Is This Antinomianism?

[RamistThomist]

I dont know about this Jacob. Every time telos is used, could you imagine translating it goal? Try it I did, and it left me shaking my head

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.(goal)

Jhn 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.(goal)

Phl 3:19 Whose end(goal) [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Note that I didn't say translate it as goal everytime. I just said, like with many Greek words, that there are other meanings as well. The meaning I suggested preserves Christians ethics, though as one noted, the harem sounds cool.

Jacob, I need to find a good answer for this Christian ethics thought. I honestly do not know how to respond when I hear that. Or if not God's law then Man's law. I know it is a false dichotomy, and means very little if anything, but I cannot put my thoughts into coherent words at this time.

It is not either Sinai Law or anarchy, that I know.

If the law is no longer binding, then why can't I set up a harem? Given his premise (law is not binding), you can't deny the conclusion, logically speaking.

 

[KMK]

I can appreciate Lloyd Jones' sentiment about desiring to sound antinomian, but shouldn't we really desire to sound biblical?

AS all pithy sayings go, they are not to be examined under a microscope. Basically Jones is saying that Grace can NEVER be elevated too much. And he for one is biblical also. So when you preach, you know your heart, and if you have not been accused wrongly of this, then you are not preaching grace as it should be preached.

I agree in that grace is present throughout the scriptures so no matter where you are preaching from, grace is bound to be present. But I disagree that preachers should 'aspire' in any way to be accused of antinomianism. I have never been accused of antinomianism but that may be because mosts of the people I preach to would not know what that word means.

 

[Amazing Grace]

I can appreciate Lloyd Jones' sentiment about desiring to sound antinomian, but shouldn't we really desire to sound biblical?

AS all pithy sayings go, they are not to be examined under a microscope. Basically Jones is saying that Grace can NEVER be elevated too much. And he for one is biblical also. So when you preach, you know your heart, and if you have not been accused wrongly of this, then you are not preaching grace as it should be preached.

I agree in that grace is present throughout the scriptures so no matter where you are preaching from, grace is bound to be present. But I disagree that preachers should 'aspire' in any way to be accused of antinomianism. I have never been accused of antinomianism but that may be because mosts of the people I preach to would not know what that word means.

He was not saying one should aspire to that accusation , at least I do not believe he was. It should be a natural fruit of Sovereign Grace preaching.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Note that I didn't say translate it as goal everytime. I just said, like with many Greek words, that there are other meanings as well. The meaning I suggested preserves Christians ethics, though as one noted, the harem sounds cool.

Jacob, I need to find a good answer for this Christian ethics thought. I honestly do not know how to respond when I hear that. Or if not God's law then Man's law. I know it is a false dichotomy, and means very little if anything, but I cannot put my thoughts into coherent words at this time.

It is not either Sinai Law or anarchy, that I know.

If the law is no longer binding, then why can't I set up a harem? Given his premise (law is not binding), you can't deny the conclusion, logically speaking.

I do deny it though.

 

[RamistThomist]

Jacob, I need to find a good answer for this Christian ethics thought. I honestly do not know how to respond when I hear that. Or if not God's law then Man's law. I know it is a false dichotomy, and means very little if anything, but I cannot put my thoughts into coherent words at this time.

It is not either Sinai Law or anarchy, that I know.

If the law is no longer binding, then why can't I set up a harem? Given his premise (law is not binding), you can't deny the conclusion, logically speaking.

I do deny it though.

That's your prerogative, I guess. You would need to show logically how I am wrong. But if there is no law binding the Christian believer, then there is no way we can say _________ action is wrong.

And for the record, I am not positing the anarchy vs. God's law dichotomy. That's an intereting debate for another time. But my position doesn't demand voicing that dichotomy.

 

[Amazing Grace]

If the law is no longer binding, then why can't I set up a harem? Given his premise (law is not binding), you can't deny the conclusion, logically speaking.

I do deny it though.

That's your prerogative, I guess. You would need to show logically how I am wrong. But if there is no law binding the Christian believer, then there is no way we can say _________ action is wrong.

And for the record, I am not positing the anarchy vs. God's law dichotomy. That's an intereting debate for another time. But my position doesn't demand voicing that dichotomy.

Jacob, with all sincerity, what does it mean to bind or to be "the rule of life?"

 

[MW]

"The law of God has nothing to do with the believer."

One would expect to see an immediate clarification in terms of the believer "being under the law to Christ," as we find the apostle Paul does in 1 Cor. 9:21. The failure to make this clarification, and to assert the continuing obligation of the believer to the moral law in the hands of Christ, is Antinomianism.

 

[Theogenes]

I agree with what he said about not being under the law as a covenant of life. But the moral law is a guide to our grateful obedience. We live in obedience not by obedience. Our obedience does not commend us to God one bit. We are accepted in Christ alone. But He does this in order to set us free to serve Him with the law written on our hearts and enabling us by His Spirit.

 

[MW]

I agree with what he said about not being under the law as a covenant of life. But the moral law is a guide to our grateful obedience. We live in obedience not by obedience. Our obedience does not commend us to God one bit. We are accepted in Christ alone. But He does this in order to set us free to serve Him with the law written on our hearts and enabling us by His Spirit.

Yes; when the apostle says "Christ is the end of the law" he clearly states that it is "for righteousness."

 

[DMcFadden]

If the law is no longer binding, then why can't I set up a harem? Given his premise (law is not binding), you can't deny the conclusion, logically speaking.

Jacob, a "harem"??? Give me a break. With all of that running around Europe/Germany in those outfits you described recently, where are you gonna get time to marry one wife, let alone a harem.

 

[RamistThomist]

I do deny it though.

That's your prerogative, I guess. You would need to show logically how I am wrong. But if there is no law binding the Christian believer, then there is no way we can say _________ action is wrong.

And for the record, I am not positing the anarchy vs. God's law dichotomy. That's an intereting debate for another time. But my position doesn't demand voicing that dichotomy.

Jacob, with all sincerity, what does it mean to bind or to be "the rule of life?"

With regard to Daily living (Psalm 1, Proverbs 1-4), I mean the moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, and the general equity of its judicial applications.



I just thought of something: Maybe the book of Proverbs is an application of the law of God.

 

[RamistThomist]

If the law is no longer binding, then why can't I set up a harem? Given his premise (law is not binding), you can't deny the conclusion, logically speaking.

Jacob, a "harem"??? Give me a break. With all of that running around Europe/Germany in those outfits you described recently, where are you gonna get time to marry one wife, let alone a harem.

I grant your point.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Pursuant to the thread -

Galatians 5:

16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

And so:

I would say a harem is evidence that the flesh has not been crucified...and you are not being led by the Spirit.

 

[RamistThomist]

The harem reference was a joke to illustrate a point. In the above Paul is presuming continuity with the moral law at the very least (ala 1 Timothy 1:8ff). This is plain westminster theology

 

[JM]

I've read a lot of Pastor Fortner's works here's a few things I found doing a quick search.

Pastor Fortner's hymns:

I LOVE YOUR LAW, MY GOD
Don Fortner

(Tune: Stand Up and Bless The Lord #33 SM)

I love Your law, my God,
Delight in its commands:
Perfect are all its principles,
And just are its demands.

But I am all unclean,
No righteousness have I;
Should I by Your law try to live,
I must forever die!

Yet, Christ, Your holy Son,
Fulfilled the law for me!
He lived, and died, and paid my debt –
In Him I now am free!

Christ is my Righteousness,
And my Redemption too:
By faith in Him alone, my God,
Boldly, I come to you.

I LOVE YOUR HOLY LAW, MY GOD

Don Fortner

Love Your holy law, my God,
I love it in my heart;
And if I could I would obey
In spirit every part.

Your law is holy, just and good,
All perfect and all true;
But I'm a weak and sinful wretch:
Its works I cannot do.

And, yet, Your law condemns me not,
It's all been satisfied,
By Your own Son, my Substitute,
When He for sinners died!

In life Christ brought in righteousness,
Such as the law required:
In death He bore Your dreadful wrath,
And there the curse expired!

And now Your law's become my friend,
Demanding my release:
It points to Jesus slain for me,
And gives me perfect peace.

By faith in Jesus Christ I'm free,
From condemnation free!
For all Your law requires of me,
Christ Jesus is my plea!

IN Christ THE LAW IS MAGNIFIED
Don Fortner
(Tune: Only Trust Him #252 CM)

The Jews of old their sabbaths kept,
A picture of that rest
Which sinners find in Christ, who said,
"Come unto me and rest."

Refrain:

Look to Jesus, He has finished
All the law required:
Glory, glory, Christ has finished
All the law required!

Under the law they sacrificed
The blood of helpless lambs,
Pictures of Christ, the Lamb of God,
Who took away our sins.

By tithes those ancient ones confessed
That they belonged to God:
By willing faith we consecrate
Our all to Christ our God.

Helpless, we never could obey
The law's righteous commands;
But Jesus lived and died for us,
And met its just demands.

God's holy law points us to Christ,
Who fulfilled its designs:
In Christ the law is magnified
In Him its glory shines!

Quotes from his site:

The Lawful Use Of The Law

I Timothy 1:8-10

The law of God is holy, just and good. There is nothing in the law of God but that, which is the delight and desire of God's saints. "I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22). There is no such thing as a believer who is against the law. "The law is good, if a man use it lawfully."

What is the lawful use of the law? According to the Scriptures, I can find only four lawful uses of the law. It was given for these four purposes.

(1.) To Identify Sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7). The only true standard of right and wrong is the law of God. The only way a sinner knows what sin is is by the declaration of the law.

(2.) To condemn Men For Sin (Rom. 3:19). The law of God renders all men excuseless. It does not take into account the age, environment, education, or ability of the offender. Wherever it finds sin, it condemns the sinner.

(3.) To Control The Sinful Deeds Of Men (I Tim. 1:9-10). Contrary to popular social opinion, the fear of certain punishment is a very strong deterrent to crime. And that is a lawful use of the law.

(4.) "To Bring Us Unto Christ" (Gal. 3:24). The law afflicts and holds men and women in bondage until they come to Christ. It shows us our need of Christ, "that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

However, in our day, as in Paul' s there are many who have turned aside from the lawful use of the law into vain jangling," attempting to put God's saints under the rule of the law. These "teachers of the law" we must avoid, for they do not understand either the law or the gospel. To try to make the law do what only the grace of God in Christ can do is to pervert both the law and the gospel. The law cannot produce true conviction and repentance. Only the revelation of Christ can do that (Zech. 12:10). The law cannot justify the sinner. Only the blood of Christ can do that (Rom. 3:24). The law cannot sanctify the believer (Ga1. 3:3). Only the Spirit of God, forming Christ in the heart can sanctify. The law cannot rule or motivate one of God's children. We are not under the law, but under grace. We are ruled by faith in Christ, motivated by the love of Christ and governed by love for his people (I John 3:23; II Cor. 5:14).

“Wherefore Then Serveth The Law?”

Galatians 3:19

False teachers crept into the Church at Galatia convincing many that they must seek to live by the law, that the believer’s justification and sanctification were not accomplished by grace alone. They were clever deceivers, but deceivers nonetheless. They taught that we must be saved by grace, by faith in Christ, but that we must also keep the law. Their doctrine was an abominable mixture of grace and works. Paul boldly and dogmatically asserted that such doctrine must not be tolerated.

In Romans 11:6, he tells us, If we add our works to the grace of God, for justification, for sanctification, or for righteousness of any kind before God, then we deny the grace of God altogether and are lost, totally ignorant of the grace of God, without Christ, and without hope before the Holy Lord God.

In Galatians 2:21, having dashed in pieces the notion of mixing law and grace, he makes this bold, dogmatic assertion - “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law (justifying righteousness or sanctifying righteousness), then Christ is dead in vain!” The inspired apostle could not have used stronger language to state his case. He declares that those who teach that righteousness may be obtained before God by personal obedience to the law both frustrate the grace of God and assert that Christ died for nothing!

In Galatians 3:19, the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to raise and answer a most practical question. "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.”

Anticipating the carpings of the legalists who would denounce his doctrine, Paul states plainly what the singular purpose of God’s holy was and is. He knew that legalists would come along and say, “If the law has nothing to do with the believer, if it has nothing to do with our justification and nothing to do with our sanctification, if it is not to be used as a rule of life, why was it given? What is its use?”

The law was added because of transgressions. The law of God, (the ten commandments and the legal precepts of worship, civil government, and daily life given in the Old Testament) was never intended to be a means of righteousness, a means of grace, or a means of salvation. It was not given as a code of moral ethics. It was not given as the believer’s rule of life. It was not given as a motive for Christian service. It was not given as a measure of sanctification. It was not given to be the grounds of our assurance. It was not given as a basis for reward in heaven. The purpose of God’s holy law is to identify and expose man’s sin, shutting him up to Christ alone for acceptance with God (Rom. 3:19; 5:20).

Before any man is converted, he must be convinced of his sin and guilt. We preach the holy law of God to convince men of their sin. Before any man is given the newness of life in Christ, he must be slain by the law. The law is God’s deep cutting plow, by which he breaks up the fallow ground of a man’s heart and conscience, and prepares the soil for the gospel. As every farm boy knows, plowing is a difficult, but necessary process.

"They That Keep The Commandments Of God"
Rev. 14:12
Don Fortner

There are many who pretend to live by the rule of God's holy law and hope, by their imperfect obedience to the law, to win the favor of the perfectly holy God. God's people are not of this proud, legal, self- righteous spirit. The believer is not under the law, but under grace. He does not serve God from a principle of law. He is not motivated by the threats of punishment in the law, because he is dead to the law. The law has no terror for a dead man. And the believer is not motivated by the vain hope of reward from God by his works of obedience, because he is not of a mercenary spirit. He does not serve God for hire. Yet, only true believers, who refuse to live under the yoke of the law, are "they that keep the commandments of God."

We keep the law of God strictly and perfectly through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:31). The law requires perfect obedience and perfect satisfaction. And all who trust the Lord Jesus Christ give the law what it requires. Christ, as our Substitute, magnified the law and made it honorable. He perfectly obeyed the very letter and spirit of God's holy law for us. Then he poured out his life's blood as our Substitute at Calvary, rendering perfect satisfaction to the law's justice. By his obedience being imputed to us, all who believe are made righteous before the law. As we read the law, we look to Christ by faith and keep the law.

We also keep the commandments of God personally. God's saints are not legalists. We do not live by the rule of the law. But we are not lawless. We delight in the law of God after the inner man (Rom. 7:22), keeping it in our hearts with joy. And our lives are governed by the Word of God, his revealed will, in its entirety. That which God teaches and commands, it is our delight to believe and do, because we love him (I John 5:1-3). The source and essence of the believer's obedience to God is faith in and love for Christ.

From his work titled, "Basic Bible Doctrine"

"Until we are one with Christ, we are out of harmony with God’s creation. If you are yet without Christ, come to him now. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Come, enter into that blessed sabbath of faith portrayed in Genesis 2:1-3."Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Cease from your works as God did from his, and trust, rest in the Lord Jesus Christ as your only, all-sufficient Savior. If you do, you are a new creation in Christ!"

From "Grace for Today" when writing about Christmas:

"...as believers, we must not be brought into a bondage observance of any day. We must not honor one day above another. We do not observe holy days and sabbath days of any kind."

From "Discovering Christ in All the Scriptures"

"That is where you and I began this thing we call salvation. The Lord Jesus Christ, our great Joshua, brought us into the blessed possession of grace, salvation, and eternal life, and gave us rest. He called us to rest in him and graciously forced us to do so (Matt. 11:28-30; Ps. 65:4). There is no rest like the rest of faith in Christ. This is our sabbath. We rest in Christ, trusting his righteousness as our only righteousness before God, his redemption as our only atonement for sin, and his rule (his universal dominion and disposition of all things in providence for our souls’ good) as our great King."

"And we must never allow anyone to bring us back under the “rudiments of the world,” Mosaic ordinances. The rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law: Circumcision, abstaining from certain meats, sabbath observance, and all such things were altogether typical. Christ has fulfilled them all. Any observance of such things today is sinful. All true worship is spiritual. God is not worshipped where dead men and women observe dead, carnal ordinances. There is absolutely no need for men to observe these things, seek any other foundation of hope before God, or look anywhere else for acceptance with God. Christ is all we need."

"Christ is better than the sabbath (4:9-11). The Old Testament sabbath was, like everything else in Old Testament worship, typical of Christ who is our true Sabbath. The sabbath rest of faith in Christ was typified by God ceasing from his works of creation and resting on the seventh day, and in Israel resting in Canaan. As the Lord God ceased from his works, sinners enter into rest when they cease from their works and trust Christ alone for acceptance with God. Just as surely as Christ our Substitute has entered into his rest in glory, there is a vast multitude of sinners in this world who must also enter into his rest. They must enter in because God ordained it, and because Christ has obtained it for us."

"Life After Pentecost"

"It is the natural tendency of proud human flesh to say, "Grace is not enough. God requires something from man." While declaring that salvation is by grace, they add law keeping, sabbath observance, adherence to religious traditions and customs to the grace of God. In doing so, they destroy the doctrine of grace. Anything done by man, when added to Christ, or added to the grace of God, for justification, sanctification, or any other aspect of salvation, makes the blood of Christ and the grace of God to be of noneffect (Gal. 5:1-4).Grace and works will not mix (Rom. 11:6: Eph. 2:8-10). Grace producers good works. But grace is not caused by, dependent upon, or even influenced by our works!"

Peace,

j

 

[Amazing Grace]

The harem reference was a joke to illustrate a point. In the above Paul is presuming continuity with the moral law at the very least (ala 1 Timothy 1:8ff). This is plain westminster theology

If Paul says 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. how can this Law be my rule of life when I am not under it and led by the Spirit? WHat does it mean to be not under it other than to not be led by it? Is Paul saying we are led by both the Spirit and Law?

Jacob:

Again I need something more than:With regard to Daily living (Psalm 1, Proverbs 1-4), I mean the moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, and the general equity of its judicial applications.


How does this become binding and the rule of life. They are vague words that can be shaped into many different understandings. Does it mean that without the ML, one would act as a heathen continuously? The Law was given to Israel, and yet they forsoke God continuously, so what is it supposed to do for the NC believers daily walk? I struggle with this question..

 

[Semper Fidelis]

The Lawful Use Of The Law

I Timothy 1:8-10

The law of God is holy, just and good. There is nothing in the law of God but that, which is the delight and desire of God's saints. "I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22). There is no such thing as a believer who is against the law. "The law is good, if a man use it lawfully."

What is the lawful use of the law? According to the Scriptures, I can find only four lawful uses of the law. It was given for these four purposes.

(1.) To Identify Sin (Rom. 3:20; 7:7). The only true standard of right and wrong is the law of God. The only way a sinner knows what sin is is by the declaration of the law.

(2.) To condemn Men For Sin (Rom. 3:19). The law of God renders all men excuseless. It does not take into account the age, environment, education, or ability of the offender. Wherever it finds sin, it condemns the sinner.

(3.) To Control The Sinful Deeds Of Men (I Tim. 1:9-10). Contrary to popular social opinion, the fear of certain punishment is a very strong deterrent to crime. And that is a lawful use of the law.

(4.) "To Bring Us Unto Christ" (Gal. 3:24). The law afflicts and holds men and women in bondage until they come to Christ. It shows us our need of Christ, "that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

However, in our day, as in Paul' s there are many who have turned aside from the lawful use of the law into vain jangling," attempting to put God's saints under the rule of the law. These "teachers of the law" we must avoid, for they do not understand either the law or the gospel. To try to make the law do what only the grace of God in Christ can do is to pervert both the law and the gospel. The law cannot produce true conviction and repentance. Only the revelation of Christ can do that (Zech. 12:10). The law cannot justify the sinner. Only the blood of Christ can do that (Rom. 3:24). The law cannot sanctify the believer (Ga1. 3:3). Only the Spirit of God, forming Christ in the heart can sanctify. The law cannot rule or motivate one of God's children. We are not under the law, but under grace. We are ruled by faith in Christ, motivated by the love of Christ and governed by love for his people (I John 3:23; II Cor. 5:14).

It's not that he completely misses the mark but he does deny the so-called "third use" even as he comes up with four uses above.

He seems to grasp that the Law, in fact, condemns men and, in the recognition of our curse under it, drives us to the Cross. But then he fails to see the transition in Galatians 5 where the believer is almost said to die on one side of the Law (the curse) in Christ but rise in newness of life on the other side of the Law where the true end is found only after a man is set free from the bondage of sin and death.

Why? Because the Law is like a multi-faceted description of the character of God. This is why it can both be a source of fear and trembling, fire and smoke for the Israelites who were in the flesh but a source of delight for David. Both are seeing in the Law a Holy God but the flesh sees one thing and the man of the spirit sees another.

This is, in fact, his defect on the Sabbath as well where Hebrews 4 repudiates his very thinking that the Sabbath Day was nothing more than some sort of limited physical thing. Joshua and then David were pointing to enjoyment of entering the Sabbath that God entered in Creation where He ceased from His work. The reason we perpetually enjoy that one day in seven is to anticipate a final rest from sin and death and perfect communion. It's crass and dispensational to think that Joshua and other saints were simply delighting in the Sabbath for its ceremonial practice.

Look, I'm glad that guy's not preaching Law. At least he's not telling people to trust in themselves but he also lacks the mature expression of the purpose of the Law and, in fact, the pedagogical use and delight of the Law that a believer is encouraged to seek after they are established that Christ is the end of righteousness for the Law. In seeking to guard against a legalistic falling back into the Law he over-corrects to the point where the listener cannot appreciate Paul's use in Galatians 5 and 6.

 

[Grymir]

I've heard it said too, that if you ain't accused of being an antinomian, you ain't preachin the gospel properly. And I thought that was the purpose of preaching, to get the gospel out. Because you are to convict people of their sins, to show that they can't do it, and then give them the sweet message of salvation to be found in our Savior.

And anybody that thinks they can keep the law for even one second is deluding themselves. Real sanctification is not that we think we are doing better, but the realization that we need Jesus more.

 

[panta dokimazete]

The harem reference was a joke to illustrate a point. In the above Paul is presuming continuity with the moral law at the very least (ala 1 Timothy 1:8ff). This is plain westminster theology

Sorry, wasn't trying to bash you, just introducing a point.

To recapitulate:

It is my understanding that those without the Spirit are still under the law.

That is - it acts as accuser and additional justification for final judgment as well as acting as a temporal restraint.

Those led by the Spirit still delight in the law of the Lord (at a minimum the moral law) and align with it in many ways as they are convicted through the sanctification process - inasmuch as it aligns them with with Christ's commandments, but they will not be judged by it.

However, we bring God glory by living Spirit led lives that will never dishonor or contradict the moral law.

So the antinomian, in effect, is against the Word and the Spirit.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I've heard it said too, that if you ain't accused of being an antinomian, you ain't preachin the gospel properly. And I thought that was the purpose of preaching, to get the gospel out. Because you are to convict people of their sins, to show that they can't do it, and then give them the sweet message of salvation to be found in our Savior.

And anybody that thinks they can keep the law for even one second is deluding themselves. Real sanctification is not that we think we are doing better, but the realization that we need Jesus more.

We obviously need to be careful to use that as the gauge for whether or not one is really preaching the Gospel. It depends upon who is accusing of antinomianism. After all, if the maxim is true then any time someone is accuse of antinomianism then, by definition, they must be preaching the true Gospel. This is obviously not the case or, by definition, Joel Osteen preaches the Gospel properly as the charge of antinomianism is appropriate for him.

It is certainly true that Paul always anticipates the objection that the Gospel is a license for sin against the charge of the Church of Moral Improvement but his tenor is different than the above. His tenor is that we are now free to obey and not free from God's character. Surely we are saved by Christ's righteousness but that then forms the basis and the motivation to pursue God and His kingdom - not for acceptance but because of adoption. To imply that the Law is then cut out from our thinking is to imply that everything that we can learn about our Father by looking at His Law is now immaterial.

Blessings!

Rich

 

[AV1611]

If Paul says 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. how can this Law be my rule of life when I am not under it and led by the Spirit? WHat does it mean to be not under it other than to not be led by it? Is Paul saying we are led by both the Spirit and Law?

The important thing to bear in mind is that the word "law" has multiple meanings. R. L. Dabney notes:

The word "Law," (hr;/T, nomo ) is employed in the Scripture with a certain latitude of meaning, but always carrying the force of meaning contained in the general idea of a regulative principle. First, it sometimes expresses the whole of Revelation, as in Ps. 1:2. Second, the whole Old Testament, as in John 10:34. Third, frequently the Pentateuch, as in Luke 24:44. Fourth, the preceptive moral law (Prov. 28:4; Rom. 2:14. Fifth, the ceremonial code, as in Heb. 10:1. Sixth, the decalogue, Matt. 22:36-40. Seventh, a ruling power in our nature, as in Rom. 7:23. Eighth, the covenant of works, Rom. 6:14.​

We also need to recall that a key blessing of the new covenant is "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:33). I would go with William Romaine when he says:

"That thy walk with God in the way of obedience is not to fulfil the law, as a covenant of works. Thou art not required to do this. Thou canst not do it. Immanuel, thy divine surety, took it upon Himself. Because it was impossible for thee, a fallen creature, to keep the law, so as to be justified by it, He therefore came in person to fulfil it. He honoured its precepts by His infinite obedience. He magnified its penalties by His inestimable sacrifice. And this is thy justifying righteousness. Through faith in the life and death of the God-man thou art not only freed from guilt and condemnation, from curse and hell, but art also entitled to life and glory. The law is now on thy side, and is become thy friend. It acquits thee. It justifies thee. It will give thee the reward promised to obedience. The law in the hand of thy Saviour has nothing but blessings to bestow upon thee. Thou art to receive it at His mouth and to obey Him: but not from any legal hopes of heaven, or from any slavish fears of hell: for then thou wouldst come under the covenant of works again. Whereas thou art not under the law, but under grace, mind thy privilege and pray for grace to live up to it. Thou art not under the law, bound to keep it perfectly in thine own person, or in case of failing, condemned by it, and under its fearful curse. Thou art under grace, a state of grace through faith in the obedience and sufferings of thy blessed surety, and under the power of grace constrained and motivated by the love of Christ." (The Walk of Faith)​

 

[Thomas2007]

If Paul says 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. how can this Law be my rule of life when I am not under it and led by the Spirit? WHat does it mean to be not under it other than to not be led by it? Is Paul saying we are led by both the Spirit and Law?

There is no contradiction in God, hence the blessing which the law offers is excluded by our depravity, so that only the curse remains. But unto the elect, whom the penalty of the law is fulfilled in Christ, only the blessing remains. Yet, we are left in these mortal bodies which contradict us and Paul says in Romans 7:22-25

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Jacob:

Again I need something more than:With regard to Daily living (Psalm 1, Proverbs 1-4), I mean the moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, and the general equity of its judicial applications.


How does this become binding and the rule of life. They are vague words that can be shaped into many different understandings. Does it mean that without the ML, one would act as a heathen continuously? The Law was given to Israel, and yet they forsoke God continuously, so what is it supposed to do for the NC believers daily walk? I struggle with this question..

The antithesis between law and gospel is the sin in our flesh, but unto the new creature in Christ there is no contradiction. Calvin saw the law as it presented an impossible challenge to the non-elect; as Jesus Christ alone is able to keep the law, but the "wickedness and condemnation of us all are sealed by the testimony of the law. Yet this is not done to cause us to fall down in despair, or completely discouraged, to rush headlong over the brink - provided we duly profit by the testimony of the law. (Institutes 2.7.8) Hence, unto the new man, the accusatory character of the law should not depress but illumine the mind unto the true Holiness and character of God and be the infallible weapon of God's word in our perpetual fight against the world, the flesh and the devil.

 

[Amazing Grace]

If Paul says 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. how can this Law be my rule of life when I am not under it and led by the Spirit? WHat does it mean to be not under it other than to not be led by it? Is Paul saying we are led by both the Spirit and Law?

There is no contradiction in God, hence the blessing which the law offers is excluded by our depravity, so that only the curse remains. But unto the elect, whom the penalty of the law is fulfilled in Christ, only the blessing remains. Yet, we are left in these mortal bodies which contradict us and Paul says in Romans 7:22-25

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Jacob:

Again I need something more than:With regard to Daily living (Psalm 1, Proverbs 1-4), I mean the moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, and the general equity of its judicial applications.


How does this become binding and the rule of life. They are vague words that can be shaped into many different understandings. Does it mean that without the ML, one would act as a heathen continuously? The Law was given to Israel, and yet they forsoke God continuously, so what is it supposed to do for the NC believers daily walk? I struggle with this question..

The antithesis between law and gospel is the sin in our flesh, but unto the new creature in Christ there is no contradiction. Calvin saw the law as it presented an impossible challenge to the non-elect; as Jesus Christ alone is able to keep the law, but the "wickedness and condemnation of us all are sealed by the testimony of the law. Yet this is not done to cause us to fall down in despair, or completely discouraged, to rush headlong over the brink - provided we duly profit by the testimony of the law. (Institutes 2.7.8) Hence, unto the new man, the accusatory character of the law should not depress but illumine the mind unto the true Holiness and character of God and be the infallible weapon of God's word in our perpetual fight against the world, the flesh and the devil.

Thomas I am aware of all this writing regarding flesh, Law, Christ fulfilling it etc etc etc. I know it is 'said' we are not under the curse.

All I am asking is what does it mean to be the rule of life and how does it do that? All the rhetoric from calvin et al does not specifically answer my question. DO I need Law to remind me of when I sin? Is that was it meant by rule of life?

Let me try this way of putting it then: Tell me what the apostle means in the first six verses of Romans 7, where he says that the believer is dead to the law, and free from the law; and let me know how that law can be his rule, when he is as dead to it, and as free from it, as a woman is from her husband when she has buried him. Is the woman still bound in ANY way to the dead husband as her rule of life? I believe she is not

Thank you

 

[MrMerlin777]

I have nothing to add but to say what a thought provoking thread.

So far I've enjoyed every line of it. Absolutely stimulating.

 

[crhoades]

Two lines of thought to pursue...

the moral law is a representation of God's righteous character. When we want to see what it means to be godly, we can look at the law of perfect freedom.

Also, the law is summarized as loving God and your neighbor. If love is a summary of the law, and law is no longer applicable what happens to the summary? Would it be fair to say that if the law is summarized by love then to say that one is antinomian they are also antilovian?

Remember, we as Reformed folk, have to talk about the three uses of the law.

Talk amongst yerselves...

 

[aleksanderpolo]

From Heidelberg Catechism:

Question 114. But can those who are converted to God perfectly keep these commandments?

Answer: No: but even the holiest men, while in this life, have only a small beginning of this obedience; (a) yet so, that with a sincere resolution they begin to live, not only according to some, but all the commandments of God. (b)


From Belgic Confession:

Article 25: The Fulfillment of the Law

* We believe that the ceremonies and symbols of the law have ended with the coming of Christ, and that all foreshadowings have come to an end, so that the use of them ought to be abolished among Christians. Yet the truth and substance of these things remain for us in Jesus Christ, in whom they have been fulfilled.

Nevertheless, we continue to use the witnesses drawn from the law and prophets to confirm us in the gospel and to regulate our lives with full integrity for the glory of God, according to his will.

I thought this is a confessional board, am I mistaken?

 

[JM]

Tell me what the apostle means in the first six verses of Romans 7, where he says that the believer is dead to the law, and free from the law; and let me know how that law can be his rule, when he is as dead to it, and as free from it, as a woman is from her husband when she has buried him. Is the woman still bound in ANY way to the dead husband as her rule of life? I believe she is not

Thank you

On Romans 7:

Notice that there is only one woman, while there are two husbands. The woman is in a very difficult position, for she can only be wife of one of the two, and unfortunately she is married to the less desirable one. The man to whom she is married is a good man; but the trouble lies here, that the husband and wife are totally unsuited to one another. He is a most particular man, accurate to a degree; she on the other hand is decidedly easy-going. With him all is definite and precise; with her all is casual and haphazard. He wants everything to he just so, while she takes things as they come. How could there be happiness in such a home?

And then that husband is so exacting! He is always making demands upon her. And yet one cannot find fault with him, for as a husband he has a right to expect something of his wife; and all his demands are perfectly legitimate. There is nothing wrong with the man and nothing wrong with his demands; the trouble is that he has the wrong kind of wife to carry them out. The poor woman is in great distress. She is fully aware that she often makes mistakes, but living with such a husband it seems as though everything she says and does is wrong! What hope is there for her? If only she were married to that other Man all would be well. He is no less exacting than her husband, but He also helps much. She would fain marry Him, but her husband is still alive. What can she do? She is ‘bound by law to the husband’ and unless he dies she cannot legitimately marry that other Man.

The first husband is the Law; the second husband is Christ; and you are the woman. The law requires much, but offers no help in the carrying out of its requirements. The Lord Jesus requires just as much, yea more (Matt. 5:21-48), but what He requires from us He Himself carries out in us. The law makes demands and leaves us helpless to fulfill them; Christ makes demands, but He Himself fulfills in us the very demands He makes. Little wonder that the woman desires to be freed from the first husband that she may marry that other Man! But her only hope of release is through the death of her first husband, and he holds on to life most tenaciously. Indeed there is not the least prospect of his passing away (Matt. 5:18). The Law is going to continue for all eternity. If the Law will never pass away, then how can I ever be united to Christ? How can I marry a second husband if my first husband resolutely refuses to die? There is one way out. If he will not die, I can die, and if I die the marriage relationship is dissolved. Verses 1 to 3 show that the husband should die, but in verse 4 we see that in fact it is the woman who dies! The Law does not pass away, but I pass away, and by death I am freed from the Law. How do I die? When Christ was crucified, I was crucified with Him. On the hill of Calvary it was forever done (Watchman Nee, The Normal Christian Life, pp.107-109).

 

[RamistThomist]

It is helpful to note that the Confession says we are freed from the curse of the moral law. Perhaps there is some confusion on the term "no longer binding." Is the commandment against adultery binding on the Christian today?

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

1689 London Baptist Confession, Chap. 19 (underlines mine)

5 The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither does Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

6 Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigor thereof. The promises of it likewise show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.

7. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

 

[KMK]

From Heidelberg Catechism:

Question 114. But can those who are converted to God perfectly keep these commandments?

Answer: No: but even the holiest men, while in this life, have only a small beginning of this obedience; (a) yet so, that with a sincere resolution they begin to live, not only according to some, but all the commandments of God. (b)


From Belgic Confession:

Article 25: The Fulfillment of the Law

* We believe that the ceremonies and symbols of the law have ended with the coming of Christ, and that all foreshadowings have come to an end, so that the use of them ought to be abolished among Christians. Yet the truth and substance of these things remain for us in Jesus Christ, in whom they have been fulfilled.

Nevertheless, we continue to use the witnesses drawn from the law and prophets to confirm us in the gospel and to regulate our lives with full integrity for the glory of God, according to his will.

I thought this is a confessional board, am I mistaken?

This was my thought as well.

It seems to me that many see grace and the law as mutually exclusive. The divines, in their wisdom, however, see a sublime relationship between the two.

WCF 19:7. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

As believers are more and more enabled to follow the Spirit, they are actually subdued to freely and cheerfully do what the moral law requires.