to the Catechumens,

"But ye begin to have him for your father, when ye have been born by the church as your Mother."

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Matt,
I have read your definition of reformed. What do you think God's definition would look like? I understand that you would say that God would agree with your paper. Just think about it. I would be a Presbyterian except for one thing. I just don't see the baptism issue in the scripture as you do. I agree with you on church government. I like the Presbyterian system. It is biblical. John Owen held Presbyterians in high reguard. He just got stuck in congregationalism.
One other point. Are you saying because a denomination is not Presbyterian they are not a part of the mother church? I agree with you about the Sabbath. I also think Pastorway does. Is he not a part of the Church? Maybe I misunderstood your comments.

For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Originally posted by webmaster
John Owen - is he Reformed?

Good question. I lean towards an answer, but won't revela it just yet. I think, though, there is going to be some elasticity in the answer depending on whether you want to define everything by church government or not. Many theologians are bound to many Reformed doctrines, but that does not make them Reformed. Obviously polity is important. It is, In my humble opinion, of the esse of the church because it plays directly into Christ's authority. Is Christ Lord of the Chruch, or do men get to make thier own churches based on thier own convictions? Its liek the Sabbath. Do men get to choose what Day the Sabbath is or is it the first day of the week? Is Christ really Lord of the Sabbath or not? So it is with polity. Polity is important. That is why the early church mimicked Iranaeus - "There is no salvation outside the Church." He wasn't talking about the church invisible either. They found it to be rather important. Today's church, bound up in "individualism" does not. Its too bad more has not been written on it.

You can't have God as your Father without having the Church as your Mother.

Who said that?

[Edited on 12-16-2004 by webmaster]

One other thing Matt,

You may want to stick a link to your Who is Reformed article on this thread. It is an insightful article.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Randy, I'm going to updating that and expanding it.

Current version is here:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/McMahon-WhatDoesItMeanToBeReformed.htm

 

[pastorway]

so who is a Christian?

I mean the term has been so misused and is often used to speak about Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses and other odd and sundry cultic groups.

So maybe we should drop that label too since no one knows what it really is to be a Christian.......



Who is reformed? If we cannot define the term then who cares?

And let us never equate the term reformed with the term saved!! You can be saved and not reformed and you can be reformed and not saved!!

I'm with Spurgeon here -

I am never ashamed to avow myself a Calvinist; I do not hesitate to take the name of Baptist; but if I am asked what is my creed, I reply, "It is Jesus Christ"

Phillip

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Phillip,

I don't think we should drop any of the labels. Keep them all. Just use them appropriately and define them adequately.

Tis all I ask....

 

[pastorway]

But there is the whole point I wanted to make - who defines them?

Fred has already pointed out quite ably that for too many the labels have become so narrow that they are useless and even misleading.

PW

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by pastorway
Who is reformed? If we cannot define the term then who cares?

And let us never equate the term reformed with the term saved!! You can be saved and not reformed and you can be reformed and not saved!!

Of course one can be saved and not Reformed, and I have yet to see anyone on this board claim otherwise. I disagree, however, that one can be truly Reformed and not saved. Theology is definitively for life after all, and its application is an integral part of it, as William Ames' definition of the term notes.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

who defines them?

Those who have the right definitions!

(Just kidding.)

History (God providentially) defines them (i.e. people who are born and live in Florida are called Floridians; those who move there are called Deep Northerners; those who live there for longer than 20 years are adopted Floridians - in other words, people who live in Texas are not called Floridians).

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

SEMPER REFORMANDA

They just didn't reform far enough. They kept the teaching of infant baptism. Paedo-Baptism isn't mentioned until Origen. And it is only a small reference. The Church had many other things to fight against than squabble about some new thing being done. I see confessing new born babes in Christ needing the sign of the covenant. So everything does transfer to the New Covenant from the Old. New born babes in Christ are to receive the sign. They are just confessing babes in Christ.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9,10

I really don't want to start a discussion on this so I will not continue this. I love everything Presbyterian except for infant baptism. One can be a Covenant Theologian and be Baptist. One can reform farther from Catholicism than Luther or Calvin did. The Solas were the reason for reform. The term reformation had to do with the churches action of pulling away from the Catholic Church, not whether it Baptized Babies or not.

I like the sentence, "It (Reforming) refers to defining theology more clearly in the process of understanding the word of God."

I still disagree with the article. I understand it though. The term shouldn't be used loosely. In the book that Banner of Truth published, The Reformed Pastor, Reformed is defined much looser by Packers intro than I would be persuaded to allow. Many People would consider Baxter to be a Reformed Pastor even though He was not a 5 point Calvinist.

For Christ's Crown and Covenant, Randy

[Edited on 12-17-2004 by puritancovenanter]

 

[Puritanhead]

I was raised in a Congregationalist-- and I'm a Reformed Baptist as of now... and I consider myself Reformed, notwithstanding my creedo-baptism and congregational polity.

[Edited on 12-25-2004 by Puritanhead]