Epicurus' riddle about evil and God - please solve it
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Timothy William
Puritan Board Junior
God allows evil because he uses it for his own ends. His glory is displayed by his just response to evildoers, which requires that evil exist.
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
That's the exact problem with the Lapsarian issue. Either God saw Adam would sin, and chose not to do anything about it, thus becoming the author of sin, or Adam chose to sin on his own outside of God's will, thus making man's will more powerful than God.
The easiest way to answer the question is to point out that the question is unfair, in that there are only two answers, both of which are wrong. Like asking if God could make a rock too heavy for Himself to move. Either yes or no is a wrong answer. Christ, when questioned in the same manner, as in Matthew 22
Christ pointed out that they were in error, i.e. the question itself was based on false premise
The easiest way to answer the question is to point out that the question is unfair, in that there are only two answers, both of which are wrong. Like asking if God could make a rock too heavy for Himself to move. Either yes or no is a wrong answer. Christ, when questioned in the same manner, as in Matthew 22
Christ pointed out that they were in error, i.e. the question itself was based on false premise
Timothy William
Puritan Board Junior
God doesn't make anyone suffer. He allows people to do evil for which they will later suffer, but he does not cause them to, for he is not the author of evil.
God doesn't need to do anything to make himself glorious. He does things, such as executing justice, to display his glory, which is not the same thing. Executing justice displays a facet of God's character, that he cannot abide evil. He would not be more glorious if he either did not have this facet, or if he did not display it.
God doesn't need to do anything to make himself glorious. He does things, such as executing justice, to display his glory, which is not the same thing. Executing justice displays a facet of God's character, that he cannot abide evil. He would not be more glorious if he either did not have this facet, or if he did not display it.
God doesn't need to do anything to make himself glorious. He does things, such as executing justice, to display his glory, which is not the same thing.
Good distinction.
Why is it better to have these attributes more fully displayed at the cost of the suffering of His creatures?
Good distinction.
Why is it better to have these attributes more fully displayed at the cost of the suffering of His creatures?
John Calvin (Institutes III.23.2):
The will of God is the supreme rule of righteousness, so that everything which he wills must be held to be righteous by the mere fact of his willing it. Therefore, when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, Because he pleased. But if you proceed farther to ask why he pleased, you ask for something greater and more sublime than the will of God, and nothing such can be found. Let human temerity then be quiet, and cease to inquire after what exists not, lest perhaps it fails to find what does exist.
The will of God is the supreme rule of righteousness, so that everything which he wills must be held to be righteous by the mere fact of his willing it. Therefore, when it is asked why the Lord did so, we must answer, Because he pleased. But if you proceed farther to ask why he pleased, you ask for something greater and more sublime than the will of God, and nothing such can be found. Let human temerity then be quiet, and cease to inquire after what exists not, lest perhaps it fails to find what does exist.
God is only pleased in what is good. Yet evil exists.
Jesus pronounced the destruction of Jerusalem and yet then wept over it.
Seems that a better solution would have been to decreee that the inhabitants repent.
If you charge me with evil and say that it seems that way only to sinful man, then I counter that God speaks of not having pleasure over the death of the wicked and was Jesus sinning by grieving over the pronouncement of the just judgment of God (i.e. Jesus was showing discontentment and dissatisfaction in God's verdict on Jerusalem by weeping....he should have said AMEN and LET IT BE)
Jesus pronounced the destruction of Jerusalem and yet then wept over it.
Seems that a better solution would have been to decreee that the inhabitants repent.
If you charge me with evil and say that it seems that way only to sinful man, then I counter that God speaks of not having pleasure over the death of the wicked and was Jesus sinning by grieving over the pronouncement of the just judgment of God (i.e. Jesus was showing discontentment and dissatisfaction in God's verdict on Jerusalem by weeping....he should have said AMEN and LET IT BE)
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
Allow me to play the skeptic:
God, being God, gets to do whatever he so wills, and gets to define it however he wills. Send a storm to kill thousands of people? That was good! Allow his children to suffer and die in the most horrific manner? That's nothing but pure love!
Hence, everything God does is decreed to be "good" -no matter how atrocious it may seem to us, who supposedly have been given from God the very sense of justice that makes us cry out, "That isn't fair!" - because God says so. And you'd better agree with him or he'll fling your soul into hell. You'd BETTER go around singing his praises and declaring him to be love... or else!
Done playing the skeptic.
How would you talk to such a person? I had someone like that last week. And Josh, while your comment may be true, it sure comes across to those on the outside like we've got blinders on. To be specific, that guy told me I was like one of the Germans deceived by Hitler who to the very end believed that he was the the good and noble savior of Germany in the face of all the tangible evidence.
I was tempted to say unto him, "Well, you're OBVIOUSLY reprobate..." but I didn't. Instead I pointed out a few things I thought he should reconsider.
Timothy William
Puritan Board Junior
I don't think there is a contradiction here. It is God who defines good and evil. It follows therefore both that God can decree what is good and what is evil, and that he only decrees things in the first place because they are good.
If evil is defined as disobedience to God, the question is, why does an omnipotent God allow Himself to be disobeyed? So that he can demonstrate not only his justice but his mercy and longsuffering.
Timothy Williams; yes, your answers are all the answers I have come up with - but I am re-probing them for weaknesses.
God, being a communicative God, creates the world in a way so as to maximize the display of all of His attributes. Mercy cannot be displayed without misery.
Now, how do I comfort the dying with that? And why does Jesus weep over judgments that God could have prevented; does this show disunity in the Godhead?
God, being a communicative God, creates the world in a way so as to maximize the display of all of His attributes. Mercy cannot be displayed without misery.
Now, how do I comfort the dying with that? And why does Jesus weep over judgments that God could have prevented; does this show disunity in the Godhead?
Pergamum, the problem with that is then there is a standard of good outside of God, and that is an incoherent concept. God is the summum bonum.
Hippo
Puritan Board Junior
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath fprepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known gthe riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
Ro 9:20-23
This is a really hard question to which I think we have to take the same line as Paul and just trust in the mercy of God and be content that we will understand in eternity. At its heart we are trying to hold God to our own moral yardsticks which we as creatures should obey but which he as creator does not, we have to trust and love God even when we do not understand the complexities of the plan of redemption in the certain knowledge of his justice, holiness and love.
Ro 9:20-23
This is a really hard question to which I think we have to take the same line as Paul and just trust in the mercy of God and be content that we will understand in eternity. At its heart we are trying to hold God to our own moral yardsticks which we as creatures should obey but which he as creator does not, we have to trust and love God even when we do not understand the complexities of the plan of redemption in the certain knowledge of his justice, holiness and love.
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
First, God is glorious without anything ever happening here on earth, for "good" or "evil". People's suffering cannot "make Him glorious".
Second, by whose standard is a god who hasn't planned suffering for people "the best"? Isn't that making a god of your own preference?
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
Yet it pleased God to bruise His own son.
Was God in instance pleased with Evil?
by whose standard is that a better solution?
Mushroom
Puritan Board Doctor
Can someone explain exactly why the Lord wept here? Most arminians would say He was weeping over the lost. But my reading of that passage leads me to think He was rebuking the lost for resisting the salvation of the elect among them, and weeping over the hardships His people had suffered at the hands of the reprobates. Is that incorrect?
shackleton
Puritan Board Junior
I have found this to be helpful, WCF, "5:5 The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption, and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled (2 Sam 24:1; 2 Chr 32:25, 26, 31); and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support unto) Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends (Psa 73:1-28; 77:1-10, 12; Mark 14:66-72; John 21:15-17; 2 Cor 12:7-9)."
If it is all about God and his glory and exhibiting his attributes in the world and mankind, what better way then to do it in our present world?
What is evil exactly? What is a good definition?
If it is all about God and his glory and exhibiting his attributes in the world and mankind, what better way then to do it in our present world?
What is evil exactly? What is a good definition?
The biblical answer (see especially Pss. 37 and 73) -- First, God is eternal; His purposes are not effected in a day, week, month, year, decade, generation, century, or millennium, but over ages. Man is on probation; the character and course of his life in this present world determines his ultimate destiny. Secondly, this purpose is not seen by looking at natural phenomenon but by observing the way of God in His sanctuary, Ps. 73:17, that is, faith believing in the sacred presence of God in human history is the essential starting point for understanding His ways; those shut out of His sanctuary have no right to speak of sacred things.
The logical fallacy of the dilemma is exposed by James Buchanan in "Faith in God and Modern Atheism Compared:"
panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Pergy said:
To basically reiterate Matthew's post - the answer:
Romans 8:28
All things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.
All things - even things that MAN, in his ignorance, may judge as wicked - work together for God's eternal purpose - so ultimately temporal evil serves the greater eternal good.
God does not want to abolish evil. He will abolish it, once it has served its purpose.
Question: Is Hell itself an instrument of evil or good?
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Calvinist Cowboy
Puritan Board Junior
Sit back. Relax. Grab some popcorn.
This is a long post.I'm not an expert in apologetics, but I recently heard a message by
R.C. Sproul called "The Problem of Evil" that dealt with this very issue, so of this I borrowed from Dr. Sproul.
First off, God is omnipotent. There is no lack of capability in God. If God is not able to do what He wants, then He is not God, and this discussion doesn't really matter anyway.
Then we need to take a look at the second statement, "If he (God) can, but does not want to (get rid off evil), he is wicked." (This is often phrased, If God can get rid off evil, but doesn't, then He is not loving.) To this I would respond, "Why?" Why is God wicked if He does not get rid off evil? Is there some cosmic rule that states that God cannot allow evil to exist? Is God evil? By no means! Yet, in a very real sense, evil is present in this world. Where did evil come from? I don't know, and Scripture doesn't say, other than that we are all completely sinful because of the Fall, and this world and everything in it is in rebellion against God because of that.
Okay, since evil is present, God must allow it to exist. Why? An excellent answer to this is the life of Job. God asks Satan if he had considered Job, "a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil" (Job 1:8). Satan responds by saying that Job fears God only because God has hedged him in and blessed him richly. To prove that this (Job fearing God because God had blessed him) was not the case, God allowed Satan to do all kinds of horrible things to Job: destroy all his possessions, kill his children, and inflict him with an excruciating disease.
Now, God could have kept that hedge around Job and prevented Satan from harming him, but what was gained through the suffering and pain and evil that assaulted Job? What did Job learn? Not to call to God unjust (which Job did in chpt. 10 verses 2 & 3) for making him suffer. Job repented in ashes and dust, declaring that God's ways were too lofty for him to criticize unthinkingly (see Job 42:1-6).
What did God prove through this episode? That He has a reason for suffering, and that He will even work through the wickedness of others to accomplish His goals. Does God endorse evil? No, He hates it. But He does cause all things, including evil, to work together for good to those called according to His purpose. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."
What do we learn from this? Check out Job 34:10-15 and see for yourself.
Another thing to think about: do we deserve God to be good to us? Hmm? Do we deserve His hedge of protection from evil?
Also, God will abolish evil from this world. Rom. 8:18-23, "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies."
God did not create this world to be sinful. Sin is the result of the Fall. God did not sit idly by, helplessly wringing His hands..."Oh what am I going to do!? Those stupid people wrecked My creation!" God actively engaged Himself in redeeming His Creation from evil. Not only did He set apart for Himself a people to be undefiled, clothed in the righteousness of Christ, but also will totally obliterate evil in the world in the New Heaven and the New Earth. Listen to what Peter says, "Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Pet. 3:13)
So why is there evil in the world? There is evil in the world because an omnipotent, sovereign, holy, holy, holy God ordained it to suit His purpose. What is that purpose? Redeeming for Himself "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" (1 Pet. 2:9).
What better reason is there than that?
agreed, just makin' small talk.
Jesus wept for Jerusalem, it appears that Jesus desired in some way not to further glorify God through making people suffer.
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