"In" vs. "Through"
- Thread starter chuckd
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chuckd
Puritan Board Junior
Gal. 2:20 - "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
There is no verse that says "through", but I've heard people say it. I'm wondering if there is a fundamental difference.
There is no verse that says "through", but I've heard people say it. I'm wondering if there is a fundamental difference.
MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
We live through Christ:
"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live"- 1 Cor. 8:6
And we live in Christ:
"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution"- 2 Tim. 3:12
And Christ lives in us
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me"- Gal. 2:20
It was Gal. 2:20 that came to my mind first when I read the OP. It would be interesting to know the Greek behind it. I looked through the translations on Bible Gateway. Though none said "through," this was close:
"And my present life is not that of the old 'I', but the living Christ within me. The bodily life I now live, I live believing in the Son of God, who loved me and sacrificed himself for me"- Phillips New Testament
A Google search showed that some sites have cited the verse as "through me" but I can't seem to find the translation names...
"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live"- 1 Cor. 8:6
And we live in Christ:
"Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution"- 2 Tim. 3:12
And Christ lives in us
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me"- Gal. 2:20
It was Gal. 2:20 that came to my mind first when I read the OP. It would be interesting to know the Greek behind it. I looked through the translations on Bible Gateway. Though none said "through," this was close:
"And my present life is not that of the old 'I', but the living Christ within me. The bodily life I now live, I live believing in the Son of God, who loved me and sacrificed himself for me"- Phillips New Testament
A Google search showed that some sites have cited the verse as "through me" but I can't seem to find the translation names...
Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
I've heard some talk about Christ living "through" me in the sense that I represent Jesus in the world. My hands and mouth and feet are his hands and mouth and feet. As much as I am active in doing good in the world, he is alive and active and doing good in the world.
There's some truth to the idea that we represent our Savior and that he does, indeed, work through us. But that sense of "Jesus lives through me" is inadequate. It suggests he's dead except for what we do as his followers, or that he's somehow dependent on us.
Of course, "Jesus lives in me" could be misused the some way, but I haven't heard that as much. I guess the clarifying question to ask is whether or not the speaker believes Christ also lives on his own.
There's some truth to the idea that we represent our Savior and that he does, indeed, work through us. But that sense of "Jesus lives through me" is inadequate. It suggests he's dead except for what we do as his followers, or that he's somehow dependent on us.
Of course, "Jesus lives in me" could be misused the some way, but I haven't heard that as much. I guess the clarifying question to ask is whether or not the speaker believes Christ also lives on his own.
hammondjones
Puritan Board Junior
See page 73ff for D.A. Carson's comments on Gal 2:20. Tends to see it more as “Christ lives with respect to me”
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/carson/2004_vindication_of_imputation.pdf
also see pg. 165ff
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/carson/2002_love_in_hard_places.pdf
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/carson/2004_vindication_of_imputation.pdf
also see pg. 165ff
http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/carson/2002_love_in_hard_places.pdf
Exactly. I've never heard anyone say it so I don't know the context. Are these people close to you? Ask them which passage of Scripture, or what doctrine of theology they are referring to.
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
"Christ through me" sounds to me like the Spanish Catholic mystic Teresa of Avila, who famously said that Christ has no feet, hands or eyes on Earth but ours. This kind of thinking is rampant in the evangelical "missional" movement and is - I think - potentially the cause for much subtle pride and, on the other hand, a source of anxiety over what we are NOT doing.
I frequently hear people who have this mindset speak, as though they think they're being really spiritual, of the need "to allow Christ to work through us." They seem to think they're being humble, but don't really think at all about the implications of their words.
What's worse is the anxiety bit, though... Get a "missional-minded" Christian in the room and he can lay a pretty heavy guilt trip on the people assembled for worship by talking about how Christ only does his work through his people and so we owe it to him, if he is to be able to do "what he wants to", we need to get to it. People are this guilted into doing things (quite often at the expense of other good and Godly choices) so that God isn't frustrated in his efforts. People who don't choose to participate then may (and I have seen it happen in my own home) become depressed over their not jumping on the bandwagon and be concerned about the reality of their faith and trust in Christ. This is no small matter.
I frequently hear people who have this mindset speak, as though they think they're being really spiritual, of the need "to allow Christ to work through us." They seem to think they're being humble, but don't really think at all about the implications of their words.
What's worse is the anxiety bit, though... Get a "missional-minded" Christian in the room and he can lay a pretty heavy guilt trip on the people assembled for worship by talking about how Christ only does his work through his people and so we owe it to him, if he is to be able to do "what he wants to", we need to get to it. People are this guilted into doing things (quite often at the expense of other good and Godly choices) so that God isn't frustrated in his efforts. People who don't choose to participate then may (and I have seen it happen in my own home) become depressed over their not jumping on the bandwagon and be concerned about the reality of their faith and trust in Christ. This is no small matter.
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chuckd
Puritan Board Junior
Yes, but they are completely closed to any sort of discussion and usually get very upset with me questioning their beliefs. This is one conversation we had:
her: "I think the Spirit visits everyone in the world and they have to make a decision whether they are going to humble themselves or not."
me: "Why do you think that?"
her: "It's all over the Bible."
me: "Such as?"
her: "All over."
me: "Can you give me an example?"
her: "Oh, like John 3:16."
me: "I'm not following. That verse doesn't say that at all."
her: "I don't like to get into arguments and the church today is all about division." (angry tone)
me: "Ok."
This "Christ lives through me" and other Keswick dogma ("let go, let God") has come up frequently over the past year. So I've been thinking lately that "Christ lives through me" self-defeats pretty quickly in argument, but what exactly does "Christ live in me" (Biblical) mean? Is it a better translation to say "Christ live with respect to me" as someone quoted Carson before?
I was thinking more along the lines of the Holiness Movement. But a lot of them are mystics as you pointed out.
ah...good call. I'm really looking for, semantically, the difference between a person living in someone, and a person living through someone. Then we can move on to the Biblical basis for the four circumstances that it may occur between Jesus and the church.
Rom 8:1-15
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit...5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. *10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. *11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. *12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. *13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. *14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. *15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Being 'in' Christ has to do with being united with Him through adoption. The Spirit takes up residence within the adopted child of God and he is made one with Christ, one with God, and one with all of the other adopted children of God. Not that each of the sons of God receive a different part of the Spirit, but we all receive the same Spirit and are therefore united together. (1 Cor 12:13)
The Bible refers to this union as:
Being in Christ
Putting on Christ
Being dwelt in by Christ like a house or tabernacle
Being the bride of Christ
Being the branches of His vine
Being members of His body
These are different ways of describing the same phenomenon.
And, by the way, being in Christ through adoption involves being elevated to the highest possible status and dignity, even that of Adam before the fall! (John 8:35) Therefore, to make being 'in' Christ some kind of Christian 'catch phrase' is to tear down at who Christ is and what He has done.
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit...5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. *10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. *11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. *12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. *13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. *14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. *15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Being 'in' Christ has to do with being united with Him through adoption. The Spirit takes up residence within the adopted child of God and he is made one with Christ, one with God, and one with all of the other adopted children of God. Not that each of the sons of God receive a different part of the Spirit, but we all receive the same Spirit and are therefore united together. (1 Cor 12:13)
The Bible refers to this union as:
Being in Christ
Putting on Christ
Being dwelt in by Christ like a house or tabernacle
Being the bride of Christ
Being the branches of His vine
Being members of His body
These are different ways of describing the same phenomenon.
And, by the way, being in Christ through adoption involves being elevated to the highest possible status and dignity, even that of Adam before the fall! (John 8:35) Therefore, to make being 'in' Christ some kind of Christian 'catch phrase' is to tear down at who Christ is and what He has done.
chuckd
Puritan Board Junior
Thank you for your post. It really helps. Is this union in any way an imperative? Meaning in your list, it seems some are imperative, some are passive, and some are (for lack of a better term) identity:
Being in Christ - identity
Putting on Christ - imperative
Being dwelt in by Christ like a house or tabernacle - passive
Being the bride of Christ - identity
Being the branches of His vine - identity
Being members of His body - identity
Being in Christ - identity
Putting on Christ - imperative
Being dwelt in by Christ like a house or tabernacle - passive
Being the bride of Christ - identity
Being the branches of His vine - identity
Being members of His body - identity
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
I would argue that all of your "identity" statements are all of the same kind as the "passive" one you list. Each of those is a statement of what it is to be in union with Christ - all of them being passive indicate the nature of that union, which is effected by God's sovereign act, and not our own doing. We are passive recipients of that union, and cannot in any sense bring it about. It occurs by God's work alone (WLC 66-68). I'd differ with Ken on whether one ought to list "putting on Christ" in the same list, for the reason you note - because it is not a passive, but an active reflex act. We are surely given the "put on Christ" command as an imperative, and while none can in fact put on Christ in any sense unless he is in union with Christ, I'd not call it a description of that union. Perhaps I need to think about it more, but I'm not sure I'd have offered that particular phrase as such.
chuckd
Puritan Board Junior
The branches and the vine could also be seen as an imperative - to abide (i.e. keep his commandments).
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:1-10
I guess, I'd like to return to the semantic difference between a person living in another person and through another person.
We through Christ. (1 Cor. 8:6)
We in Christ. (2 Tim. 3:12)
Christ in us. (Gal. 2:20)
Christ through us. (no support)
How are the first three correct and the fourth error? What are the theological implications of us living through Christ, but not him through us?
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:1-10
I guess, I'd like to return to the semantic difference between a person living in another person and through another person.
We through Christ. (1 Cor. 8:6)
We in Christ. (2 Tim. 3:12)
Christ in us. (Gal. 2:20)
Christ through us. (no support)
How are the first three correct and the fourth error? What are the theological implications of us living through Christ, but not him through us?
There does seem to be a passive and an active principle involved, for John 6:37 says, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me..." In other words,, just because it is reflexive doesn't mean it is not active.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
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