ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
That sounds pretty close, yes.
How comfortable should a Christian's life be?
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Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Adam,
Like yourself, I have worked in human services for most of my career (before I retired), as a house parent for various populations, staff in a crisis-intervention walk-in & hotline center, teaching ass't in special ed schools, etc. Usually these settings are founded upon secular humanist principles. I have been told to "leave [my] faith at the gate" and such (the director who issued that ultimatum was fired after a while). But I was able to quietly serve the people I worked with, often -- and quietly -- bearing witness to the "secret" of my joy and the source of my life.
If you were to be more confrontational with those (staff or supervisors) who challenge you on faith issues, and for your "stand-up" witness you got fired ("persecuted"), you would deprive the girls of the nurture and admonition of the Lord you grace them with. So you have to weigh the consequences of your actions. Wisdom is knowing what moves to make, and when. The Scripture says, "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak." (Eccl 3:1, 7)
If you were to get fired because of a compulsion to witness (driven by guilt), would that serve those you have a ministry to? Sometimes Christian "militancy" is inappropriate, especially in delicate situations of service. If you are put into a clear quandary as was Daniel or his three friends, then you opt for Biblical integrity. But if being "aggressive" per the calling of some, but not all, gets you canned, perhaps you have been marching to someone else's drumbeat, but not the one given you.
Paul did say prayers for those over us should be made "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty." Wisdom is knowing when to speak, and when to keep quiet, especially when the wicked bear rule over us.
The may indeed come a time in our generation when the darkness is so powerful and overwhelming we must speak out, loving not our lives even unto the death. We need to be prepared for that. But "compulsive witnessing" is a bane, a drivenness not of God. It is a question of balance and wisdom.
Like yourself, I have worked in human services for most of my career (before I retired), as a house parent for various populations, staff in a crisis-intervention walk-in & hotline center, teaching ass't in special ed schools, etc. Usually these settings are founded upon secular humanist principles. I have been told to "leave [my] faith at the gate" and such (the director who issued that ultimatum was fired after a while). But I was able to quietly serve the people I worked with, often -- and quietly -- bearing witness to the "secret" of my joy and the source of my life.
If you were to be more confrontational with those (staff or supervisors) who challenge you on faith issues, and for your "stand-up" witness you got fired ("persecuted"), you would deprive the girls of the nurture and admonition of the Lord you grace them with. So you have to weigh the consequences of your actions. Wisdom is knowing what moves to make, and when. The Scripture says, "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak." (Eccl 3:1, 7)
If you were to get fired because of a compulsion to witness (driven by guilt), would that serve those you have a ministry to? Sometimes Christian "militancy" is inappropriate, especially in delicate situations of service. If you are put into a clear quandary as was Daniel or his three friends, then you opt for Biblical integrity. But if being "aggressive" per the calling of some, but not all, gets you canned, perhaps you have been marching to someone else's drumbeat, but not the one given you.
Paul did say prayers for those over us should be made "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty." Wisdom is knowing when to speak, and when to keep quiet, especially when the wicked bear rule over us.
The may indeed come a time in our generation when the darkness is so powerful and overwhelming we must speak out, loving not our lives even unto the death. We need to be prepared for that. But "compulsive witnessing" is a bane, a drivenness not of God. It is a question of balance and wisdom.
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Here's a thread from a related topic a while back.
http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/self-denial-vs-enjoying-blessings-12131/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f25/self-denial-vs-enjoying-blessings-12131/
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
Adam, I always enjoy this particular sermon on this particular subject. This is from the HNRC in Chiliwack, British Columbia (a wild and crazy bunch of Calvinists - great preaching!) It's called "The World's Hatred for the Church".
SermonAudio.com - World's hatred for the Church
I love the ending. Basically, "Why aren't we being persecuted, though we claim to be His??"
Nice Dutch accent too!
SermonAudio.com - World's hatred for the Church
I love the ending. Basically, "Why aren't we being persecuted, though we claim to be His??"
Nice Dutch accent too!
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Steve-this isn't about blatant, strong, "in your face" witnessing. I used to do that as an Arminian who thought it was my job to "save" everyone. I am talking about a work style that loves kids, I call it "relational structure", a true balance between being structured through the building of relationships. Should we in this line of work, be forced to secretly care about those we work with, but publicly make it seem as though we don't, or as if we don't "too much"?
Adam, it looks like a lot has come out in the discussion while I slept, but there is one thing that I think you are asking for: how do you deal with challenging and possibly hateful co-workers?
Perhaps it would help to stand back and remember who the strong one is. Our Lord Christ. Not us. By resting in that strength, you can let go of fearing the buffets and be quietly firm. I'm not spouting a platitude, I hope, but rather a real-life practical approach to life.
I can only give my own experience here, and my temperment may be different from yours in execution, but I remind myself every day that some things are non-negotiable. A challenge to my faith is one of them. I don't have to respond in a confrontational manner to such challenge at all. I merely meet it with a soft and firm voice.
For example, when I first started my job, there was tremendous pressure to participate in various programs and seminars featuring new-age productivity gurus. They featured things like visualization, role playing, self-hypnosis, etc. They were conducted on company time, so it was considered part of the job.
The managing partner came into my office and asked me to volunteer to coordinate it. I replied, politely, that I could not, and that I would not even attend it. She looked surprised and asked me "why not?" I responded, again, soft-spoken, "what you are asking me to do violates the core of my Christian faith. I believe that such exercises are spiritually very dangerous and harmful. I cannot do it without violating my conscience."
That was that. I wasn't fired, I wasn't ridiculed. And, as a bonus, although the scheduled event went on without me, there weren't any more. All of this came about without me having to invoke legal rights or make threats or trouble.
The point I'm trying to make is that you can be firm and uncompromising in a low-key and non-controversial manner. It may bring a calming of tensions in the long run. People understand the boundaries and are less likely to keep testing them.
And another bonus, one of the other partners in the firm has now started asking me about this Christian stuff.
Praying for you, brother.
Perhaps it would help to stand back and remember who the strong one is. Our Lord Christ. Not us. By resting in that strength, you can let go of fearing the buffets and be quietly firm. I'm not spouting a platitude, I hope, but rather a real-life practical approach to life.
I can only give my own experience here, and my temperment may be different from yours in execution, but I remind myself every day that some things are non-negotiable. A challenge to my faith is one of them. I don't have to respond in a confrontational manner to such challenge at all. I merely meet it with a soft and firm voice.
For example, when I first started my job, there was tremendous pressure to participate in various programs and seminars featuring new-age productivity gurus. They featured things like visualization, role playing, self-hypnosis, etc. They were conducted on company time, so it was considered part of the job.
The managing partner came into my office and asked me to volunteer to coordinate it. I replied, politely, that I could not, and that I would not even attend it. She looked surprised and asked me "why not?" I responded, again, soft-spoken, "what you are asking me to do violates the core of my Christian faith. I believe that such exercises are spiritually very dangerous and harmful. I cannot do it without violating my conscience."
That was that. I wasn't fired, I wasn't ridiculed. And, as a bonus, although the scheduled event went on without me, there weren't any more. All of this came about without me having to invoke legal rights or make threats or trouble.
The point I'm trying to make is that you can be firm and uncompromising in a low-key and non-controversial manner. It may bring a calming of tensions in the long run. People understand the boundaries and are less likely to keep testing them.
And another bonus, one of the other partners in the firm has now started asking me about this Christian stuff.
Praying for you, brother.
Barnpreacher
Puritan Board Junior
Adam,
I was just listening to a message by Tim Keller and something he said made me think about this thread. He quoted
I Peter 2:11-12:
Basically Keller was saying that as Christians we are strangers and pilgrims in this world. The gospel has created a culture called the Church. As members of Christ's body we are to be a counterculture in the world we live in. Yet, the gospel also allows us as people to relate to the culture around us. So, the gospel teaches us to avoid legalism and cultural isolation. Yet, the gospel teaches us to avoid liberalism and culture accomodation as well.
So I Peter 2:11-12 teaches us that it's not sometimes we will be persecuted and spoken against as evildoers, and other times people will see our good deeds and glorify God. That's not what those verses in Peter are teaching us. They are teaching us that because we are in the Body of Christ these two things will happen at the same time when we truly live the gospel life.
If we just withdraw from the world and hate the world (legalism) then God is not glorified in our lives because we are not involved and engaged in gospel activity. And if we hug up to the world to the point that no persecution is spoken against us (liberalism) then we're not engaged in gospel activity either.
The gospel teaches us to be a counterculture that is very distinct and different from the world around us. YET, the gospel also teaches us to love the world and love our enemies and forgive our enemies like our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did.
It's a tremendous balance that comes only from living the gospel. Keller uses the Babylonian exiles of Jeremiah 29 as an example. God told them he didn't want them to just withdraw from the world, nor did he want them to become like the world. He wanted them to live in the world and love the people of the world as a counterculture. When this is done in the power of the gospel today we will suffer persecution, and yet the glory of God will be revealed in our lives as well.
I'm not sure if this is what you were really getting at, but it seems along the same lines. Plus, it helped me put these notes down on paper after listening to Keller's sermon. It will help the tremendous truth of living out the gospel life sink in even more.
I was just listening to a message by Tim Keller and something he said made me think about this thread. He quoted
I Peter 2:11-12:
Basically Keller was saying that as Christians we are strangers and pilgrims in this world. The gospel has created a culture called the Church. As members of Christ's body we are to be a counterculture in the world we live in. Yet, the gospel also allows us as people to relate to the culture around us. So, the gospel teaches us to avoid legalism and cultural isolation. Yet, the gospel teaches us to avoid liberalism and culture accomodation as well.
So I Peter 2:11-12 teaches us that it's not sometimes we will be persecuted and spoken against as evildoers, and other times people will see our good deeds and glorify God. That's not what those verses in Peter are teaching us. They are teaching us that because we are in the Body of Christ these two things will happen at the same time when we truly live the gospel life.
If we just withdraw from the world and hate the world (legalism) then God is not glorified in our lives because we are not involved and engaged in gospel activity. And if we hug up to the world to the point that no persecution is spoken against us (liberalism) then we're not engaged in gospel activity either.
The gospel teaches us to be a counterculture that is very distinct and different from the world around us. YET, the gospel also teaches us to love the world and love our enemies and forgive our enemies like our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did.
It's a tremendous balance that comes only from living the gospel. Keller uses the Babylonian exiles of Jeremiah 29 as an example. God told them he didn't want them to just withdraw from the world, nor did he want them to become like the world. He wanted them to live in the world and love the people of the world as a counterculture. When this is done in the power of the gospel today we will suffer persecution, and yet the glory of God will be revealed in our lives as well.
I'm not sure if this is what you were really getting at, but it seems along the same lines. Plus, it helped me put these notes down on paper after listening to Keller's sermon. It will help the tremendous truth of living out the gospel life sink in even more.
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks, considering all that right now.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Adam,
No, I did not think you were "in their face" at all. If the issue is about the degree of genuine caring expressed, and some criticize you for openly having a heart, then I think you are on solid ground. I know that in human services there is a maxim not to get "emotionally involved" with the people we care for/serve, but this is easily answered by showing the complete lack of emotional empathy and its destructive results. It sounds to me like you are balanced in your approach.
I will be praying for you in this.
Ryan,
Tim Keller was my wife's and my pastor for over 5 years. Under his ministry, we became rooted and grounded in the love of God in Christ, and this has profoundly impacted our lives and ministries. We still listen to his sermons here overseas.
No, I did not think you were "in their face" at all. If the issue is about the degree of genuine caring expressed, and some criticize you for openly having a heart, then I think you are on solid ground. I know that in human services there is a maxim not to get "emotionally involved" with the people we care for/serve, but this is easily answered by showing the complete lack of emotional empathy and its destructive results. It sounds to me like you are balanced in your approach.
I will be praying for you in this.
Ryan,
Tim Keller was my wife's and my pastor for over 5 years. Under his ministry, we became rooted and grounded in the love of God in Christ, and this has profoundly impacted our lives and ministries. We still listen to his sermons here overseas.
Barnpreacher
Puritan Board Junior
I'm sure that was an amazing blessing, Steve. Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and place myself under the ministry of a guy like Tim Keller instead of the dispensational, semi-pelagian stuff I heard for so many years. But then I think I probably wouldn't appreciate the Reformed doctrines of the faith as much as I do now if that had been the case.
God's blessings upon you my brother.
Blueridge Believer
Puritan Board Professor
The burdens of prosperity
(Thomas Watson, "The Lord's Prayer")
People are usually better in adversity, than prosperity.
A prosperous condition is not always so safe. True, it
is more pleasing to the flesh--but it is not always best.
In a prosperous state, there is more burden. Many
look at the shining and glittering of prosperity--but
not at the burdens of prosperity.
[1] There is the burden of CARE. Therefore God calls
riches "cares." Luke 8:14. A rose has its prickles--so
have riches. We think them happy, who flourish in
their silks and gold--but we do not see the troubles
and cares which attend them! A shoe may have silver
lace on it--yet pinch the foot. Many a man who goes
to his hard labor, lives a more contented life than he
who has millions. Disquieting care is the evil spirit
which haunts the rich man. When his chests are full
of gold--his heart is full of care how to increase them,
or how to secure what he has gotten. A large estate,
like a long, trailing garment--is often more
troublesome than useful.
[2] In a prosperous estate there is the burden of
ACCOUNT. Such as are in high places, have a far
greater account to give to God than others. "Unto
whom much is given--of him shall be much required."
The more golden talents any are entrusted with--the
more they have to answer for. The more their revenues
--the more their reckonings. God will say, "I gave you
a great estate--what have you done with it? How have
you employed it for My glory?"
[3] A prosperous condition has more DANGER in it.
Such as are on the top of the pinnacle of honor--are
in more danger of falling. They are subject to many
temptations. Their table is often a snare. Millions are
drowned in the sweet waters of pleasure.
A large sail overturns the vessel. Many, by having a too
large sail of prosperity, have had their souls overturned!
He has need have much wisdom and grace, to know how
to wisely bear a high condition. It is hard to carry a full
cup without spilling--and a full estate without sinning!
Prosperity breeds pride. When the tide rises higher in
the river, the boat rises higher; so, when the tide of an
estate rises higher, many men's hearts rise higher in
pride. Prosperity breeds carnal security. Samson fell
asleep in Delilah's lap--so do men in the lap of ease
and plenty. The world's golden sands, are quicksands.
God knows what is best for us. If we have less estate, we
are in less danger. If we lack the riches and honors of
others--so we lack their temptations. "How hard it is for
rich people to get into the Kingdom of God! It is easier
for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a
rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!" Luke 18:24-25.
(Thomas Watson, "The Lord's Prayer")
People are usually better in adversity, than prosperity.
A prosperous condition is not always so safe. True, it
is more pleasing to the flesh--but it is not always best.
In a prosperous state, there is more burden. Many
look at the shining and glittering of prosperity--but
not at the burdens of prosperity.
[1] There is the burden of CARE. Therefore God calls
riches "cares." Luke 8:14. A rose has its prickles--so
have riches. We think them happy, who flourish in
their silks and gold--but we do not see the troubles
and cares which attend them! A shoe may have silver
lace on it--yet pinch the foot. Many a man who goes
to his hard labor, lives a more contented life than he
who has millions. Disquieting care is the evil spirit
which haunts the rich man. When his chests are full
of gold--his heart is full of care how to increase them,
or how to secure what he has gotten. A large estate,
like a long, trailing garment--is often more
troublesome than useful.
[2] In a prosperous estate there is the burden of
ACCOUNT. Such as are in high places, have a far
greater account to give to God than others. "Unto
whom much is given--of him shall be much required."
The more golden talents any are entrusted with--the
more they have to answer for. The more their revenues
--the more their reckonings. God will say, "I gave you
a great estate--what have you done with it? How have
you employed it for My glory?"
[3] A prosperous condition has more DANGER in it.
Such as are on the top of the pinnacle of honor--are
in more danger of falling. They are subject to many
temptations. Their table is often a snare. Millions are
drowned in the sweet waters of pleasure.
A large sail overturns the vessel. Many, by having a too
large sail of prosperity, have had their souls overturned!
He has need have much wisdom and grace, to know how
to wisely bear a high condition. It is hard to carry a full
cup without spilling--and a full estate without sinning!
Prosperity breeds pride. When the tide rises higher in
the river, the boat rises higher; so, when the tide of an
estate rises higher, many men's hearts rise higher in
pride. Prosperity breeds carnal security. Samson fell
asleep in Delilah's lap--so do men in the lap of ease
and plenty. The world's golden sands, are quicksands.
God knows what is best for us. If we have less estate, we
are in less danger. If we lack the riches and honors of
others--so we lack their temptations. "How hard it is for
rich people to get into the Kingdom of God! It is easier
for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a
rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!" Luke 18:24-25.
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