A big life choice and Dutch congregation recommendation

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Seeking_Thy_Kingdom

Puritan Board Sophomore
I’m at a bit of a crossroads and could use your advice.

After 15 years in California, I now live in the south of France. Life here is outwardly good—steady job, cheap apartment, great weather and food—but spiritually, it’s a desert. I’ve been surviving at an Anglican church that’s basically apostate, and there are no alternatives.

I’m a Dutch citizen and could move back to the Netherlands. Housing is tough and I’d need new work, but the big draw is that I could settle near a solid Reformed gemeente and finally get rooted in a faithful church instead of living on spiritual scraps.

So it feels like a Genesis 13 choice: Stay here with comfort but spiritual famine, or move back with challenges but real spiritual life.

Any advice? And for my fellow Nederlanders here—what gemeenten or congregations would you recommend for someone used to OPC/RPCNA?
 
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I’m at a bit of a crossroads and could use your advice.

After 15 years in California, I now live in the south of France. Life here is outwardly good—steady job, cheap apartment, great weather and food—but spiritually, it’s a desert. I’ve been surviving at an Anglican church that’s basically apostate, and there are no alternatives.

I’m a Dutch citizen and could move back to the Netherlands. Housing is tough and I’d need new work, but the big draw is that I could settle near a solid Reformed gemeente and finally get rooted in a faithful church instead of living on spiritual scraps.

So it feels like a Genesis 13 choice: Stay here with comfort but spiritual famine, or move back with challenges but real spiritual life.

Any advice? And for my fellow Nederlanders here—what gemeenten or congregations would you recommend for someone used to OPC/RPCNA?
Where in Southern France are you? There is a Reformed church in Pau.
 
I have sent an inquiry to a missionary in Aix-en-Provence who is supported by our church; he is involved in an annual reformed conference that takes place in Paris as well, and I believe he gives reformed training to other pastors. Perhaps he can put you in contact with a suitable church in the area.
 
I am in Nice, in the South-East
Do you have enough French to worship in a French language church? Per AI UNEPREF has some congregations in the Southeast.

 
Do you have enough French to worship in a French language church? Per AI UNEPREF has some congregations in the Southeast.

That’s good point. Getting up to speed in French may be easier than moving back to the Netherlands.
 
Thank you all for the kind, thoughtful responses and prayers.

There is a UNEPREF Church just under 2 hours away, I will reach out to them this week and visit next Lords day.
 
Maybe @Hugues Pierre would know of something going on in Nice?
Thanks for asking.

There are no confessionnal Reformed congregations in Nice area. I have heard of a Particular Baptist congregation in Aix-en-Provence (if I recall correctly).

My advice would be to stay far from the UNEPREF. The denomination is not confessional nor always evangelical. And they have women ministers.
 
Prayers for you, brother! A Dutch Reformed congregation in the Netherlands will likely feel much different from the OPC/RPCNA regardless of its denomination. I would personally recommend finding a conservative congregation of the Christelijke Gereformeerde Kerken in Nederland (CGK), a historically orthodox and experiential denomination that preaches a warm, evangelical message: https://cgk.nl/en/. A word of caution, however, as there has been a rupture in the CGK as of late regarding female office bearers. Another option would be the Gerefermeerd Bond: https://gereformeerdebond.nl/. They are a strong association of conservative and confessional churches still within the mainline Hervormde Kerk (PkN). A third solid option would be the Hersteld Hervormde Kerk (HHK): https://www.hersteldhervormdekerk.nl/, which left the Hervormde Kerk in 2004 and maintains strong ties to the Bond and the orthodox-experiential wing of the Reformed Kerk.
 
A key question here is whether you speak French or Dutch fluently enough to be able to benefit from a church in that language. I'm assuming since you are living and working in France that you speak French, but that's not always a good assumption. There are international companies with operations in Europe that communicate primarily in English and are willing to hire English speakers who have some proficiency in the national language, but that's likely less common in France than some other parts of Europe given the well-known emphasis of the French on national pride and proper use of French.

Also, how far are you willing or able to drive to church? Do you have the ability to drive (or, since this is Europe, take the train) on Saturday evening to a city with a sound Reformed church, stay for Sunday with a local Reformed family, and return to work late Sunday night or early Monday morning in time to get to work on Monday? I know some Dutch Reformed people working in France or Germany who do precisely that -- driving to the Netherlands each weekend for church. But you're far enough in the south of France that a drive to the Netherlands is probably not realistic.

How about other languages? Do you speak enough Italian or German than a church worshipping in those languages would be possible for you?
 
There are international companies with operations in Europe that communicate primarily in English and are willing to hire English speakers who have some proficiency in the national language, but that's likely less common in France than some other parts of Europe given the well-known emphasis of the French on national pride and proper use of French.
That's not about pride but about respect and courtesy. To live and work in a foreign country without any will to learn the local language is utterly disrespectful.
 
Dear brother, if you come back to the netherlands i think cgk, a hervormde church in the pkn who belongs to the gereformeerde bond or a (hhk) church from the restored dutch reformed church are the best match i think. Several factors to concider are for example if you are used to singing hymns beside psalms or nor. Did you use KJV or NKJV/esv in church. Most churches in the hhk wil only sing psalms realy slow (iso ritmisch), and read the dutch KJV the sv. Most churches in the conservative wing of the pkn will have 1 or two hymns per service (weerklank) and the rest psalms and use the dutch NKJV the hsv. In the cgk you wil find churches of both kinds. In all of these churches you will find Christ centered sermons based on scripture. If you worry about the price of housing mabey you could try to find a house in overijssel/drenthe/groningen/friesland house outside the main cities like ansterdam, utrecht, den haag, rotterdam tend to be cheaper. Im a pastor in a hervormde geneente in the north. But i have preached trough most of the netherlands. If you want some extra info you can send a message.
 
HHK is Hersteld Hervormde kerk, Restored dutch reformed church.https://www.hersteldhervormdekerk.nl The split from the main church in 2004, de Nederlands Hervormde kerk. Who merged in 2004 with the gereformeerde kerk, who was started by Abraham Kuyper in the 19th century, who most of you will know. It is know named the Protestant Church of the Netherlands (PKN). All churches in the Netherlands who are reformed hold to the 3 forms of unity (Heidelberg, Belgic conffesion and cannons of Dordt). But it does not function in all local churches (mostly liberal churches)
 
But it does not function in all local churches (mostly liberal churches)
Is this about the PKN or HHK too?

Does the HHK hold the original 3FU or did they edit something, similarly to how the URCNA deleted a part of the article on the civil magistrate?

What church order do they follow?
 
The Liberal Churches in the PKN, their are pastor who dont believe in the ressurection for example. Or people who have problems with the way Dordt states eternal election. The HHK and right wing of the PKN where mostley the same local churches but the split. Since 2004 the both developed their own culture. Some local churches choose to completely, with all members, remain or leave in the Hervormde kerk/PKN.

Both the PKN, CGK and HHK hold tot the forms as the where accepted at the Synod of Dordt, without deleted parts. Only Kuyper didn't believe in article 36 because he wanted to be prime minister and for that he needed support from the roman catholic political party. You can sit in the same cabinet with catholics and at the same time hold that the government needs to do something about them.

CGK > Revised church order from the Synod of Dordt
HHK > Revised Church order of the former Nederlands Hervormde Kerk
PKN > A new Church order made for the protestant Church

All churches have deacons, Elders and Pastors.
With the same structure Synod > classis (provincial council) > local church board (made up from elders, deacons and the pastor).
The church order can be found on the internet and with google translate you will be able to read them.



 
Rev. Hugues Pierre, it appears that I have unintentionally offended a brother, so I need to apologize for the offense and also to explain what I meant.

As you may know, the connotations of the word "pride" in American English can be a good or a bad thing. Context counts. In no way did I mean to be derogatory of French national pride in their country or their language. What I did mean to do was to contrast the attitude in France with that of a number of other European countries where international businesses may operate primarily in English and downplay national pride in favor of some sort of "cosmopolitan world unity" in which English has become, by default, the language of commerce and business for a number of international companies.

I did not say, and I definitely did not mean to imply, that such an attitude is wrong. In fact, while I don't want to tell people in other countries how they should operate, I probably agree with the French attitude of national pride more than I disagree with it. You may not know this, but I am married to a Korean. A New York Times article a few years ago, when trying to describe the level of Korean nationalism in how its business culture operates, described Korea as being "France, cubed." In other words, far greater nationalism is found in Korean than even among the French, who are regarded in much of the Anglosphere as having "written the book" on national pride and self-identity.

I wish that French national pride were connected more with its Christian heritage than with the "laïcisme" of post-Revolutionary French cultural and political life, but you live there, I don't, and I don't think that as an outsider I'm the right person to comment on that in any detail.

Bottom line: I probably agree with you that to "live and work in a foreign country without any will to learn the local language is utterly disrespectful," with the caveat that for an increasing number of international businesses, it simply isn't a priority for the employer and therefore isn't seen by the employees as being disrespectful. I sense that in your French context, your problem today is not low-wage immigrant Italian laborers (look up the back story of the "Marina, Marina" song if you want to see some of how Italians were treated in both Belgium and France during the 1950s and 1960s) who were willing to learn French but were still attacked as "outsiders," but rather with people from the part of the world that the Battle of Tours kept out of France, and who object to learning French and object to "laicisme," not out of Christian reasons of opposition to secularism, but out of anti-Christian reasons because they want to replace French culture with something utterly contrary to all of its history.

Brother, you have a difficult ministry in France. You know that.

I wish you well in a part of the world where not only the Reformed faith but the basics of the Gospel itself are largely unknown. France is a very long way from the days of the Huguenots, or before that, of Peter Waldo in Lyon and the south of France.

I can complain about my problems in the rural Missouri Ozarks where it's hard to find a Calvinist. In your part of the world, it's hard to find a church that is evangelical at all.

A key question here is whether you speak French or Dutch fluently enough to be able to benefit from a church in that language. I'm assuming since you are living and working in France that you speak French, but that's not always a good assumption. There are international companies with operations in Europe that communicate primarily in English and are willing to hire English speakers who have some proficiency in the national language, but that's likely less common in France than some other parts of Europe given the well-known emphasis of the French on national pride and proper use of French.
That's not about pride but about respect and courtesy. To live and work in a foreign country without any will to learn the local language is utterly disrespectful.
 
I’m at a bit of a crossroads and could use your advice.

After 15 years in California, I now live in the south of France. Life here is outwardly good—steady job, cheap apartment, great weather and food—but spiritually, it’s a desert. I’ve been surviving at an Anglican church that’s basically apostate, and there are no alternatives.

I’m a Dutch citizen and could move back to the Netherlands. Housing is tough and I’d need new work, but the big draw is that I could settle near a solid Reformed gemeente and finally get rooted in a faithful church instead of living on spiritual scraps.

This is a tricky situation for sure. I'm not sure what led you to France, but I would absolutely exhaust any and all efforts to find like-minded believers where you're at before I up and moved to an entirely new country. Precedence for that? Sure, but that would be exceedingly difficult I would think with no guarantee life in all of its parts would be easier/better in the Netherlands. I'll pray for your discernment in this matter.
 
Some friends went to a wedding in Lyon that was held at this Anglican church, which they said was a very reverent Prayer book service and the church itself appears to be on the evangelical wing. https://lyonchurch.org/Wordpress/about-us/289-2/

There's a French-speaking PCA church plant in Lyon that my friends then went to and while neither understood French, they could tell it was a serious congregation and the Lord's Supper, because it followed the same pattern and practice of their PCA church back home meant they understood and followed along well. I've also heard a presbycast interview with the pastor that was very solid. A Google translate of some of their posted sermons shows them to be a pretty solid place. https://www.egliselyongerland.org/
* https://presbycast.libsyn.com/land-of-the-huguenots-no-more-the-church-in-france-with-sarran-borvan
* https://theaquilareport.com/about-confessional-presbyterian-church-planting-in-calvins-homeland/

It's 4 hrs away it would seem, so it's not especially practical except perhaps once per month.
 
So a bigger question is how well do you understand French? If you understand it decently to somewhat, then you at the minimum likely have some options right in Nice that will at least be an opportunity to gather with other Christians, though I suspect conservative paedobaptists or Reformed Baptists are going to be fairly rare in these settings, but NOT being around brothers and sisters in the Lord is a luxury none of us can afford absent the most intentional of circumstances that ideally eliminate that hardship (i.e. serving as a missionary to an unreached or burned over area).

Bear in mind that I'm relying on Google Translate of the websites as I'm not a Francophone.

https://ebbn.org/confession_de_foi/ - this looks like a pretty standard Baptist church but at least has basic evangelical doctrine
https://eglisebaptistenice.wixsite.com/feeb/qui-sommes-nous - definitively and distinctly Baptist
https://eelcannes.org/ - Free Evangelical Church of Cannes - also Baptist
https://sitev2.epe-antibes.fr/ - also Baptist, but seems a bit more cognizant of French Reformed history
https://www.eglisepessicartnice.fr/ - low information but it at least claims to be evangelical

English Bible church:
https://ibcfrance.org/about-us-nice/ - I'm not pleased with the 2CVs in their Gospel presentation video, but it's clear and definitely evangelical (old meaning) in bent. I'd imagine there's a lot of disparate people in a congregation like this.

Are these ideal for someone Dutch Reformed that's used to the OPC or RPCNA? Definitely not. But they're local options that may be better or worse from each other but almost certainly are better than a non-Evangelical Anglican church like you described (if it's the one I think it is, then just from the website, it's not a good option).

2 hours away from Nice, bearing in mind Hugues Pierre's caution about the UNEPREF denomination, you do have this Reformed Evangelical church: https://www.epre-aix.fr/ I can't dig too deeply into this church not being a Francophone, but it at least appears the sermons are preached by men.
 
Rev. Hugues Pierre, it appears that I have unintentionally offended a brother, so I need to apologize for the offense and also to explain what I meant.

As you may know, the connotations of the word "pride" in American English can be a good or a bad thing. Context counts. In no way did I mean to be derogatory of French national pride in their country or their language. What I did mean to do was to contrast the attitude in France with that of a number of other European countries where international businesses may operate primarily in English and downplay national pride in favor of some sort of "cosmopolitan world unity" in which English has become, by default, the language of commerce and business for a number of international companies.

I did not say, and I definitely did not mean to imply, that such an attitude is wrong. In fact, while I don't want to tell people in other countries how they should operate, I probably agree with the French attitude of national pride more than I disagree with it. You may not know this, but I am married to a Korean. A New York Times article a few years ago, when trying to describe the level of Korean nationalism in how its business culture operates, described Korea as being "France, cubed." In other words, far greater nationalism is found in Korean than even among the French, who are regarded in much of the Anglosphere as having "written the book" on national pride and self-identity.

I wish that French national pride were connected more with its Christian heritage than with the "laïcisme" of post-Revolutionary French cultural and political life, but you live there, I don't, and I don't think that as an outsider I'm the right person to comment on that in any detail.

Bottom line: I probably agree with you that to "live and work in a foreign country without any will to learn the local language is utterly disrespectful," with the caveat that for an increasing number of international businesses, it simply isn't a priority for the employer and therefore isn't seen by the employees as being disrespectful. I sense that in your French context, your problem today is not low-wage immigrant Italian laborers (look up the back story of the "Marina, Marina" song if you want to see some of how Italians were treated in both Belgium and France during the 1950s and 1960s) who were willing to learn French but were still attacked as "outsiders," but rather with people from the part of the world that the Battle of Tours kept out of France, and who object to learning French and object to "laicisme," not out of Christian reasons of opposition to secularism, but out of anti-Christian reasons because they want to replace French culture with something utterly contrary to all of its history.

Brother, you have a difficult ministry in France. You know that.

I wish you well in a part of the world where not only the Reformed faith but the basics of the Gospel itself are largely unknown. France is a very long way from the days of the Huguenots, or before that, of Peter Waldo in Lyon and the south of France.

I can complain about my problems in the rural Missouri Ozarks where it's hard to find a Calvinist. In your part of the world, it's hard to find a church that is evangelical at all.
My apologies, brother, not to have understood correctly what you were saying.
Thank you for explaining your thoughts further. It is genuinely appreciated. May the Lord bless you in your service for Christ.
 
My apologies, brother, not to have understood correctly what you were saying.
Thank you for explaining your thoughts further. It is genuinely appreciated. May the Lord bless you in your service for Christ.

Gratefully accepted, Brother.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the current controversy in the United States regarding "Christian Nationalism," which has (in my view) gone off the rails by conflating ethnicity with how Christ's crown rights apply to political entities. I have been steering clear of discussion of national identity and how ethnicity applies to that because I don't want to be associated with ethnic bigots who might, if given the chance, make my interracial marriage illegal.

But my ancestors are from Italy, and I am very much aware of the role of building a national identity based on shared Italian ethnic heritage that was central to the Risorgimento in Italy, and the parallel movement in creation of the German Empire, and centuries earlier, in the creation of a unified French state as the French monarchs slowly absorbed the once-independent small principalities of what is now southern and southeastern France, including major cities like Lyon. You, unlike most people reading here, live on the Continent. If I say that my ancestors are from the Italian Alps where they had to assert an Italian identity against "foreign" influences during the 1800s and early 1900s, you'll understand the issues in ways most people in the United States will not. This wasn't just ancient history; as recently as the outbreak of World War II, the Italian House of Savoy insisted on being given back their historic Savoyard territories in far southeastern France on the west side of what is now the Italian-French border. It didn't make any sense politically or economically, but the reigning monarchs of Italy had a centuries-old dispute with the French and took the opportunity to take the territory.

Much of this makes little sense to Americans. The United States, as a multiethnic immigrant society, is an outlier in world history.

Many of the criticisms in America of French "ethnic pride" are made by Americans who are ignorant of European history, not uncommonly including the history of their own ancestors before they emigrated to America. When I hear an American with a Polish last name criticizing the French for being "too proud of being French" following a two-week vacation in France, I feel like reminding that person that Poland would not exist today if it had not been for Polish national pride in an ethnic identity when Poland was repeatedly partitioned and for many years no longer even existed as a government.

Other criticisms of "national pride" are made by people whose view of "internationalism" owes more to pre-Stalinist versions of communist and socialist "one world" ideals than they admit, or sometimes than they even know themselves because "one world" assumptions and "cosmopolitanism" have become part of the accepted liberal worldview in much of the West.

When Americans blast the French for "pride in their Frenchness and their language," far too often they're taking American presuppositions that simply don't apply to Europe and don't realize that what they're blaming the French for doing is what nearly all European nations had been doing for centuries until just the last half of the 1900s, or they are uncritically accepting a European anti-nationalist view of cosmopolitan internationalism that really is quite foreign to conservative politics.

This isn't just political theory. It directly affects mission work.

A Protestant church in Italy needs to "look Italian and appreciate the Christian heritage of Italy." A Protestant church in France needs to "look French and appreciate the Christian heritage of France." Same for Protestants in Spain or any other European nation with a strong ethnic heritage.

If it doesn't, it ends up being attacked as "those ignorant American evangelicals who don't care anything about our culture and our heritage, and think we all need to worship with hands in the air when they aren't clapping, and singing from an overhead projector to the accompaniment of guitars."

In other words, French or Spanish or Italian people end up rejecting the gospel because it "looks like Americans who don't value history or heritage."

Conservative Christians in foreign missions need to understand the cultures into which they come, and "buy in" when possible.

Much about the success of Korean Presbyterianism has to do with successfully co-opting the pre-existing Confucian model of traveling village teachers, and teaching Koreans, very much like what the Apostle Paul once did in Greece with the altar to an unknown God, that the unknown Korean deity in the pre-Buddhist shamanistic Korean worldview, known as "hannanim" (translated to "most holy one") about whom nothing could be known but who was remote and had created the world and all in it, was the Creator God of the Bible. When the Japanese persecutors tried to force Korean Christians to bow to the emperor of the hated Japanese occupiers and worship the Japanese emperor as god, Korean Christians came to be viewed as heroic advocates of Korean nationalism who were willing to die rather than worship the Japanese emperor. Secular Koreans looked to Christians in Korea, and rather than regarding Christianity as a foreign faith, said, "these people are better Koreans than we are, because they are willing to die for their faith by refusing to worship the emperor, while we bow to the imperial Shinto shrine to save our lives."

Tapping into nationalism and building an indigenous national church are not bad things. It worked in Korea, and worked spectacularly.

It might well be what worked five centuries ago in the Netherlands and Scotland, and what the Huguenots tried to do in France.

The gospel is more important than ethnicity. I know that. Salvation is by grace, not by race, and we forget that at our peril.

But if we don't understand the culture of a country where we want to bring the gospel, what we're usually doing in fact is bringing American values into a foreign country, and that rarely works very well.
 
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