Hello Charles – a few thoughts on your remark above.
Yes, the method of interpretation for Daniel is not equivalent to the apocalyptic work of Revelation. It is the point of Daniel to declare the specific kingdoms and nations and their qualities, and the historical progression of these kingdoms' and their declines and downfalls. Yes, Daniel uses symbols and imagery to depict rulers and kingdoms
in history. It is explicitly stated to be historical. But it is not apocalyptic in genre as Revelation is.
While Revelation does deal with historical figures (though the pointing out of Nero is highly contested) and nations (it is clear that the Roman Empire is singled out as the beast from the sea in John's day), from the second century on in the
Apocalypse of Jesus – the uncovering of events are more spiritual dynamics reiterated (recapitulation is the term often used), such as gospel proclamation, then persecution, then judgments on the persecutors. These dynamics recapitulate up through the centuries, intensifying greatly as the end of the age draws nearer.
And there are many "beasts" – Christian-persecuting rulers and governments – up through the centuries, unidentified, and wars, etc, unidentified. There was no need to identify them, as the
nature of the age – wars, pestilences, famines, gross injustices – was foretold in the opening of the seals.
Nowhere – after the first century – is there any explicit nation or ruler indicated, named; and it is all essentially eisegesis to posit such. However – and it's a
big however – we are given hints of a
final beast antitype arising and gathering a coalition of nations to wreak destruction on nations opposing him and/or it, and especially to wreak destruction on the people of God, the Messiah's people, the Christians.
It is clear that the papal system so fits the beast character and activity that it is accurate in the interpretation that system is being spoken of, and identified by the Reformation leaders. But Islam and other attempts to identify nations or movements do not have that clarity or certainty.
It is also unclear that in the very end of the age and that beast spoken of, that he and/or it (as it may be a government as well as an individual) is part of the papal system. It is for this reason (of unclarity) that the American revision of the Westminster confession refers to the pope as
an antichrist or man of sin, and not
the antichrist.
The hermeneutic for understanding Revelation is markedly different than it is for Daniel. To repeat, Daniel explicitly identifies nations and rulers, whereas Revelation does not. Alexander the Great, and Antiochus Epiphanes were clearly referred to by ancient historians, and the wise among the Jews.
Further – to go into the idealist hermeneutic (which was modified from Wm. Milligan's full idealist approach, to Beale et al's "modified" or "eclectic" idealism, which allows some – i.e., very few – historical events. Beale himself says, “...certainly there are prophecies of the future in Revelation. The crucial yet problematic task of the interpreter is to identify through careful exegesis and against the historical background those texts which pertain respectively to past present and future.” (G.K.
Beale, New International Greek Testament Commentary: Revelation, Eerdmans 1999, p 49).
So far, none of the
contemporary "modified idealist" commentators have, apart from the 1st century doings, named specific historical events or people. Where I fit in – as a modified idealist – is identifying Revelation 9's fifth trumpet vision which depicts an angel opening the “bottomless pit” or “abyss” – the ability and authority to do this given by God – and out of the opening thus created poured such a cloud of thick, black smoke – as though from a huge furnace – that the sun and the air were made dark by it. And this heavy smoke belched forth demonic beings resembling a swarm of locusts that covered the whole earth, though not real locusts, as they were commanded not to hurt the earth and its greenery as locusts do, but to torment men for a set, limited period of time, and to torment them so badly they would want to die, but couldn’t bring themselves to do it.
Basically my view is this: what is shown in Rev 9:1,2,3,4's symbolic vision is an immense influx of demonic influence and presence darkening the spiritual / intellectual aspect of humankind's collective consciousness through the sorcery-enabling drugs –
pharmakeia, sorcery – spoken of in Revelation 18:23, 9:21, which are the very drugs used and heralded by the sixties and seventies counterculture of the U.S. that were exported into most of the world and which – in retrospect – are seen to constitute a prophesied event clearly depicted in Scripture. Geerhardus Vos, although speaking of discerning the Antichrist, enunciated
a principle applicable here,
“[It] belongs among the many prophecies, whose best and final exegete will be the eschatological fulfillment, and in regard to which it behooves the saints to exercise a peculiar kind of eschatological patience.” (The Pauline Eschatology, p. 133)
O.T. Allis in his book,
Prophecy and the Church, expressed the same sentiment:
“The usual view on this subject [‘the intelligibility of prophecy’] has been that prophecy is not intended to be fully understood before its fulfilment, that it is only when God ‘establishes the word of his servants and fulfills the counsel of his messengers,’ that the meaning and import of their words become fully manifest.” (p 25)
Stuart Olyott in his,
Dare to Stand Alone: Daniel Simply Explained, thinks likewise:
“We must realize that some of the Bible’s teachings relating to the very last days will not be understood until we are in those days. That is why it is both unwise and dangerous to draw up detailed timetables of future events. Some parts of the Word of God will not become obvious in their meaning until the days of which they speak have dawned.” (p 166)
These three men were amil eclectic idealists.
Recreational sorcery – initially a glorious time for the 60s and 70s counterculture, thinking they had been gifted with new sacraments – LSD, magic mushrooms, grass, hashish, DMT, and agents with like properties – and they knew there was a definite spiritual component to them, and they believed they now had the energy and inner resources to really change the world. Perhaps most of you younger folks haven't seen the Beatles' film,
The Yellow Submarine, but it was specifically about this supposed new spiritual revelation for the liberation of humankind.
But, after a while, the angelic and glorious wonder of the psychedelic revolution showed itself to be in essence demonic, as the human heart was not intrinsically good, but evil, and self-centered.
The Yellow Submarine sank, and with it the hopes and dreams of a vast generation. Some went to the East, to be seekers of the Oriental spirituality. The Christian faith was gutted in the eyes of multitudes, as the drugs supposedly showed that true spiritual power, even divinity – of some sort, at any rate – was within, and that there was no external God.
What we see now, some 60 years later, in our culture – the madness, vulgarity, violence, governmental disinformation and oppressive dystopian-type rule taking place – bespeak a new order of governance, a malign new order. Demonic influence and presence is rampant in the general populace.
I can understand and sympathize with the postmil view, it being very attractive and hopeful – long-run hopeful at any rate – given the evil of the present age.
Locating the fifth trumpet in an historical ongoing event (for this peculiar drug culture is expanding and intensifying today), and then morphing into the sixth trumpet where violence and global deaths are increasing – this gives us a general,
not a specific – idea that we are far along in the time left humankind.
To what, I ask those skeptical of what I am positing, do you attribute the
radical deterioration of our society and general culture? Evil is flooding our world like a tsunami. Something is afoot that is not natural.
At any rate, I just wanted to differentiate between the Old Testament's interpretive method, particularly Daniel's, and ours in the New Testament era. And to give a hint at new insights in Amil understanding. Here's a booklet on it:
Our Sorcerous Age: Prelude to Armageddon.
