Higher Education

[JS116]

First off I apologize for making 2 threads today,it makes me feel kinda selfish so I usually try to stick to one a day if possible haha.

I was reading back on some threads of christian education and It was a surprise to me to see some of the responses towards higher education.By higher education I mean at least a college/university or tech school degree.

I was reading and saw some were in favor for higher education if needed,while others feel it is essential to have a higher education in today's society.I wanted to know what is some of different views on it.Do you encourage your children,family or friends to pursue higher education why or why not?

Due to the fall it's common to non intentionally misinterpret what man is saying,so I just want to ask would those who careless about it,would you call it meaningless to pursue higher education if it's not dealing with your specific job?

 

[BobVigneault]

I'm with Voddie Baucham, I think that most of higher ed is a scam. The prices are outrageous. It's obscene the way a school will keep adding majors just to keep kids in school to party, steal the parents money and prepare the kids for nothing but unemployment or protesting against whatever.

For the pastorate, higher ed is crucial. It depends, if you child has a good idea what he or she wants to be then you need to plot out a path that will get them there.

There are wonderful options today. College of the Ozarks is a wonderful idea, College Plus is a great idea. Just don't send you kids to college to see what's out there, have a destination in mind.

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

I have folks all the time tell me that they want to go to law school. I tell them they would be better off to seriously think about trade school. If you look at the median earnings of attorneys in the United States, versus the debt load, its scary. I am sure college prepared me for SOMETHING, since I learned more people skills, how to balance a checkbook, wash and iron my own clothes, and I met my wife. However, I got little more out of it than that, and a ticket to go on to law school. College did not prepare me for law school, and law school does not remotely prepare you for the business of practicing law. So, my view of higher education is that its more like a poll tax for job interviews than a meaningful "education" for life. your mileage may vary

 

[BobVigneault]

I was in my lawyer's office this week to tweak our wills and he was telling me of some Yale grads who are suing Yale Law School because they can't get jobs. Strange things are afoot.

 

[toddpedlar]

I was in my lawyer's office this week to tweak our wills and he was telling me of some Yale grads who are suing Yale Law School because they can't get jobs. Strange things are afoot.

That isn't at all surprising... by and large the students in school the past decade are those who have been babied, coddled and given everything they want - and what is more pertinent to the case, told they deserve to be able to have the job that they want. The implication is that they are owed a job, and that when such is denied them for whatever reason, then somebody else is keeping them from it and should be held responsible. Nice society we've built.

 

[moral necessity]

From my experience, a bachelor's degree in anything opens the door to so many more jobs. Many hire just for the presence of the degree alone, regardless of the field. Same is true for a master's degree. It's probably been one of the most important tools I've had in my bag, and has gotten me into places I never could have arrived at without it. I'd encourage most everyone to go as far as they can in education. To borrow the American Express slogan for a little humor: to the extent that you can, "Don't leave home without it."

Blessings!

 

[Andres]

I'm not necessarily opposed to higher education, but I'm certainly not going to give it a blanket endorsement either. When I graduated from high school in 1998, all I heard from educators, family, and friends was how I had to get a college degree or I'd never be able to get a good job in the future. Baloney.
I eventually earned a degree and guess what I do now? I work at a job where my degree is essentially obsolete! Now as Mark said, it's not that my college years were a waste, but if I could do it over again, I would definitely do things differently.

I think being educated, well-read, and having life skills are very important. The question then becomes does one have to go to a four year college and spend tens of thousands of dollars to aquire these. I think not.

 

[JS116]

I agree! Certainly in America we tend to put over emphasis on higher education,while I do believe that if you have not already started a family,you want to to progress in what you do then college is a very helpful tool,too many times at my minimum wage jobs have I heard of people who are in their late 20's on up who wish they would have went to college while they had the opportunity.I don't necessarily believe it will make "successful" or but I do believe it will make you more qualified in alot more areas,I firmly believe God placed it here for a reason.

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------

I was in my lawyer's office this week to tweak our wills and he was telling me of some Yale grads who are suing Yale Law School because they can't get jobs. Strange things are afoot.

Haha,the nerve of them,see I think it's funny people go to these Ivy league schools and think that they will get great jobs when they get out,think again buddy,if anything it will be debt you will be acquiring

Ultimately I believe God has called some to be Astronauts,Biologists,Surgeons,Lawyers,Engineers and etc. that need higher education
ALSO God has called some people to run Family Businesses,learn trades,become farmers,salesman's and other technical jobs.

But I what I do think is wrong is for some discourage anyone from pursuing what they want to be,like telling them that a lower income job that they really desire will not be enough to provide or telling someone higher education is useless so pursue something else because it worthless,that there is where I draw the line.

 

[Philip]

Here's my take:

There are three types of degrees: liberal arts, science, and ones that actually get you jobs. The ones that get you jobs will be obselete in ten years---no one will care. On the other hand, scientific and liberal arts degrees train skills that are useful in a variety of careers and prepare you for work in an ever-changing marketplace. Almost every industry needs folks who can think, communicate clearly verbally and in writing, and do careful analysis, which is what arts and sciences will teach you.

Now, should you get a degree? Depends on what you want to do. Any of the learned professions (medicine, clergy, legal) are obviously going to require a degree. In addition, if you're hoping to go into politics or high-level business, it's useful to have a degree. However, in many cases realize that the reason to go to college is not to get a job: it's to get an education. If all you want is a job, you're better off getting one now or even starting a business now. The reason to go to college is to become a better-rounded human being with sharper analytic skills through mentorship.

This is why I recommend smaller liberal-arts colleges because the faculty there tend to be ones who are more willing to engage with you one-on-one and actually like teaching in the classroom. You'll get a better education by far if you can find a mentor who cares about your progress both academically and personally.

Community college can be an option---however, be cautious with online options, particularly if you're hoping to do graduate work of any kind. The verdict is still out on the online stuff.

 

[JS116]

Here's my take:

There are three types of degrees: liberal arts, science, and ones that actually get you jobs. The ones that get you jobs will be obselete in ten years---no one will care. On the other hand, scientific and liberal arts degrees train skills that are useful in a variety of careers and prepare you for work in an ever-changing marketplace. Almost every industry needs folks who can think, communicate clearly verbally and in writing, and do careful analysis, which is what arts and sciences will teach you.

Now, should you get a degree? Depends on what you want to do. Any of the learned professions (medicine, clergy, legal) are obviously going to require a degree. In addition, if you're hoping to go into politics or high-level business, it's useful to have a degree. However, in many cases realize that the reason to go to college is not to get a job: it's to get an education. If all you want is a job, you're better off getting one now or even starting a business now. The reason to go to college is to become a better-rounded human being with sharper analytic skills through mentorship.

This is why I recommend smaller liberal-arts colleges because the faculty there tend to be ones who are more willing to engage with you one-on-one and actually like teaching in the classroom. You'll get a better education by far if you can find a mentor who cares about your progress both academically and personally.

Community college can be an option---however, be cautious with online options, particularly if you're hoping to do graduate work of any kind. The verdict is still out on the online stuff.

I am VERY glad you posted that!I am myself at a community college planning to attend a university Like(UNC Charlotte)or a christian college such as Geneva or Covenant College.

They are very expensive but thank God my dad can afford to help me and I will be applying for scholarships.

 

[nasa30]

The reason to go to college is to become a better-rounded human being with sharper analytic skills through mentorship.

If that is the goal then we as a nation or doing it wrong somewhere. Most times, we are shipping our kids off to college but we think that is what they are supposed to do next and we have no better idea what to do with them. I agree with Bawb and Voddie as well. Most degrees are a cash grab these days. Every look at the some of the degrees that schools are giving out in the name of higher education?

I am of the opinion that those goals in the quote above could be met better than going to a university anyway. Online options with focused mentorship is a much better options for many students these days. With the money that was spent on 4 years at college, so much education could be accomplished that would be so much better!

 

[Philip]

I am VERY glad you posted that!I am myself at a community college planning to attend a university Like(UNC Charlotte)or a christian college such as Geneva or Covenant College.

If you happen to swing by Covenant, let me know and I'll be glad to talk.

I am of the opinion that those goals in the quote above could be met better than going to a university anyway. Online options with focused mentorship is a much better options for many students these days.

You can't get good mentorship online---there's something about face-to-face that online can't quite equal. I have ideas on how the system could be improved (gleaned from observing a couple of institutions) such as tutorials, better seminars, and the great books method, but I don't think that the university as an institution is necessarily a bad model. The other thing to worry about is accreditation: having that degree shows not only that you have the skills and training in writing, thinking, etc, but that other people have recognized this.

 

[Unoriginalname]

From my experience as a college student, I have found most or if not many of my friends have wasted their time by perusing the major they thought would make them happy at the school they thought would fulfill them. I personally think Higher Education is a great thing for some people. The people I think it's good for are people you are those who can keep up intellectually and are mature enough to handle their own finances and not blow there money going to an overpriced school. I know college can be done well, but I have mostly seen it done badly. If you are looking to go to a particular school just talk to people at the schools and see what they think of them.

 

[Weston Stoler]

Dude pursue a major in philosophy or something like that if you don't have a career in mind. I am of the opinion that going to college for just a job is wasting your college career. Go for an education and to open your mind to new ways of thinking. Which is why I say if you don't have a carrer in mind major in philosophy. It can't hurt lol

 

[nasa30]

I am VERY glad you posted that!I am myself at a community college planning to attend a university Like(UNC Charlotte)or a christian college such as Geneva or Covenant College.

If you happen to swing by Covenant, let me know and I'll be glad to talk.

I am of the opinion that those goals in the quote above could be met better than going to a university anyway. Online options with focused mentorship is a much better options for many students these days.

You can't get good mentorship online---there's something about face-to-face that online can't quite equal.

Oh, I could not agree more. The online portion is not for mentorship. Internship would be a component of mentorship. A good internship is 10x better then a prof/mentorship. It is focused, not limited by other students, one on one. Also, what kind of opportunities open up if we spent the kind of money that we spend on college on getting our student out there in internships, truly neat things could happen. Have a son that wants to lean finance and economics? Have him take some online courses on the subject and then spend the rest of that semesters "tuition" money on sending him New York, then to Europe for a month and then to South Africa to observe the markets, and meet with folks in the industry to teach him.
Just one basic example but you get the idea.

 

[Philip]

Oh, I could not agree more. The online portion is not for mentorship. Internship would be a component of mentorship. A good internship is 10x better then a prof/mentorship. It is focused, not limited by other students, one on one. Also, what kind of opportunities open up if we spent the kind of money that we spend on college on getting our student out there in internships, truly neat things could happen. Have a son that wants to lean finance and economics? Have him take some online courses on the subject and then spend the rest of that semesters "tuition" money on sending him New York, then to Europe for a month and then to South Africa to observe the markets, and meet with folks in the industry to teach him.

It would be helpful, though, if there were a program that did this and had those contacts and could certify all that. The fact is that college students at reputable schools have the inside track on internships and the like.

The other option that needs to come to America is the Oxbridge model of tutorial-based education, where professor and student meet regularly to discuss the work. Granted, it presupposes huge endowments and a massive library system to become affordable/workable.

 

[JS116]

Dude pursue a major in philosophy or something like that if you don't have a career in mind. I am of the opinion that going to college for just a job is wasting your college career. Go for an education and to open your mind to new ways of thinking. Which is why I say if you don't have a carrer in mind major in philosophy. It can't hurt lol

Nahh,major in philosphy would be a waste,I'm thinking about going to be a computer engineer,so going to college is not optional for me,also since seminary is a grad school I have to obtain at LEAST 1 degree.

For those who think it is a waste,what advice would give to those who desire to get a better paying job leading to a career or move up to a management position?Hard work pays off but if your not qualified they simply are not going to give you a chance until you have met the requirements.A Higher education DOES NOT guarantee you a job,neither does not having one either,so you gotta do whats best and follow where God lead's and not the money,always strive to grow.

---------- Post added at 05:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------

Phillip,

What type of setting is covenant? What big city's is it near by?

 

[Philip]

Nahh,major in philosphy would be a waste

If you're looking at seminary, it's one of the better options, actually, along with history, English, and, naturally, Biblical studies (Psychology is a good one too). Computer science is a good minor, given the fast rate of change in the industry, but what software/computing companies are looking for is practical skills, not necessarily the major.

 

[JS116]

Nahh,major in philosphy would be a waste

If you're looking at seminary, it's one of the better options, actually, along with history, English, and, naturally, Biblical studies (Psychology is a good one too). Computer science is a good minor, given the fast rate of change in the industry, but what software/computing companies are looking for is practical skills, not necessarily the major.

It would be a waste for me,I cant really use a degree in philosophy to fall back on as a trade or anyting unless I wanted to become a professor or something,going to a university to major in philosophy would be a bad idea for me because then I would be wasting money,I will certainly take philosophy classes and even world religions but philosophy as a major at these state universities,no think you i'll pass.

 

[Philip]

It would be a waste for me,I cant really use a degree in philosophy to fall back on as a trade or anyting unless I wanted to become a professor or something,going to a university to major in philosophy would be a bad idea for me because then I would be wasting money,I will certainly take philosophy classes and even world religions but philosophy as a major at these state universities,no think you i'll pass.

I'm confused: are you looking toward seminary? In terms of fall-back careers, learn a trade: get a job working with your college's maintainance crew and see if you can't learn basic stuff about wiring or plumbing.

What type of setting is covenant? What big city's is it near by?

Covenant is located on top of Lookout Mountain (GA side) and is the college of the PCA. It's a fifteen minute drive down the mountain to Chattanooga, TN. It's also about a two hour drive from Atlanta, Nashville, Knoxville, and Birmingham. Probably a 6-8 hour drive from you (not familiar with the roads between Wilmington and Chatty). Chatt's a nice "small-town city" with a fair industrial presence (still) and a lot of start-up businesses (several of them started by Covenant College grads, actually). Not sure how else to describe it without showing.

 

[O'GodHowGreatThouArt]

This kind of debate is one of the reasons why I'm contemplating dropping out of school when I get my A.A. in May.

I just don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth, and with the internet and a cheap way to obtain reading material, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to stick around as a Liberal Arts major. I'm pretty much getting everything I'm paying for at a far cheaper price (if not free).

 

[Todd King]

In today's economic climate, higher education is, in my opinion, an incredibly unwise decision. First off, currently there are over 85% of college grads who are unable to get a job in their field. That's pretty poor odds. Second, for just a four year degree, one can expect to spend at least $40,000. If one works full time for the same four years, he will have earned probably $60,000 in that time. Then, 10 years to pay off the $40,000 loan, in which time, one who has already been working for a while will have gotten raises and be making more than their original 4 years. Finally, if one is entrepreneurial, then they can make considerably more money than the average job holder.

While money shouldn't be the primary concern of anyone deciding a career path, that is most certainly a valuable consideration. As far as needing higher ed to serve the Lord in a clergy situation, that is completely unnecessary. The apostles, in general, did not have higher education, nor did most of the early church fathers. While law and medical schools do require, by law, higher education, that is a relatively new development that was not a requirement 100 or so years ago. Patrick Henry, one of the greatest lawyers this country has ever seen, never had a degree, but worked as an apprentice to a lawyer after studying law independently.

So, all said and done, I personally think there are much better options and would discourage most from seeking higher ed unless they are able to do so debt free.

 

[Gloria]

The total cost of my college education was about $21,000-$23,000 (all things considered). Most of it was paid by scholarships. I paid for other expenses by working. I lived on campus all four years (the least expensive situation at the time) and didn't own a car (walked or rode my bike EVERYWHERE). That being said, my ROI has been fine so far. I have SOME "school" debt, but it's debt I foolishly acquired in my senior year of college, when in a fit of rebellion, ignorance and deceit, I decided to take out a education loan to get a car. (don't ask)

I majored in production (radio/television). I can use the skills I learned in college to do event videography (still dabble in it). I'm using my degree and at the same time NOT using my degree. I wouldn't have been interviewed for my current position without it, but then again, I'm not editing video or standing behind a camera or mic. I've held my current position for 6 years.

I say get a degree at a reasonably priced college/university, in a field that is GROWING and you'll be fine to enter the market. After that, trust the Lord, pray and when he DOES bless you with a job, work unto Him! You'll hit some rough patches, but the Lord provides. I'd NEVER advise someone not to pursue a degree of some kind in today's world, especially not a man. Even it's a two year degree, get it done! If all else fails, major in business (management, finance, accounting, economics, information systems), something computers related (at least pursue the popular certifications), mathematics or chemistry.

***This advice if for those of us who possess no particular artistic or entrepreneurial skills***

SN: I honestly can't see myself sending my children to a private school. They are simply TOO EXPENSIVE.

 

[Philip]

The apostles, in general, did not have higher education, nor did most of the early church fathers.

This was because there was no such thing at the time. The Apostles actually had what was considered the equivalent at the time: they had followed a teacher. They were disciples---students. Likewise, the church fathers studied with mentors in the same way. The University developed in the Middle Ages.

Patrick Henry, one of the greatest lawyers this country has ever seen, never had a degree, but worked as an apprentice to a lawyer after studying law independently.

In some states, you can still read law in this way (though you still have to have a Bachelor's). Very few firms will do this, though, as it's time-consuming.

First off, currently there are over 85% of college grads who are unable to get a job in their field.

What's the percentage of non-graduates who can't get the job they want? Again, this is why a generic degree is actually better: it's more flexible and the skills more transferrable.

I'd say that you need to weigh the price of a school vs. the cost of a school. You can go to an online campus and pay very little---just remember that you get what you pay for. A small liberal arts school will be pricey, but you may decide that it's worth it for the kind of education that such an institution can provide you with.

I just don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth

Then transfer to a school where you will. The trouble with reading on the internet is that it don't show up on a resume.

 

[Todd King]

This was because there was no such thing at the time. The Apostles actually had what was considered the equivalent at the time: they had followed a teacher. They were disciples---students. Likewise, the church fathers studied with mentors in the same way. The University developed in the Middle Ages.

Correct. This system won't work today why?

What's the percentage of non-graduates who can't get the job they want? Again, this is why a generic degree is actually better: it's more flexible and the skills more transferrable.

Correct again. A generic degree is much better than a specialized degree. But will that degree actually get you anything that you can't get through hard work, ingenuity, and creativity?

I'd say that you need to weigh the price of a school vs. the cost of a school. You can go to an online campus and pay very little---just remember that you get what you pay for. A small liberal arts school will be pricey, but you may decide that it's worth it for the kind of education that such an institution can provide you with.

Sometimes you do get what you pay for. Sometimes, after you've paid for what you've gotten, you continue paying. There are several free or low cost online colleges that are fully accredited. That list is growing on a regular basis. You can also take every single class that MIT has to offer for free. This won't allow for one to get a degree, but if one is entrepreneurial, this can give you all the education you would ever need to become a great businessman.

Then transfer to a school where you will. The trouble with reading on the internet is that it don't show up on a resume.

Correct yet again. However, during a depression, you will find that degrees will come to be valued just slightly lower than toilet paper. Those who are willing to work hard and who are honest will always have work if their pride will not prevent them from working.

 

[JoannaV]

For those who think it is a waste,what advice would give to those who desire to get a better paying job leading to a career or move up to a management position?Hard work pays off but if your not qualified they simply are not going to give you a chance until you have met the requirements.

Slightly off topic, but it's sad how many people are in management solely because they have a degree yet have no management skills and also don't have a clue about the field they're working in :-(


Clergy only need a degree if churches hire based on resumes rather than preaching

 

[jogri17]

Here in Québec, they are most more reasonable about Higher Education than in the states. They want to maintain an high standard, so they developed CGEP. In CGEP you can pick a University route or a trade school route, thus university starts when people are 19 or 20, plus education is around 1400-1600 per semester.

Personally I do not like the notion of independant Christian colleges without some sort of government standards. I know that is controversal, but accredidation ensures standards, and there needs to be some, and the government's role (on a state level) does that. That has also been the historical model that has worked since the middle ages, and most countries go by that (helps insure transfer of credis internationally also!) and the conservative thing is not to start tiny institutions separated from the wider academic community.

 

[nasa30]

For those who think it is a waste,what advice would give to those who desire to get a better paying job leading to a career or move up to a management position?Hard work pays off but if your not qualified they simply are not going to give you a chance until you have met the requirements.

Slightly off topic, but it's sad how many people are in management solely because they have a degree yet have no management skills and also don't have a clue about the field they're working in :-(

Very true but thankfully this trend is starting to change in places because management is starting to wise up as well. I have seen a shift in our hiring practices over the last 20 years at my company to hiring folks with skills and not just on a piece of paper. I am in real estate accounting for a Real Estate Investment Trust.

 

[Reformed Thomist]

I graduated from the University of Toronto (St. Michael's College) in June of this year with an Honours Bachelor of Arts degree (philosophy, with a Book and Media Studies minor), and after four months of pounding the pavement every day I had a single, for me, 'career'-type bite (full-time, salaried, in a downtown office environment). Thankfully, the company decided to place its trust in me and I have now begun my professional career. Hopefully I can keep it together and succeed in this thing.

Two things: (1) I could have easily 'given up' and taken a job which does not require my education, such as a retail position, the kind of thing I was doing before and throughout my university days -- invariably part-time, at or hovering above minimum wage. I almost did. This is what many members of my graduating class are doing. (2) I can say with certainty that I would not have my current job without my degree (and maybe even without my University of Toronto degree -- always an impressive credential in Canada; and I am a fellow alumnus of several of the top dogs at the company). Everyone, from the bottom (that's me) to the top, has at least an undergraduate degree. The personal recommendations from two of my professors did not hurt either.

As for my 'impractical' liberal arts degree, I was able to sell it. My position requires strong attention to detail, critical/analytical thinking, problem analysis and resolution, effective written and oral communication, organizational skills, working well under pressure, etc. That I developed these skills by way of intense study of the texts of Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Kant and Hegel rather than, say, biochemistry textbooks, does not take away from my abilities in this regard, and in some ways this puts me ahead of 'practical' degree holders.

 

[Philip]

This system won't work today why?

It more or less does: it's called a PhD, or the University of Oxford. Take your pick.

A generic degree is much better than a specialized degree. But will that degree actually get you anything that you can't get through hard work, ingenuity, and creativity?

No: you got the degree through hard work, creativity, and ingenuity. The degree merely shows that in a way that people understand.

There are several free or low cost online colleges that are fully accredited.

Again, I would submit that this model loses something. If you want to save money, enroll at a local college as an off-campus student.

However, during a depression, you will find that degrees will come to be valued just slightly lower than toilet paper.

Again, this is because you view it in monetary terms. As I suggested, academic mentorship (in theory, at least) is supposed to be in view here.

Clergy only need a degree if churches hire based on resumes rather than preaching

This is untrue. Most denominations require a seminary degree for ordination.