Grape juice or Wine

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Life Mathers

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I recently heard my pastor in a Sunday school class state why and how we do The Lord’s Supper and his reasoning behind using grape juice instead of wine, that being we wouldn’t want to be a stumbling block to weaker brothers and sisters. I have not read enough to be convinced either way, in this I ask what is the proper Reformed View? Does it have to be wine as is laid out, or can it be something similar, as to keep brothers from sin?
 
I will say I'm not entirely sure. However, it is weird how certain sects tend to think anyone and everyone is an alcoholic and therefore we must defer to them.
 
There isn't a long history of reformed opinions on the topic because unfermented grape juice was a rare commodity until basically the late 19th century. However, by the time it was common, there were certainly presbyterians using it for the same reasons as others. The temperance movement included presbyterians.
 
In my experience with Reformed churches of Dutch background, wine is the norm. Some churches will offer a non-alcoholic alternative for those who can't drink alcohol for one reason or another. But I have never encountered a Reformed church where wine is completely off the table. If there is such a church, it would be rare, I think.
 
My conscience says wine. My church offers both which is great. Soon we will all partake in full what we now know in part! I will gladly give up those small yet sacred portions for the marriage feast of the Lamb!
 
Related, for those who are in churches who take wine - what do your pregnant women do? Honestly curious.

Me personally, I grew up in a tradition with exclusively grape juice, and attend a church now that only has grape juice. I have been to 2 services where wine was offered and it was great.

I don’t tend to think using grape juice is profaning the sacrament (like taking milk, for example), but I think wine is better.

My attitude can be summed up like this:

Jesus’s death wasn’t Welch’s, it was bitter wine, so that would be better to take.
 
Related, for those who are in churches who take wine - what do your pregnant women do? Honestly curious.
That minute amount of wine will have absolutely no effect on the health of the pregnancy.

Likewise, I have not seen evidence that such a small amount, and especially in the Sacramental context, will cause a repentant alcoholic to stumble back into sin. From my perspective, should an alcoholic be struggling with that sin such that participation in the Lord's Supper will cause him to stumble, alcohol remains his master, and I question whether it is appropriate for him to partake anyway, until such a time that the Sacrament is a means of grace once more rather than a temptation toward sin.
 
For a long time (certainly since I've a member) my church would provide a few slots in the tray with juice filled thimbles. However, a few months ago I learned we no longer do that, the session having settled the issue with the few for whom that offering was for. I don't think offering it is something to break communion over or fuss about; but neither do I fault the move if the session has brought folks along. I suppose they will now deal with new instances as they arise.
 
I recently heard my pastor in a Sunday school class state why and how we do The Lord’s Supper and his reasoning behind using grape juice instead of wine, that being we wouldn’t want to be a stumbling block to weaker brothers and sisters. I have not read enough to be convinced either way, in this I ask what is the proper Reformed View? Does it have to be wine as is laid out, or can it be something similar, as to keep brothers from sin?

I think history is important
Here are my instructions and my beliefs about the Supper

I asked:

I. Full Transcript​

User (EW): Could I have a brief history of Christian groups or denominations that used grape juice instead of wine for the Lord's Supper? Some will say it's not to cause a heavy drinker a stumbling block. Some deny that wine was fermented in the Bible and therefore do not use real wine. A brief outline of the New Testament's history. Up to now.

For instance, our church, which is part of the PCA, serves both real wine and real bread, as well as grape juice and gluten-free bread. Each participant decides for themselves which they will choose.
~~~~~~~
Since the wine served by Jesus was indeed fermented, communion should be with real wine. I understand that the Puritans would give a real piece of bread, not just a symbolic crumb, and several ounces of wine, not just a thimbleful. The idea, I assume, is that our meal should be authentic, even if limited to two items. But right now, with the thimble and the Wafers, we have but a symbolic meal, representing another authentic meal, which in turn represents the work of Christ. I don't think we should lower our standards to the lowest common denominator. Well, that's my two cents. But I'm interested in your take on everything above the line break I have added.
EW


II. AI Handout or tract:​

Communion Elements: Wine vs. Grape Juice ​

A Historical Overview​

1. New Testament & Early Church​

- Always used fermented wine.
- Biblical term *oinos* = wine.
- Grape juice was not preservable.
- Early writers (Didache, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus) all reference wine.

2. Medieval to Reformation - The Entire Christian world used wine.​

- Reformers maintained wine.
- Puritans used real loaves and real wine in substantial amounts.

3. The 19th-Century Turning Point​

- The Temperance Movement pushed against alcohol.
- 1869: Thomas Welch creates pasteurized grape juice.
- Many American denominations (Methodists, Baptists, Holiness, Pentecostal, and Restorationists) adopt grape juice for communion.

4. Modern Practices​

**Wine retained:** Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, most Reformed/Presbyterian (PCA, OPC, ARP).
**Grape juice dominant:** Evangelicals, Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostals, many non-denominational churches.

5. Key Theological Notes​

- Jesus instituted wine; the early church followed.
- Substituting grape juice is a *modern American innovation*.
- PCA-style dual offering (wine + juice) is pastoral accommodation rather than doctrinal change.

6. Summary Timeline​

- 1st–19th century: wine only.
- 1820–1900: temperance pressures.
- 1869: grape juice becomes viable.
- 1870–present: evangelical bodies adopt grape juice; liturgical/confessional bodies retain wine.
 
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When I first began serving at our church 16 years ago we studied the topic exegetically as a Session and determined it should be wine only. Here is the sermon that was the greatest influence for our decision: https://www.naphtali.com/articles/william-sprague/danger-of-being-overwise/.

Here is another document we found later that also affirms this position and practice (and explains it was a change for their church), "Why Did We Change the Grape Juice to Wine in the Communion Cup?": https://heritagecenterville.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/wine-in-communion-pamphlet.pdf
 
Related, for those who are in churches who take wine - what do your pregnant women do? Honestly curious.
They drink from the common cup of wine when it is passed to them and drink as much or as little as they'd like. I see no risks to a pregnant mother or a baby in the womb from literally one sip of wine. The Lord cannot be unwise in His institutions.
 
Since the argument for grape juice in the OP stems from an argument of concern for those with former alcoholic backgrounds, I find this helpful. From Travis Fentiman, Wine in the Lord's Supper web page (other good resources on that page)
What about Former Alcohololics in the Congregation?
Paul says in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 that there were former drunkards in the congregation at Corinth, but that now they are sanctified by the Spirit of God, and in 1 Cor. 11, Paul tells them to partake of the Lord’s Supper, yet without getting drunk (1 Cor. 11:20-21,25):

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators… nor thieves… nor drunkards… shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

How is a former drunkard supposed to drink a small amount of wine, at Christ’s all-wise directive, without indulging himself into a downward drunken spiral? By exercising the capstone fruit of the Spirit: ‘temperance’, or self-control (Gal. 5:23).

The same moral characteristic that had once been chronically neglected and abused to become a drunkard, is the same one prescribed as the remedy in order to walk soberly before the Lord.

Having repentant thieves in the congregation is no reason not to collect an offering; rather, Paul exhorts them to work for a living, save, and to give to those in need (Eph. 4:28): going 180 degrees contrary to their habitual sin in order to positively put on will of God in doing good.

A vacuum of abstinence from alcohol by removal of circumstances with little experience in self-control is a hole ready to fall into; moderation in all things coupled with experience in what is right and good in the community of friendly Christians, is strength (Phil. 4:5).

How can I help a former drunkard to partake of Christ’s ordained means of grace without falling into drunkenness?

Encourage your friend in the Lord, including that it is the will of God for him to be able to worship God through Christ’s ordinance in self-control through the strength of the Holy Spirit, and pray with him or her to this effect.

Make sure that the first few Lord’s Day’s your friend drinks a bit of wine in the Lord’s Supper that he is around people the whole day, either his family, friends, or yourself. Check in with your friend mid-week, if need be. For a few more communion Lord’s Days, give your friend a phone call later in the day, to see how he or she is doing.

Do this as long as one needs to, though one might be surprised at how quickly self-control and stability in controlling one’s appetite is attained through the grace of God and committed resolve. If there is a relapse, no worries: where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. Be with your friend through it, and help them press toward the high calling that we have in Christ.

If the battle wages hot, in order to put one’s body into subjection (1 Cor. 9:27) through self-control-boot-camp, start fasting. There is something about denying the most basic, daily need of our body for several days at a time, coupled with prayer, that is spiritually invigorating (Mk. 9:29) in order to bring ourselves wholly inline to the known will of God.

When Paul’s words become true of your friend, ‘and such were some of you’, past tense, rejoice and give thanks to God!

From the same webpage, also see this:
On Mixing Water with the Wine

Intro

Adding water to the wine in the Lord’s Supper, and thus diluting it, was an ancient practice that approximated the modern practice of using grape juice.

Adding water to the sacramental wine began in the Early Church and was commonly practiced in the Romanist Church before the Reformation. The Reformers and puritans typically rejected the practice.
 
Someone on the Puritan board has argued that since they added Water to Wine in the olden days it was to try to offer something agreeable to people who wanted wine and to people who wanted water. I have heard that mixing water with their strong wine was a custome for everybody. Believers and unbelievers in the new testament commonly mixed wine with their water. Therefore we should not think that it was a custom only for the Lord's Supper. Am I right or do you need to correct me?

The answer I got is following.
~~~~~~~

Short answer:
You are right—mixing water with wine in the Greco-Roman and Jewish world was a universal cultural practice, not a special church ordinance, and certainly not something designed to “please both wine-drinkers and water-drinkers.” It was simply how wine was normally consumed in the ancient world, by believers and unbelievers alike.

Below is a clear, historically grounded explanation.
---
✅ 1. Was wine normally mixed with water?

Yes. In the ancient Mediterranean world, mixing wine with water was the norm, and drinking undiluted wine was considered barbaric or the behavior of a drunkard.

Sources:
Greco-Roman evidence

Plutarch: “We call a mixture wine, although the larger component is water.” (Symposiacs, 3.9)

Homer, Athenaeus, and numerous classical authors describe wine mixed at ratios from 3:1 or 2:1 (water:wine) up to 20:1.

Drinking wine unmixed (ἄκρατος οἶνος) was associated with:

Thrace and Scythia (considered “barbarian” countries)
drunkenness
madness (Plato in Laws, 637E)

Jewish evidence
The Mishnah (Terumot 11.2) describes wine normally “watered.”

Isaiah 1:22, “Your wine is mixed with water,” is not normal but condemns dilution that cheats buyers—implying they normally added some water, but not too much.

The Passover meal by the first century included multiple cups of wine, and the rabbinic discussions assume mixed wine, not straight wine.

Conclusion:
Mixing wine with water was utterly ordinary in Jewish and Roman culture and had nothing to do with Christian liturgy.
---
✅ 2. Did early Christians mix water with wine at the Lord’s Supper?

Yes—but not because communion required it, and certainly not to accommodate those who “prefer water.”
They did it because everyone in the ancient world mixed wine with water, so the church simply followed normal drinking practice.

Later, in the second and third centuries, some Christian writers (Cyprian, Justin Martyr) began to give symbolic explanations for the practice that was already culturally normal.

Example:
Justin Martyr (First Apology, 65): speaks of “wine mixed with water” being used in communion.

Cyprian develops a theology of the mixture symbolizing the union of Christ and the church.

But these symbolic explanations came after the fact.
The reason the elements were mixed originally is simply because that’s how wine was normally drunk.

This proves your point:
The practice didn’t begin because of the Lord’s Supper—it was part of daily life.
---

✅ 3. Did early Christians mix wine and water to please both wine-drinkers and water-drinkers?

No.
There is zero evidence that mixing wine with water was ever done to satisfy two groups in the church, one wanting wine and one wanting water.

That idea is a modern projection.

In antiquity:
Nobody drank plain water when wine was available.

Water was often unsafe, and wine purified it.

“Wine” meant mixed wine.

So there was no “group wanting water”—everyone expected wine to be mixed.
---

✅ 4. Should this practice influence how we view modern communion?

No.
The practice of mixing wine with water in the ancient world does not change the fact that biblical “wine” was fermented wine.

Whether mixed or unmixed, it was alcoholic—using grape juice is a post-19th-century invention (Methodists, Welch).

What matters:
Jesus instituted the Supper with ordinary fermented wine, as everyone used.

The Puritans used full wine.

The PCA allows either (wine or juice) for pastoral reasons, not historical reasons.

✅ 5. Summary

Your understanding is correct:

✅ Mixing water with wine was universal cultural practice
✅ It was not invented for the Lord’s Supper
✅ It definitely wasn’t to satisfy two preference groups
✅ Christians simply did what everyone else did
✅ The biblical and historical “wine” was fermented, diluted normally, but alcoholic
✅ This supports (not undermines) the use of real wine in communion
✅ 5. Summary

Your understanding is correct:
 
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I recently heard my pastor in a Sunday school class state why and how we do The Lord’s Supper and his reasoning behind using grape juice instead of wine, that being we wouldn’t want to be a stumbling block to weaker brothers and sisters. I have not read enough to be convinced either way, in this I ask what is the proper Reformed View? Does it have to be wine as is laid out, or can it be something similar, as to keep brothers from sin?
Make sure that you don’t use real bread too. Might be a stumbling block for the gluttons.
 
Does Matthew 26:29 necessitate fermented wine, or fruit of the vine? Remember, there are equally the same amount of arguments as to whether baptism is full immersion or sprinkling will suffice. I want to say every example of baptism in the NT, even of our Lord is of full immersion, yet there has been concession made for sprinkling or pouring. It seems because the sacraments are symbolic, rather than salvific, keeping with the spirit of what they exemplify is more important than striving to mimic the exact nature of how they were administered (think shared cup, shared loaf, full immersion, etc.) So in this way, as some denominations feel free to sprinkle, other denominations feel juice instead of wine is fine as long as it is symbolic of the blood, via fruit of the vine.
 
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Authentic and actual recreation of an historical event is not the point. The central issue is obedience to God. If a congregation picked grapes and crushed them for use in communion and they didn’t have time to ferment completely into wine, I doubt God would be displeased (though he might not be pleased that we didn’t plan ahead for something as important as the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper). That is a completely different thing than refusing to serve wine at communion. Refusing to serve wine in the sacrament, or worse, condemning any use of wine whatsoever (teetotalism), is a direct condemnation of what the Bible teaches and what our Lord Jesus Christ himself commanded the Disciples to do at the Lord’s Supper. Is there anything more presumptuous and prideful than condemning Christ’s actions in a sacrament? Assuming the right to evaluate independently of God’s word is the sin of Eve. The idea that we have higher moral standards than Jesus should be repugnant to every believer. We have no right to condemn what God calls good. We don’t have the right to make exceptions to God’s commands. Does God care about such matters? Just ask Uzzah.
 
We don’t have the right to make exceptions to God’s commands. Does God care about such matters?
So do you believe that also applies to using a common cup?

"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the New Testament in my blood: this do as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye show the Lord’s death till he come. Wherefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 11.25-27)
 
Please be aware that if you do use grape juice for communion (not something I would espouse), and you store the unused portion, even in the fridge, and do not have your next communion until more than a few weeks after, your grape juice will likely have commenced fermentation, and will in fact be wine (though probably not very good wine).... The yeast will have come out of the air when the bottle was open.
 
So do you believe that also applies to using a common cup?

"After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the New Testament in my blood: this do as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye show the Lord’s death till he come. Wherefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 11.25-27)
As I said, the issue is not recreating in every detail what went on during the Last Supper. The issue is not grape juice. The issue is obedience to God. It is one thing to permit the use of grape juice. It is quite another to forbid the use of wine. The reason that after 2,000 years of tradition, the contents of the cup at the Lord’s Supper was changed (and at first only in the United States) was to condemn what Jesus commanded his Disciples to do. Wine was, for the first time in church history, removed from the Lord’s Supper because of social pressure to advance the cause of prohibition legislation. The law of man trumped the law of God.
 
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As I said, the issue is not recreating in every detail what went on during the Last Supper. The issue is not grape juice. The issue is obedience to God. It is one thing to permit the use of grape juice. It is quite another to forbid the use of wine. The reason that after 2,000 years of tradition, the contents of the cup at the Lord’s Supper was changed (and at first only in the United States) was to condemn what Jesus commanded his Disciples to do. Wine was, for the first time in church history, removed from the Lord’s Supper because of social pressure to advance the cause of prohibition legislation. The law of man. trumped the law of God.
Quick question. You say God commands fermented wine for the Lords Supper, i.e. the law of God. (Or those who would make it a denominational practice to use juice are in sin.) But where does the Bible directly say wine in any of the Gospel passages regarding communion? Matth. 26, Mar. 14, Luk. 22. I agree, that unfermented juice is a departure from tradition, but it also coincides with the technology for the prolonged non-fermentation of juice. If I am not mistaken, there is technically no indicator in the communion accounts as to whether it was fermented wine or juice. It could have been either one. Yet, never have I seen this go beyond a secondary issue; meaning, it appears only radical fundamentalists would disfellowship (mark and avoid) over juice/wine usage. Particular denominations are free to do what they deem best on the issue. Why does it matter what another denomination feels is best when as you state, it isnt about exactly mimicking the practice?
 
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Quick question. You say God commands fermented wine for the Lords Supper, i.e. the law of God. (Or those who would make it a denominational practice to use juice are in sin.) But where does the Bible directly say wine in any of the Gospel passages regarding communion? Matth. 26, Mar. 14, Luk. 22. I agree, that unfermented juice is a departure from tradition, but it also coincides with the technology for the prolonged non-fermentation of juice. If I am not mistaken, there is technically no indicator in the communion accounts as to whether it was fermented wine or juice. It could have been either one. Yet, never have I seen this go beyond a secondary issue; meaning, it appears only radical fundamentalists would disfellowship (mark and avoid) over juice/wine usage. Particular denominations are free to do what they deem best on the issue. Why does it matter what another denomination feels is best when as you state, it isnt about exactly mimicking the practice?
My apologies, it could not have been either one... or more succinctly, either it is freshly squeezed grapejuice, or it is grapejuice that is in the process of fermentation, and as such, becoming wine (or vinegar...)
 
My apologies, it could not have been either one... or more succinctly, either it is freshly squeezed grapejuice, or it is grapejuice that is in the process of fermentation, and as such, becoming wine (or vinegar...)
No need for an apology brother, but this seems a bit nitpicking. The point is to wonder whether it was juice that would have been consumed without the need to mix with water. Or at the degree in which it would have been felt that water were needed to abstain from the then barbaric practice of drinking fermented wine "straight." Looking into a bit, it seems most fermented wines in NT times, would reach 5-12%. Then, it was a common practice to dilute wine by 2-4 parts water, to 1 part wine. The contemporary use of grape juice voids the need to dilute. 1. Because it meets the requirement from being fruit of the vine as mentioned in the Gospel accounts. 2. Because it stops potential abuse of the Supper as noted in 1 Cor. And 3. Because there is no direct command that the fruit of the vine must be fermented. When we are talking about such low levels of alcohol content possibly present, what are we even talking about? I mean look at the practice then, and look what is celebrated even by Christians today who boast of sipping whisky. Back then they were ashamed to drink something above 3-4%. Today we relish in the "liberty" to sip something 70-100 Proof.

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No need for an apology brother, but this seems a bit nitpicking. The point is to wonder whether it was juice that would have been consumed without the need to mix with water. Or at the degree in which it would have been felt that water were needed to abstain from the then barbaric practice of drinking fermented wine "straight." Looking into a bit, it seems most fermented wines in NT times, would reach 5-12%. Then, it was a common practice to dilute wine by 2-4 parts water, to 1 part wine. The contemporary use of grape juice voids the need to dilute. 1. Because it meets the requirement from being fruit of the vine as mentioned in the Gospel accounts. 2. Because it stops potential abuse of the Supper as noted in 1 Cor. And 3. Because there is no direct command that the fruit of the vine must be fermented. When we are talking about such low levels of alcohol content possibly present, what are we even talking about? I mean look at the practice then, and look what is celebrated even by Christians today who boast of sipping whisky. Back then they were ashamed to drink something above 3-4%. Today we relish in the "liberty" to sip something 70-100 Proof.

View attachment 12383
Sorry brother, not meaning to be argumentative here, but merely wanted to point out grape juice's natural propensity to fermentation... Remember an incident where a small church which used Welch's for communion would store the unused left overs in the fridge for the next time. If I recall, they had communion once a month. It was pointed out to the pastor on one occasion that the grape juice was no longer grape juice... Believe they have since switched to non-alcoholic wine, as it has a longer shelf life.

On a separate note, how about:

"Psalm 104:15 -​

And wine that makes glad the heart of man," To what extent does that add to the value of wine at communion?
 
I would probably say not much because Communion seems more of a somber not tipsy event.
While you are probably correct on it being more of a somber event, am wondering if that is the correct 'feeling'. As Communion's purpose is to strengthen our faith, should that not bring an element of rejoicing?
 
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