I like how Dr Mohler has defined Christianity theology under 3 tiers, and the only one that we all must agree upon doctrines wise is the first, primary theology one.
Do all churches/denominations compromise?
- Thread starter Santos
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Santos
Puritan Board Sophomore
So how does one hold to old earth and Original Sin? I suppose that is off topic. Also, there are a few other responses in my post #24 I'm not sure that you were able to see where I responded to each portion of your post. If you expand the view you'll see it.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
You would have to ask the adherents of that position for their answer. I could put words in their mouths, but I will refrain. You seem to be dodging the bullet with respect to the basic point that I was making. I was simply asking you to justify your taking offence at someone quoting from a "woke" preacher if there was nothing wrong with the quote.
Kinghezy
Puritan Board Sophomore
@Reformed Covenanter and @Santos , I think you 2 have different definitions for liberalism, but both of you have yet to define what you mean. Maybe defining may assist in further discussion?
D
Deleted member 6112
Guest
Santos,
The answer to your questions is no, these are not universal problems. They are endemic problems in the PCA, though. I know of a church that is leaving the PCA over these and similar issues. If you do not have a strong church in your area, I recommend moving in order to strengthen a more sound church somewhere else. If you'd like some recommendations, I'll be happy to give them.
Santos
Puritan Board Sophomore
liberal adjective (SOCIETY)
C1 respecting and allowing many different types of beliefs or behaviour:
showing or characterized by broad-mindedness
A liberal is someone on the left wing of politics — the opposite of a conservative. Also, a liberal attitude toward anything means more tolerance for change.
C1 respecting and allowing many different types of beliefs or behaviour:
showing or characterized by broad-mindedness
A liberal is someone on the left wing of politics — the opposite of a conservative. Also, a liberal attitude toward anything means more tolerance for change.
If people want to debate whether Keller is a 'liberal' they need to start a new thread.
Santos, you need to define your terms more precisely if you want precise answers to your questions. The word 'reformed' means many different things to many different people. (as does liberal)
Santos, you need to define your terms more precisely if you want precise answers to your questions. The word 'reformed' means many different things to many different people. (as does liberal)
Santos
Puritan Board Sophomore
Wow! I get it folks....Several of you have made it abundantly clear.....I am not reformed because I can't yet say that it's okay to dunk babies based on my conscience and my understanding of scripture. And because my signature still says SBC. But had you read all of my posts you would see that I don't attend an SBC church any more.
Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Graduate
Brother, sorry you feel this way. I don't think anyone has any ill intention. All of us here are first and foremost, Christians, and we share life in Christ with all believers regardless of what denomination they are in. We like reformed theology here, but our pride and glory is Christ, not a systematic theology. I think this is what the wise members on here are trying to help you to see. As Christians, our regular way of thinking should be striving for unity, not division. I get the impression that you are very zealous about being reformed right now, and are very quick to break away from others who Christ has died for. Wisdom would have you meditate on this issue, brother.
JTB.SDG
Puritan Board Junior
Well said Perg.
There are different opinions on PB as to what the word 'reformed' should mean. We have heated debates on the subject. However, that is not what is happening here. You are taking offense where there is none intended. The people here want to help you work through these things. Most of us have been exactly where you are.
Your signature says you attend an SBC church. Others on PB are members of SBC churches as well. If you no longer attend an SBC church, change your signature so there is no confusion.
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
When did you stop attending?
Kinghezy
Puritan Board Sophomore
I think it is at least useful to clarify terms. That will help sharpen Santos for if he uses Keller as an example. Liberalism is probably not the best term to lead on, because it could be used in the Machen sense.
I will say one last thing on Keller, at my church he is very popular. I do not have experience at a wide swarth of PCA churches, but my impression is that many in the PCA really like his sermons /books /etc. Be prepared to be in the minority if you prefer Matthew Henry over Tom Keller.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
You did not, as post 24 is not even addressed to me. If you meant post 23, you did not answer my point at all, but went off on a tangent.
Santos
Puritan Board Sophomore
Reformed Covenanter,
You are correct I did mean post #23. And what you call a tangent I meant only to answer your questions one by one. If I appear a bit impassioned or brash then I apologize. It just hits close to home. Below was my answer to your question. Again, I apologize for my tone.
"Seriously, what does it matter where the quote came from as long as it's a good one? Do you really mean that? Here is how it matters. A pastor or elder is speaking to the church with a mixed crowd of mature and immature (call that me if you wish) Christians and unbelievers in attendance and he quotes a questionable "teacher" with no caveats, does this pastor not lend his credibility to this errant teacher? "
You are correct I did mean post #23. And what you call a tangent I meant only to answer your questions one by one. If I appear a bit impassioned or brash then I apologize. It just hits close to home. Below was my answer to your question. Again, I apologize for my tone.
"Seriously, what does it matter where the quote came from as long as it's a good one? Do you really mean that? Here is how it matters. A pastor or elder is speaking to the church with a mixed crowd of mature and immature (call that me if you wish) Christians and unbelievers in attendance and he quotes a questionable "teacher" with no caveats, does this pastor not lend his credibility to this errant teacher? "
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This happens more often that I would like to admit. It always befuddles me why one would quote a questionably non-Reformed person when there are so many reputable people available.
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Generally speaking, from personal experience, they arent widely read (i.e. they haven't read enough to be able to escape their immediate culture).
How many ministers in the world read like you or Jacob or Reuben or Daniel or Chris here? Sadly, not enough. (2 Tim. 4:13).
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For every citation, analogy, anecdote out of Watson, Henry, Calvin, .... Augustine or a church father, 100 (1000?) sports, pop culture, movie references. It's the literature of our times I'm afraid.
Santos
Puritan Board Sophomore
Again, I apologize for my tone to all who have tried to help me to understand. I still do not understand.
I do not understand how I am being interpreted as being overly zealous for the reformed tradition when I point out that the things that I am seeing in the reformed church that my family is attending, and prayerfully considering joining, have some of the same questionable practices as what I had seen at my previous seeker sensitive church. I'm not asking to attack the church or denomination where we currently worship. I had not even meant to give away that it was a PCA church. That was my foolish mistake.
I do not understand why it does not matter who one quotes when your credibility will be given to any you quote without qualifying your citation.
I do not understand why someone would think that may questions mean that I am saying that Arminians are not a part of the body when I don't think that reformed churches should necessarily team up with these churches for missions or ministry opportunities. To clarify, I have many brothers/sisters/close friends that are Arminian, charismatic, or attend seeker sensitive churches. They are my friends and fellow Christians. I pray for them. I fellowship with them. But I can't join them in ministry, missions, or worship.
I have been a member of PB for around a year or better and I rarely post anything because I know I have a lot to learn. So, I have tried to keep my mouth shut and simply read. I had what I thought were genuine concerns. Apparently I was wrong. I'll go back to reading.
Grace and Peace,
Santos
I do not understand how I am being interpreted as being overly zealous for the reformed tradition when I point out that the things that I am seeing in the reformed church that my family is attending, and prayerfully considering joining, have some of the same questionable practices as what I had seen at my previous seeker sensitive church. I'm not asking to attack the church or denomination where we currently worship. I had not even meant to give away that it was a PCA church. That was my foolish mistake.
I do not understand why it does not matter who one quotes when your credibility will be given to any you quote without qualifying your citation.
I do not understand why someone would think that may questions mean that I am saying that Arminians are not a part of the body when I don't think that reformed churches should necessarily team up with these churches for missions or ministry opportunities. To clarify, I have many brothers/sisters/close friends that are Arminian, charismatic, or attend seeker sensitive churches. They are my friends and fellow Christians. I pray for them. I fellowship with them. But I can't join them in ministry, missions, or worship.
I have been a member of PB for around a year or better and I rarely post anything because I know I have a lot to learn. So, I have tried to keep my mouth shut and simply read. I had what I thought were genuine concerns. Apparently I was wrong. I'll go back to reading.
Grace and Peace,
Santos
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Santos,
If I can encourage you; Let it run off you like water on a duck. The PB is known for its detail oriented responses. Most all of us here are concerned with all the 'jots and tittles'. Many times, we can become a bit painful. Not that it isn't important, as we know, 'the devil is in the details'. So, one of my recommendations is to grow a thicker skin and don't be shaken by the obvious challenges that arise. We love u and want you here, participating.
If I can encourage you; Let it run off you like water on a duck. The PB is known for its detail oriented responses. Most all of us here are concerned with all the 'jots and tittles'. Many times, we can become a bit painful. Not that it isn't important, as we know, 'the devil is in the details'. So, one of my recommendations is to grow a thicker skin and don't be shaken by the obvious challenges that arise. We love u and want you here, participating.
All, a couple of things happened in this thread to make it go sideways! Santos, your church affiliation not having been updated seemed to cause some confusion. Others on the thread made quick assumptions in the name of being helpful. Let’s try to hear each other and not talk past. As Scott has said, brother Santos, please carry on! Many of us have been where you’re at.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Santos,
Thanks for your clarification. For some reason, your reply did not appear where it usually should but in the quote with my original comment. Consequently, I did not see it.
Having explained the context, I still do not believe that you have any reason to be getting so worked up about something so minor. If what you say about the person quoted is true, then it would probably be better if that person was not quoted with approval. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about dealing with matters of this nature. You could just ask the man preaching who quotes those whose views you have reservations about to drop in a caveat the next time he refers to said sources.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
Tom?
TheOldCourse
Puritan Board Sophomore
Please do not feel restrained from posting anything. We welcome it. There were misunderstandings on both sides in this thread. Some of them arose through the use of words that can have multiple meanings in the context such as "liberal." I also think that the majority of us were guessing it was a PCA church before you mentioned it simply because what you describe is common there. The questions you ask are not necessarily straightforward ones and require some nuance and careful distinctions.
Many (most?) of us are concerned about the trends you describe and in the PCA especially. Don't give up on the PCA altogether, however, as there are excellent, confessional churches there including those pastored by some of our own members here. If they aren't around you, look to the other NAPARC churches. I also think that "cage-stage" is unhelpfully pejorative, but some are just concerned about a tendency that we first found in ourselves to be overly critical in the early stages of our personal reformations. I don't think anyone would accuse many of us of not being scrupulous when it comes to doctrine and life, but we also have learned that most of us are not called to be Martin Luther or John Knox and accordingly must fulfill our secular callings while being a part of imperfect churches. I was a part of a church like the one you describe for two years because it was still the most "Reformed" church in my area. Once providence had allowed me to move to an area where more faithful churches were present, I did, but in the meantime I bore with the weaknesses of the church God had placed me in for the time. I let the session know of my scruples, but when they did not grant the validity of my concerns, I did my best to live quietly among them, not causing division, and still thanked the Lord that the Gospel was preached there. My advice for you would be the same if you cannot find a more confessional church near you.
With respect to quoting authors, well it depends. Paul quoted pagan poets. Many Reformers quoted scholastic theologians and church fathers who they would not regard as being orthodox on important points like justification. I believe that you need to be careful when doing so that you do not give the impression that you approve of the original writer generally. For instance, my pastor, who is very confessional, quoted who I believe was Karl Barth this past Lord's Day. I say believe because he did not gave the name and, while he approved the quote itself, he noted that the theologian who said it was not orthodox and was not to be trusted on other matters. I have no problem with that. If he had quoted him as if he was an authority with no caveats, it would be concerning. Not "I've gotta leave this church" concerning, but it would be worth bringing up privately with him.
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Kinghezy
Puritan Board Sophomore
Yep, good cuisine bad theology - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Keller.
There are so many auto-corrects I have to fix and that is the one that slips through?
I affirm the others who recommend continuing to contribute. It helps us all.
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
Crossed my desk this afternoon:
I have come to differ with my church theologically – Should I leave? If yes – How?
Okay, so, maybe that’s another question where, in the abstract, you can answer one way but in the particulars of life there’s just so much you need to think about and so much you need to consider. So, first, I would say be very, very careful. You don’t want to destroy a church, right.
Okay, so, maybe that’s another question where, in the abstract, you can answer one way but in the particulars of life there’s just so much you need to think about and so much you need to consider. So, first, I would say be very, very careful. You don’t want to destroy a church, right.
The transcript:
https://www.challies.com/vlog/how-can-i-leave-my-church-well-video/
I am a Reformed Baptist, so I would not be dunking or sprinkling infants either!
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