AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
If a believer asked you, "I feel depressed and insecure, but I know I shouldn't be; is joy a choice?" how would you respond?
Is joy a choice?
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Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I would say it cannot be broadstroked. I have had family who had bad cases of clinical depression. They simply could not snap out of it or choose not to be depressed.
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Since you prefaced this in regards to believers, no I don't think it's simply a choice. John Piper talks a lot about this in his book, When I Don't Desire God. He argues that our joy comes from God and God alone. Sure I get joy from other things, but they all relate back to God. I enjoy good food - I am enjoying God's creation. I enjoy spending time with my wife - I am enjoying the Godly characteristics she exhibits toward me. I would tell a Christian struggling with joy to return to their first love and focus on finding joy in God. When they learn to love God and rejoice in Him, then the other areas of their life will take care of themselves.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
Alrighty, let me clarify. I am well aware of depression, bi-polar disorders, and other emotional/mental/clinical maladies. I have dealt with all of the above for years on a very personal level. If you want more information you can PM me. The statement that I posted above would obviously exclude those who have a physical/chemical inability to refocus their minds in a more healthy direction. If you go back and read threads where we have discussed medication usage in mental/emotional illnesses you will see where I have ardently argued that there is more going on than many, even pastors and counselors, know in these cases. I have argued, and often been smeared because of it, that denying medical treatment for clinical depression and bi-polar conditions is unwise at best and in many cases abusive. Regrettably, there is a strong bent among many conservative Biblical counselors to make all mental illness a purely spiritual issue. This makes as much sense as the Name and Claim it preacher telling the person with pancreatic cancer that if his faith were stronger he would be cured without medical intervention.
What I was referring to are those individuals who willfully remain focussed upon the negative slant of life. They then complain about their lack of joy. It is more common than you might think. I see it often in pastoral counseling. Ultimately it is an act of selfishness and is groomed to get attention and/or pity from others.
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And that is precisely what I am talking about.
Theoretical
Puritan Board Professor
I frequently feel depressed and insecure, but have most profoundly grown in joy while in precisely that state. It is a perspective of hope and trust in Christ, quite independent of circumstances. There's a huge difference between an ungodly pessimism and a darkly-tinged joy in Christ. The former pours ice water on another's good fortune, while the latter is buoyed by the demonstration of God's faithfulness and provision.
So yes, I do believe it is an often-difficult choice, especially in the midst of difficult providence.
as Lawrence says, it must be a bit of both - some people are just gloomy by nature (a lot of Scots for eg) but it should be possible for them, if they're believers, to focus consciously on the up side of life....as the hymn says, Count your blessings, name them one by one, And it will surprise you what the Lord has done!
Also some people are just naturally upbeat and cheerful - I know some like that too. It's a great blessing to them and to those around them, but it's not the result of choice. They aren\t necessarily further along the spiritual road than nature's Private Frazers
Also some people are just naturally upbeat and cheerful - I know some like that too. It's a great blessing to them and to those around them, but it's not the result of choice. They aren\t necessarily further along the spiritual road than nature's Private Frazers
CNJ
Puritan Board Senior
JennyG, thanks for the new term "Private James Frazers". I choose joy and when I can't I get on my knees. I have to do a lot of getting on my knees because of my husband's dementia, but basically it's one day at a time and yes, for today, for this moment, I choose joy because we know Scipture tells us in the world we will have suffering and we can count it all joy.
At times when we are bearing burdens of other Christians, we need to let our joy be under the surface and empathize with them and help them see that joy will come in the morning. Don't have time to look up the Scripture--going to go enjoy walking/jogging with my iPod full of Scripture and good sermons.
At times when we are bearing burdens of other Christians, we need to let our joy be under the surface and empathize with them and help them see that joy will come in the morning. Don't have time to look up the Scripture--going to go enjoy walking/jogging with my iPod full of Scripture and good sermons.
To some extent at least, joy is 'helped', 'made', and 'fulfilled' in you by the behavior of others.
2 Cor 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Phi 2:2 "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be like minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
2 Cor 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Phi 2:2 "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be like minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
TexanRose
Puritan Board Sophomore
I don't see how we could "think on these things": "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise..." without feeling uplifted! And I don't think God would have told us to focus on these things without giving us the ability to do so (in Christ). So yes, to a certain extent, joy is a choice.
Not to say that there aren't physical problems that can cause depression (thyroid issues, for instance)--there are! But if we are depressed, I think we ought to evaluate the condition of our hearts, and as Andrew said, our focus, as well as our physical condition.
This is slightly off-topic, but I think it's essential to teach our children to choose joy. If you allow a child to wallow in self-pity when he, say, loses a game, then he will become an adult who does the same. It's important to teach our children right attitudes as well as right behavior.
Not to say that there aren't physical problems that can cause depression (thyroid issues, for instance)--there are! But if we are depressed, I think we ought to evaluate the condition of our hearts, and as Andrew said, our focus, as well as our physical condition.
This is slightly off-topic, but I think it's essential to teach our children to choose joy. If you allow a child to wallow in self-pity when he, say, loses a game, then he will become an adult who does the same. It's important to teach our children right attitudes as well as right behavior.
Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
Without meaning to take depression lightly, I say this:
"Rejoice in the Lord always; again I say, rejoice" (Phil 4:4).
Since we're told to have joy, it must be a choice to some extent. But it applies to believers. A key here is that we choose joy "in the Lord." The verses that follow explain how to do so.
Simplifying here: When anxious, with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God, that his peace will guard your hearts and minds. Think on what is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely and praiseworthy. Practice what you have learned and received from the Scriptures. Learn contentment in all situations, confident that God will supply every need according to his riches in Christ Jesus.
Unbelievers can't do this. They may choose to be optimists, but have no basis for a deep, underlying joy. However we, because the Spirit has given us the grace to choose Jesus, also have the grace to choose joy.
"Rejoice in the Lord always; again I say, rejoice" (Phil 4:4).
Since we're told to have joy, it must be a choice to some extent. But it applies to believers. A key here is that we choose joy "in the Lord." The verses that follow explain how to do so.
Simplifying here: When anxious, with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God, that his peace will guard your hearts and minds. Think on what is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely and praiseworthy. Practice what you have learned and received from the Scriptures. Learn contentment in all situations, confident that God will supply every need according to his riches in Christ Jesus.
Unbelievers can't do this. They may choose to be optimists, but have no basis for a deep, underlying joy. However we, because the Spirit has given us the grace to choose Jesus, also have the grace to choose joy.
rbcbob
Puritan Board Graduate
Yes. Because obeying is a choice.
Philippians 4:4 Rejoice [χαι'ρετε] in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Sometimes I think we tend to confuse joy and happiness. Happiness is dependent on the circumstances, while joy in the Lord is something that could (if we weren't sinful) be experienced all the time. We can experience joy in the midst of grief and sorrow, in depression and even in the midst of utter happiness.
Joy is a deep satisfaction and pleasure that we find in God alone. I don't know that we can so much chose joy, as that it is a fruit of the Spirit. Joy and hope and love for God are all wrapped up together. God has often graciously given me joy in the midst of some of the most distressing and painful circumstances, sometimes He just gave it to me, and sometimes, I had to ask for it.
Joy is a deep satisfaction and pleasure that we find in God alone. I don't know that we can so much chose joy, as that it is a fruit of the Spirit. Joy and hope and love for God are all wrapped up together. God has often graciously given me joy in the midst of some of the most distressing and painful circumstances, sometimes He just gave it to me, and sometimes, I had to ask for it.
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