JM
Puritan Board Doctor
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James White is Postmil
- Thread starter JM
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Is that some kind of gamer lingo or what?
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Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
Is that some kind of gamer lingo or what?
Well there has got to be something said for consistency.
ZackF
Puritan Board Doctor
Must have lost a coin toss. I’m sure White would have chosen cycling.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
In JM's second video clip of White (post #9), James does confirm this statement of Jason: "This may sound crazy but maybe, just maybe Dr. White was encouraged to reexamine his eschatology from his fellow Elders at Apologia and was convinced from scripture that Postmil is the correct view." (JM post #56).
When you're around folks continually promoting a view, it can turn one. Also, an intensely satanic culture—and age generally—can make one strongly desire the godliness of the Law enforced by cultural and political institutions—especially, as James said, if one has grandchildren one loves, with an eye to their future.
I’ve heard it said that where we—the church of today—are in the Biblical timeline is between the Book of Acts and Revelation. But that’s not entirely accurate, as the Revelation of John, or the Apocalypse as it’s also called, contains in it events and spiritual dynamics that are going on all through the New Testament church age. That means that even now we’re in the Book of Revelation, time-wise—and, truth be told—very likely near the end of it, that is, near the end of the age before the Lord’s return.
Of all the various schemas used to interpret Revelation, only one—the Amillennial—includes all the churches from John’s day to the end of the age, bypassing none. This means that the book and its vital—urgent—counsel was as much for the church in Smyrna of Asia Minor in 100 A.D. as it was for the churches of the Waldenses in the mountains of Europe in 1,200 A.D., and for the churches in our contemporary world of 2021 [updated] A.D. The Amillennial—also called the present “millennial” reign of Jesus Christ from heaven, and His binding of Satan, as well as the loosing of him at the very end of the age—is the only view that does not exclude large segments of the age-long church from the blessings of wisdom, courage, and warning promised the readers and keepers of the prophecies of Revelation. Only in the context of the entire NT church age do the details of the visions fit into perfect place.
Why getting it right – or wrong – matters: Rightly understanding the times, and one’s labors fruitful, or: Unprepared for what’s coming, wrong focus in one’s labors, and not bearing the best fruit
If one holds to the premil view, we’ll expect to be raptured out before the serious tribulation starts (though there are views within that fold, such as mid-trib, and pre-wrath, both of which go through some tribulation), and how one prepares one’s mind – and life – would be different than if one were postmil, expecting things to generally get better and better and the Christians in it for the very long haul, some ten thousands of years plus, possibly. For the postmil, one would see the secular culture as a field to be sown with the Word of God and spiritual labor with the expectation of that culture becoming “Christianized” and bearing at least outward observance of God’s Law. One would be devoting one’s life and energy to infusing the Mosaic Law into the political-legal arena, with the expectation of its becoming the law of the land.
For the amil, or one holding that the entire present age is the millennial period, we see that we are in a worsening world, with the main threats either intense worldly seduction from an increasingly sensual and antichristian culture, and/or persecution from hostile ruling authorities – with no hope of these things getting better, not in the long run, though there could be short-term improvements. We fight for justice for the downtrodden and speak for those with no voice, even though we go against the grain when we do it in Christ’s name. The focus for the amil is that we “may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life...” (Philippians 2:15, 16)
To the amil the Kingdom of God to be secured and sustained is the church, not the culture or the political arena, though one may speak to the culture, whether by Christian witness, works of art and literature, or works of mercy, calling those who love the truth out of the power of darkness and into the Kingdom of God’s dear Son. Ditto with the political-legal arena – one may seek to influence those therein to uphold God’s agenda of righteousness and compassion, and to become disciples of Christ, but the amil does not desire to build the Kingdom of God in and of the worldly institutions of culture, law and politics.
To the amil the church is the manifestation of God’s Kingdom and rule in this world, and the House in which He lives. I suppose one’s eschatological view will seriously affect one’s attitude to the culture, politics, and the areas of one’s heartfelt labors. It will also affect one’s expectations of suffering-to-come, and preparing one’s mind and heart in that regard. One’s labors will be twofold primarily: a) seeking to better the church, strengthening, supporting, and nurturing it as the very body of Christ, and b) seeking to call God’s elect yet unregenerated out of the dark cultures of the world and into His light, which shines brightest in His church. We do not know who these uncalled elect are so we preach to all and as many as we can, according to our gifts and our opportunities.
When you're around folks continually promoting a view, it can turn one. Also, an intensely satanic culture—and age generally—can make one strongly desire the godliness of the Law enforced by cultural and political institutions—especially, as James said, if one has grandchildren one loves, with an eye to their future.
I’ve heard it said that where we—the church of today—are in the Biblical timeline is between the Book of Acts and Revelation. But that’s not entirely accurate, as the Revelation of John, or the Apocalypse as it’s also called, contains in it events and spiritual dynamics that are going on all through the New Testament church age. That means that even now we’re in the Book of Revelation, time-wise—and, truth be told—very likely near the end of it, that is, near the end of the age before the Lord’s return.
Of all the various schemas used to interpret Revelation, only one—the Amillennial—includes all the churches from John’s day to the end of the age, bypassing none. This means that the book and its vital—urgent—counsel was as much for the church in Smyrna of Asia Minor in 100 A.D. as it was for the churches of the Waldenses in the mountains of Europe in 1,200 A.D., and for the churches in our contemporary world of 2021 [updated] A.D. The Amillennial—also called the present “millennial” reign of Jesus Christ from heaven, and His binding of Satan, as well as the loosing of him at the very end of the age—is the only view that does not exclude large segments of the age-long church from the blessings of wisdom, courage, and warning promised the readers and keepers of the prophecies of Revelation. Only in the context of the entire NT church age do the details of the visions fit into perfect place.
Why getting it right – or wrong – matters: Rightly understanding the times, and one’s labors fruitful, or: Unprepared for what’s coming, wrong focus in one’s labors, and not bearing the best fruit
If one holds to the premil view, we’ll expect to be raptured out before the serious tribulation starts (though there are views within that fold, such as mid-trib, and pre-wrath, both of which go through some tribulation), and how one prepares one’s mind – and life – would be different than if one were postmil, expecting things to generally get better and better and the Christians in it for the very long haul, some ten thousands of years plus, possibly. For the postmil, one would see the secular culture as a field to be sown with the Word of God and spiritual labor with the expectation of that culture becoming “Christianized” and bearing at least outward observance of God’s Law. One would be devoting one’s life and energy to infusing the Mosaic Law into the political-legal arena, with the expectation of its becoming the law of the land.
For the amil, or one holding that the entire present age is the millennial period, we see that we are in a worsening world, with the main threats either intense worldly seduction from an increasingly sensual and antichristian culture, and/or persecution from hostile ruling authorities – with no hope of these things getting better, not in the long run, though there could be short-term improvements. We fight for justice for the downtrodden and speak for those with no voice, even though we go against the grain when we do it in Christ’s name. The focus for the amil is that we “may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life...” (Philippians 2:15, 16)
To the amil the Kingdom of God to be secured and sustained is the church, not the culture or the political arena, though one may speak to the culture, whether by Christian witness, works of art and literature, or works of mercy, calling those who love the truth out of the power of darkness and into the Kingdom of God’s dear Son. Ditto with the political-legal arena – one may seek to influence those therein to uphold God’s agenda of righteousness and compassion, and to become disciples of Christ, but the amil does not desire to build the Kingdom of God in and of the worldly institutions of culture, law and politics.
To the amil the church is the manifestation of God’s Kingdom and rule in this world, and the House in which He lives. I suppose one’s eschatological view will seriously affect one’s attitude to the culture, politics, and the areas of one’s heartfelt labors. It will also affect one’s expectations of suffering-to-come, and preparing one’s mind and heart in that regard. One’s labors will be twofold primarily: a) seeking to better the church, strengthening, supporting, and nurturing it as the very body of Christ, and b) seeking to call God’s elect yet unregenerated out of the dark cultures of the world and into His light, which shines brightest in His church. We do not know who these uncalled elect are so we preach to all and as many as we can, according to our gifts and our opportunities.
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
Sure enough. Kurschner did respond. If White puts his thoughts in a developed article (and he may have by now), I would like to interact with it.
www.alankurschner.com
(Kurschner used to be associated with White and is generally appreciative of him)
My Initial Response to James White's Postmillennialism | Bible Prophecy Answers with Alan Kurschner
I am glad to see Dr. James White investigating eschatology. While I think he is wrong on postmillennialism and preterism, at least, contrary to popular
www.alankurschner.com
(Kurschner used to be associated with White and is generally appreciative of him)
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
From the Sandlin interview
docsandlin.com
. The phrase in Psalm 110:2, “rule in the midst of Your enemies” struck me. This is a command, an imperative, and it is not about ruling in heaven while Christ’s enemies hold full sway upon earth.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. Christ is ascended in heaven. He is literally--incarnately--at the right hand of God. That proposition is *the* reason we aren't Lutherans. Where else would he rule? If he says physically on earth, he has adopted premillennialism.
The rest of the interview is basically "we will see Gospel progress in history." The problem is that every one aside from Tim Lahaye has affirmed that in some sense. As he concedes that you can't draw a straight line, either positively or negatively, then the phrase "the gospel will progress in history" can't be taken in a univocal sense.
James White, Postmillennialist
Dr. James White is a Reformed Baptist theologian and apologist and founder and director of Alpha Omega Ministries who, formerly premillennial and amillennial, recently shifted his eschatology to po…
docsandlin.com
. The phrase in Psalm 110:2, “rule in the midst of Your enemies” struck me. This is a command, an imperative, and it is not about ruling in heaven while Christ’s enemies hold full sway upon earth.
Actually, that's exactly what it is. Christ is ascended in heaven. He is literally--incarnately--at the right hand of God. That proposition is *the* reason we aren't Lutherans. Where else would he rule? If he says physically on earth, he has adopted premillennialism.
The rest of the interview is basically "we will see Gospel progress in history." The problem is that every one aside from Tim Lahaye has affirmed that in some sense. As he concedes that you can't draw a straight line, either positively or negatively, then the phrase "the gospel will progress in history" can't be taken in a univocal sense.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks for posting this, Jacob! I think I'll be studying James' view more closely and interact with it.
JM
Puritan Board Doctor
Looking forward to it.
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
Many of us were recently made aware that Christian apologist James White came out as Post-Millennial (switching from a loosely held Amillennialism) in his sermon, My Journey to Hope for the Future
, preached at Apologia Church in Mesa, AZ, where he is an elder/pastor.
At first I thought, “Good, a worthy opponent to help us amil folks hone and fine-tune our own presentations”, but I was disappointed – it wasn’t a great presentation he made. Still, I’d like to briefly answer it.
Part of James’ journey to hope pertained to his children and grandchildren (who evidently were there in the service, as he addressed one of his grands during the sermon), for whom he feels great and loving concern in light of the culture-of-death juggernaut morphing into a massive and monstrous culture-permeating adversary, not only to the Christian faith but even to secular traditional politics and morality, so that our basic cultural and political structures are increasingly being co-opted by a radical agenda bent on tyrannically overwhelming and replacing the more “normal” way of life we in America have been living for some decades. One can certainly feel sympathy for James’ concern!
James’ strategy for dealing with such a satanically-inspired power-laden agenda is to place his hopes in Christ enabling him and his fellow postmillers to endure this dark societal movement – even if it takes multiple centuries! – hoping that the Lord will (as James exposits certain Scripture passages), through His ruling in the midst of His enemies, eventually win over – or at the least “Christianize” – the cultures affected by these through the power of the Gospel, bettering the world, and making it fit for the Lord to return.
James uses the Scripture passages of Psalm 2, Psalm 110, Isaiah 42:1-4, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-27 to the end of showing that the meaning of “rule thou in the midst of thine enemies” (Psa 110:2), and “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), is that reigning and ruling is a process over a period of time in which the Gospel will turn the tide for the better – making the world increasingly righteous – and not a sudden climactic event of final victory, where He will “zap” the bad guys (James’ word) in some quick Armageddon finale, thus rescuing His nigh-decimated and suffering church — which he says is an amil error, but will instead take place over possibly many centuries.
There is truth in saying that the Lord’s rule in the midst of His enemies will effect hearts and cultures over “a long period of time”, as the amil view is that during the figurative millennial period of the NT church age, the preaching of the Gospel will bind Satan from deceiving nations as such (as nations), though he is still given to deceive non-elect individuals, while the Gospel draws all Christ’s elect into His fold, the church, throughout the church age, until the “little season” of Revelation 20:3 when Satan is loosed, the Gospel silenced, and nations once again are plunged into full darkness to the end of his marshaling them so as to kill all Christ’s people world-wide – the Lord intervening in the midst of the satanic onslaught to wreak vengeance on the persecutors and idolators, and resurrecting His beloved bride.
Thus, the “rule” of Christ “in the midst of His enemies” – where He exercises His sovereign will and might to gather His sheep to Himself – does not extend over the postmil’s many millennia – but simply over the shorter period of the church age, which in the main is an evil age, and not one where men and cultures are “Christianized” and the world gets better and better:
Christ Jesus rules over the entire world through the entire church age from the throne of David upon which He sits (Luke 1:32; Acts 2:30ff.) in the heavens as He exercises that “All power and authority which is given to Me in heaven and in earth”, and He opens the seven seals of the planned decrees for the governance of the NT church age.
Scripture does not posit any possibility of a bettering world – not in the long run – but rather a worsening one! The hope we amils hold out for the future of our loved ones is in preparing them – little ones included! – to endure the atrocities the wicked shall mete upon them at Satan’s behest. As He said, “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction” (Isa 48:10).
We do not indulge in vain hopes of the betterment of the wicked and Satan’s reprobate horde, but in the mercy given us from above, as the hymn sings, “Praise to the Lord, who, when darkness and sin are abounding, who, when the godless do triumph, all virtue confounding, sheddeth his light, chaseth the horrors of night, saints with his mercy surrounding.” Our hope is in our Lord’s presence, power, and love to sustain us in holiness and faith until the end.
Christ reigns in the midst of His enemies now. And will continue to until He returns.
In Psalm 2:8-9, the Messiah-King tells of God the Father saying to Him, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
Which shall be fulfilled at the eschaton, as Revelation 19:15 shows the returning Christ destroying His enemies utterly at the finale of Armageddon:
At that point, “the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rev 6:17). Only the blood-bought lovers of God and His Christ. Away with these dreams of a golden age before the genuine, biblical Day of Vengeance!
At first I thought, “Good, a worthy opponent to help us amil folks hone and fine-tune our own presentations”, but I was disappointed – it wasn’t a great presentation he made. Still, I’d like to briefly answer it.
Part of James’ journey to hope pertained to his children and grandchildren (who evidently were there in the service, as he addressed one of his grands during the sermon), for whom he feels great and loving concern in light of the culture-of-death juggernaut morphing into a massive and monstrous culture-permeating adversary, not only to the Christian faith but even to secular traditional politics and morality, so that our basic cultural and political structures are increasingly being co-opted by a radical agenda bent on tyrannically overwhelming and replacing the more “normal” way of life we in America have been living for some decades. One can certainly feel sympathy for James’ concern!
James’ strategy for dealing with such a satanically-inspired power-laden agenda is to place his hopes in Christ enabling him and his fellow postmillers to endure this dark societal movement – even if it takes multiple centuries! – hoping that the Lord will (as James exposits certain Scripture passages), through His ruling in the midst of His enemies, eventually win over – or at the least “Christianize” – the cultures affected by these through the power of the Gospel, bettering the world, and making it fit for the Lord to return.
James uses the Scripture passages of Psalm 2, Psalm 110, Isaiah 42:1-4, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-27 to the end of showing that the meaning of “rule thou in the midst of thine enemies” (Psa 110:2), and “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), is that reigning and ruling is a process over a period of time in which the Gospel will turn the tide for the better – making the world increasingly righteous – and not a sudden climactic event of final victory, where He will “zap” the bad guys (James’ word) in some quick Armageddon finale, thus rescuing His nigh-decimated and suffering church — which he says is an amil error, but will instead take place over possibly many centuries.
There is truth in saying that the Lord’s rule in the midst of His enemies will effect hearts and cultures over “a long period of time”, as the amil view is that during the figurative millennial period of the NT church age, the preaching of the Gospel will bind Satan from deceiving nations as such (as nations), though he is still given to deceive non-elect individuals, while the Gospel draws all Christ’s elect into His fold, the church, throughout the church age, until the “little season” of Revelation 20:3 when Satan is loosed, the Gospel silenced, and nations once again are plunged into full darkness to the end of his marshaling them so as to kill all Christ’s people world-wide – the Lord intervening in the midst of the satanic onslaught to wreak vengeance on the persecutors and idolators, and resurrecting His beloved bride.
Thus, the “rule” of Christ “in the midst of His enemies” – where He exercises His sovereign will and might to gather His sheep to Himself – does not extend over the postmil’s many millennia – but simply over the shorter period of the church age, which in the main is an evil age, and not one where men and cultures are “Christianized” and the world gets better and better:
Gal 1:4 our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world [or age], according to the will of God and our Father
1 John 5:19 we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness [or the wicked one]
Eph 2:2 in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
John 15:18-20 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you
John 17:14-16 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world
2 Tim 3:12, 13 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
1 John 5:19 we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness [or the wicked one]
Eph 2:2 in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
John 15:18-20 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you
John 17:14-16 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world
2 Tim 3:12, 13 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Christ Jesus rules over the entire world through the entire church age from the throne of David upon which He sits (Luke 1:32; Acts 2:30ff.) in the heavens as He exercises that “All power and authority which is given to Me in heaven and in earth”, and He opens the seven seals of the planned decrees for the governance of the NT church age.
Scripture does not posit any possibility of a bettering world – not in the long run – but rather a worsening one! The hope we amils hold out for the future of our loved ones is in preparing them – little ones included! – to endure the atrocities the wicked shall mete upon them at Satan’s behest. As He said, “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction” (Isa 48:10).
We do not indulge in vain hopes of the betterment of the wicked and Satan’s reprobate horde, but in the mercy given us from above, as the hymn sings, “Praise to the Lord, who, when darkness and sin are abounding, who, when the godless do triumph, all virtue confounding, sheddeth his light, chaseth the horrors of night, saints with his mercy surrounding.” Our hope is in our Lord’s presence, power, and love to sustain us in holiness and faith until the end.
WCF 5.1: God the great Creator of all things doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by His most wise and holy providence, according to His infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of His own will, to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.
Christ reigns in the midst of His enemies now. And will continue to until He returns.
In Psalm 2:8-9, the Messiah-King tells of God the Father saying to Him, “Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
Which shall be fulfilled at the eschaton, as Revelation 19:15 shows the returning Christ destroying His enemies utterly at the finale of Armageddon:
“And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”
At that point, “the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rev 6:17). Only the blood-bought lovers of God and His Christ. Away with these dreams of a golden age before the genuine, biblical Day of Vengeance!
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Doctor
His follow up on his sermon on the DL is more interesting. Nothing but emotional arguments or reasons in order to switch positions.
JM
Puritan Board Doctor
I think Dr. White has been heading this way for a long time and if there was anything that really helped him make the move I would guess it was Joe Boot's work "The Mission of God." I have it but haven't read it yet.
Andrew35
Puritan Board Junior
He had Boot on the other day, right? (That sentence makes me laugh for some reason.) The guy was going off on 2 Kingdoms.
Now I wouldn't consider myself a radical 2Ker, but I tilt that way myself a bit, having partially digested but ultimately rejected neo-Kuyperian transformationalism. I didn't feel like the guy was being fair, and was way more worked up about it than the matter warranted -- though I have to give another listen....
Now I wouldn't consider myself a radical 2Ker, but I tilt that way myself a bit, having partially digested but ultimately rejected neo-Kuyperian transformationalism. I didn't feel like the guy was being fair, and was way more worked up about it than the matter warranted -- though I have to give another listen....
JM
Puritan Board Doctor
What's this all aboot anyways? jk It's a Scots Canadian thing.
I guess at the end of the day we are all influenced by somebody. I'm sure boot is too...ha
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