Gary DeMar affirms future return

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I find this quite perplexing on your part, Dan, not Tyler Ray's, who only upholds orthodoxy in this discussion.

The same is true about your retorts to others. What brief do you hold for Mr. DeMar?

I don't understand why you posted this and are defending DeMar while attacking others here who rightly point out that this video does not vindicate his unorthodox views.

You seem almost belligerent here. Why? What's going on?

Peace,
Alan
I try to be unbiased in this as I do not know much of Gary DeMar, other than a few quotes and what other have said about his (alleged) full preterism. For him to not come out and affirm by simply saying, “Yes, Jesus is coming again”, when that’s the simplest way to say it, I find that alarming.
 
If you are under suspicion of denying a bodily return of Jesus and a bodily resurrection of the dead, the onus is on you to affirm in clear, unequivocal, unambiguous language that you believe these orthodox doctrines.

It is not on others to try to tease it out of you by implication and inference. That is not how this game works.
 
I try to be unbiased in this as I do not know much of Gary DeMar, other than a few quotes and what other have said about his (alleged) full preterism. For him to not come out and affirm by simply saying, “Yes, Jesus is coming again”, when that’s the simplest way to say it, I find that alarming.
He did. He said it at least three times. I also try to listen to his podcast whenever he addresses this topic and he continues to refer to full preterists as "them" and partial preterists as "we." I think what people really don't like about him are two things:

(1) He doesn't declare Don Preston, et al, to be non-believers. He draws the important distinction between full preterism and hyper-preterism (which is indeed damnable heresy). Many people who know better continue to conflate the two.

(2) Recognizing the Confessions do not include a consistent, comprehensive eschatological view (and offer a bare bones one that is not even 100% accepted by those who affirm them), he wants/hopes to build a consistent, comprehensive Biblical eschatology from the ground up, i.e. beginning with exegesis of the relevant Biblical texts rather than with the WCF. I probably give him more slack than most because eschatology is one of the remaining areas where we have such vast disagreement, and he is not afraid to point this out. I'm not afraid that such a project will eventually deny Christ's final return, final judgment, or bodily resurrection of the dead. Rather I look forward to it as not only confirming these but providing the correct textual bases for them.
 
(2) Recognizing the Confessions do not include a consistent, comprehensive eschatological view

If by that you mean they do not have a fully fleshed out doctrine of amillennialism or postmillennialism, you are correct. On the other hand, Confessions, and even Creeds, namely Nicea, do say one really important thing about eschatology.

You say Demar said it at least three times. None of us heard him say it. We want to hear some variation of the words "I believe in the personal, bodily return of Christ and the physical, bodily resurrection of believers." Why will he not say that?
 
If by that you mean they do not have a fully fleshed out doctrine of amillennialism or postmillennialism, you are correct. On the other hand, Confessions, and even Creeds, namely Nicea, do say one really important thing about eschatology.
Bingo. As I say every time we recite the Creed: we disagree much about eschatology, but every true Christian affirms that he will come again, from the right hand of the Father, to judge the living and the dead. Basic Christianity.
 
(1) He doesn't declare Don Preston, et al, to be non-believers. He draws the important distinction between full preterism and hyper-preterism (which is indeed damnable heresy). Many people who know better continue to conflate the two.
I've studied the issue a bit but, truthfully this baffles me. There's a difference? The only conclusion I can draw between them would be that perhaps the former is ambiguous about an end of the world coming, in addition to the 70 AD one, and/or that living like a Christian is a must...do enlighten us please.
 
I've studied the issue a bit but, truthfully this baffles me. There's a difference? The only conclusion I can draw between them would be that perhaps the former is ambiguous about an end of the world coming, in addition to the 70 AD one, and/or that living like a Christian is a must...do enlighten us please.
Hyper = no one after 70 AD can be saved, resurrected, and/or sin; the Bible provides no guidance after this point.
 
If by that you mean they do not have a fully fleshed out doctrine of amillennialism or postmillennialism, you are correct. On the other hand, Confessions, and even Creeds, namely Nicea, do say one really important thing about eschatology.

You say Demar said it at least three times. None of us heard him say it. We want to hear some variation of the words "I believe in the personal, bodily return of Christ and the physical, bodily resurrection of believers." Why will he not say that?
We went over this last year: "He started off by saying that if he answers yes-no to these, he's afraid he'll set a precedent and people will start demanding him answer even more yes-no questions." I believe he should have just said yes to these, but he's still a deacon in good standing at a PCA church. I find it very hard to believe that his elders have not discussed this with him in private and found him to be orthodox.
 
We went over this last year: "He started off by saying that if he answers yes-no to these, he's afraid he'll set a precedent and people will start demanding him answer even more yes-no questions.

Whether officially or not, he is a public teacher of God's word. It is literally his job to give yes-no answers to the most basic, foundational issues of orthodoxy.
 
Whether officially or not, he is a public teacher of God's word. It is literally his job to give yes-no answers to the most basic, foundational issues of orthodoxy.
Who is in a better position to judge him? The Puritan Board or his own elders?
 
Who is in a better position to judge him? The Puritan Board or his own elders?
Bro - so often any of us can point to where someone does/says/teaches something terrible and the elders of the church don't do anything that results in it being rolled back. That's just the fact. The mere fact he has elders and still teaches this does not mean he's sound.

Not just the PB, but just about everybody has come to the same conclusion about this guy. If his own elders haven't reined him in, then that's on them.
 
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Full preterists are masters of obfuscation. Just like an Adventist asking you to come to their prophecy meetings but not telling you who they are. All he has to do is answer Gentry’s letter and this is all put to bed.
 
He did. He said it at least three times. I also try to listen to his podcast whenever he addresses this topic and he continues to refer to full preterists as "them" and partial preterists as "we." I think what people really don't like about him are two things:

(1) He doesn't declare Don Preston, et al, to be non-believers. He draws the important distinction between full preterism and hyper-preterism (which is indeed damnable heresy). Many people who know better continue to conflate the two.

(2) Recognizing the Confessions do not include a consistent, comprehensive eschatological view (and offer a bare bones one that is not even 100% accepted by those who affirm them), he wants/hopes to build a consistent, comprehensive Biblical eschatology from the ground up, i.e. beginning with exegesis of the relevant Biblical texts rather than with the WCF. I probably give him more slack than most because eschatology is one of the remaining areas where we have such vast disagreement, and he is not afraid to point this out. I'm not afraid that such a project will eventually deny Christ's final return, final judgment, or bodily resurrection of the dead. Rather I look forward to it as not only confirming these but providing the correct textual bases for them.
I watched it as well, but he seemed to skirt the issue somewhat. I have no bias one way or the other, as I previously stated. But for him to not just come out and flatly say Jesus is coming again causes me some concern, warranted or not.

I never heard of the Preterist stance that no one after AD 70 can be saved. :eek:
 
I watched it as well, but he seemed to skirt the issue somewhat. I have no bias one way or the other, as I previously stated. But for him to not just come out and flatly say Jesus is coming again causes me some concern, warranted or not.

I never heard of the Preterist stance that no one after AD 70 can be saved. :eek:

It's the most rare of the various preterisms.
 
It's the most rare of the various preterisms.
If there's a preterist stance that categorically rules out salvation post-70AD, I can see why it's so rare. On the other hand, I bet such a stance would generate fascinating exegesis of Rom. 9:3. "Wish granted!"
 
I'm pretty sure the only people who distinguish between hyper-preterism and full preterism are hyper-preterists. It's true that there is a variety of views among hyper-preterists, but they're all heretical in that they all deny that Christ will return bodily to raise the dead and sit in judgment.

"Hyper" implies over-the-top and heretical. I can see why some hyper-preterists would disclaim the term and accuse others of it
 
I'm pretty sure the only people who distinguish between hyper-preterism and full preterism are hyper-preterists. It's true that there is a variety of views among hyper-preterists, but they're all heretical in that they all deny that Christ will return bodily to raise the dead and sit in judgment.

"Hyper" implies over-the-top and heretical. I can see why some hyper-preterists would disclaim the term and accuse others of it
This suggestion that they're all heretics so they must believe exactly the same thing displays a lack of intellectual rigor. There are dozens of different questions here to which people give different answers. When it comes to those answers, there's actually more of a continuum between orthodox partial preterism and full preterism than there is between full preterism and hyper-preterism. If you're going to lump them all together like this and claim there's nothing to distinguish, you might as well do the same with pre-mils.
 
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This suggestion that they're all heretics so they must believe exactly the same thing displays a lack of intellectual rigor. There are dozens of different questions here to which people give different answers. When it comes to those answers, there's actually more of a continuum between orthodox partial preterism and full preterism than there is between full preterism and hyper-preterism. If you're going to lump them all together like this and claim there's nothing to distinguish, you might as well do the same with pre-mils.
Did you read my post? I explicitly said that they don't all believe the same thing.

Can you name a single orthodox theologian who distinguishes full preterism from hyper-preterism? (Don't say Gary DeMar)
 
@DanSSwing

As I said in post #30, why this defense of DeMar? You adduce a video we find unconvincing, and then you seem out of sorts when we don't share your assessment.

This is odd. Why are you so defensive of him and insistent that we agree?

We don't know what the responsible church governors' assessment of DeMar is precisely, but as others have noted, that he publicly says these things makes him publicly accountable, as I consider myself to be, as one who writes a good bit; I can't simply hide behind my presbytery but must show my teaching to be biblical and confessional, or I am not worthy of being a teacher.

Peace,
Alan
 
@DanSSwing, I'm going to repeat an important quote from DeMar that I gave earlier in the thread, to which you didn't respond:

"Oh no! Some Christians believe they get a new body after they die rather than maybe tens of thousands of years in the future! It's what I've heard pastors say at funerals, three of them in the past year. I guess we're all going to hell. Show me a verse that says when you die your spirit goes to heaven and at the Second Coming God will reconstitute your body that most likely no longer exists and join it with your disembodied spirit. That's so depressing. Really? Seems like being disembodied for maybe thousands of years would be depressing. You must mean a Third Coming. Wasn't the coming of Jesus in AD 70 a coming, what Heb. 9:28 describes as a "second time"? Gentry et al. say it was. The Nicene Creed and the WCF make no mention of these distinct comings."

Do you acknowledge that in this quote DeMar is denying a general resurrection when Christ returns at the end of history?
 
As an outside observer, DeMAR is not dumb and knows what the issue is and what he is being charged with. Knowing all of this, he should be clear and explicit and state he believes in the bodily return.

In this context failing to add bodily is speaking unclearly and allows him escape from accountability.
 
Here is a good summary of the situation from about a year ago:

When I saw this thread I was hopeful that maybe this signals a return to orthodoxy for Demar.
Not sure if that's true.
 
One of the clearest marks of a false teacher is obfuscation. My 13 year old son could spell out the second coming of Christ more clearly and with less confusion than this teacher of Israel.

2 Corinthians 3:12 - Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech
 
What has been the response to this letter, formal statement, etc., by Gary Demar, or importantly, his church (PCA?) where he has take vows to uphold the Westminster Standards as a deacon (correct?)? This is certainly a scandal and there is responsibility to remove it on not just Demar and but those to whom he has taken vows of office. While not a teaching office the deacon vow (if I'm reading correctly) is the same in that any change in supporting the fundamentals of the Westminster Standards must be self reported to the church's session.
Here is a good summary of the situation from about a year ago:

When I saw this thread I was hopeful that maybe this signals a return to orthodoxy for Demar.
Not sure if that's true.
 
One of the clearest marks of a false teacher is obfuscation. My 13 year old son could spell out the second coming of Christ more clearly and with less confusion than this teacher of Israel.

2 Corinthians 3:12 - Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech
Amen to this. We wouldn't tolerate this sort of hedging by a Neo-Orthodox or Liberal teacher, why would we tolerate it from someone with presumably orthodox views in other areas but who is wishy washy on something so critical?

Do you believe in a future bodily, glorious return of Christ?
Do you believe in a future physical, general resurrection of the dead?
Do you believe history will end with the Final Judgment of all men?

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Those are some of the softest balls in the doctrinal batting cage and these aren't trap questions except to someone holding actual heresy.
 
Those are some of the softest balls in the doctrinal batting cage and these aren't trap questions except to someone holding actual heresy.
So reading his comment in response to that, he is saying: anything about eschatology is uncertain, controversial, and requires study. Eschatology for him is any doctrine dealing with the last things. Each of those questions deal with the future: the doctrine of the last things. So he is saying that those topics are debatable, and he cannot answer them without further study, since they are part of the controversial topic of eschatology. Since he uses the word "ambiguity" and "inconsistency," he is saying that these doctrines may be part of the ambiguity and inconsistency that he has in mind, which further study will bring the appropriate clarity and nuance to determine in what sense and whether to affirm them.

Seems pretty straightforward. Taking him at his words, he can't affirm those doctrines right now, and they are up for grabs and for nuance, depending on his studies. He cannot give a clear answer to them, which is "especially" why he won't: people will ask him follow up questions to continue to try and clarify and will never end (the "bad precedent" he speaks of). Fair enough when dealing with questions that you can never answer clearly enough to satisfy others that people try to trap you with. The problem is: these aren't unclear. This is how heretics operate: what is clear becomes unclear.
 
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