John 14 v12 - support for charismatics?

[RamistThomist]

As to working miracles: Paul’s actual word is “powers,” which has a very different nuance. It’s also why the Eastern fathers called miracle workers “thaumaturge,” which is much closer in concept to the original. This is a superior way of thinking since it cuts off at the knees the modern secular worry: "Can we believe in miracles because Mr Hume said we couldn't?"

 

[Dachaser]

If you had read what I wrote, you would have realized that I refuted what you were saying about prophecy.

I deny that the gifts sole purpose was to confirm something. That it did so is true, but you keep assuming that's the whole point. It's not.

Let's take your line of reasoning a step further: why does God need me to evangelize since he has already predestined everything?

If you read 1 Corinthians you will realize that Gifts are not given to authenticate a message (at least not primarily). Gifts are other-directed. They are for service.

The sign that Apostles were gifted to do were for confirmation though, and those ceased, but the rensing gifts still continued forward!

 

[Dachaser]

As to working miracles: Paul’s actual word is “powers,” which has a very different nuance. It’s also why the Eastern fathers called miracle workers “thaumaturge,” which is much closer in concept to the original. This is a superior way of thinking since it cuts off at the knees the modern secular worry: "Can we believe in miracles because Mr Hume said we couldn't?"

They were gifted to do miracles, while we are not, but God can still preform them as He sees fit to do them per His will.

 

[Dachaser]

Back to the original post: the verse describes the worker as "he who believes in me," which doesn't limit it to the apostles. Now, I am not saying this necessarily means magical gifts. It might just mean that granny is really good at organizing pot luck fellowships. Admittedly, that's not in the text.

The context refers to the Apostles if that time and setting.

 

[RamistThomist]

The context refers to the Apostles if that time and setting.

No it doesn't. It says "he who believes," which is open ended.

 

[RamistThomist]

They were gifted to do miracles, while wearenot, but God can still them as He sees fit to do them per His will.

You realize that not once in this discussion have you offered an argument for that saying? You just keep repeating it.

 

[RamistThomist]

The sign that Apostles were gifted to do were for confirmation though, and those ceased, but the rensing gifts still continued forward!

I have no idea what this means

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Folks slow down, and David, clean up your posts so folks can understand what you are saying.

 

[Dachaser]

No it doesn't. It says "he who believes," which is open ended.

Jesus was addressing His Apostles, as the ending o if Mark Gospel seems to be referring to what the Apostles themselves did during the time of Acts, and not to be seen as continuing for all of Church history going forward.

 

[Dachaser]

You realize that not once in this discussion have you offered an argument for that saying? You just keep repeating it.

Writer of Hebrews affirms that the Apostles confirmed to them by signs and wonders, but did not include himself able to do them, do evidently no longer required to be done moving forward. Hebrews2:4

 

[Dachaser]

I have no idea what this means

God can still do miracles and so called signs today as He chooses, but none of us today are gifted to do such as Apostles were by God.

 

[RamistThomist]

God can still do miracles and so called signs today as He chooses, but none of us today are gifted to do such as Apostles were by God.

This is an assertion. You have yet to deal with the lexical arguments.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Did those with the gift of prophecy speak knowledge that God revealed to their minds!

Every reason to believe so.

 

[RamistThomist]

Writer of Hebrews affirms that the Apostles confirmed to them by signs and wonders, but did not include himself able to do them, do evidently no longer required to be done moving forward. Hebrews2:4

The problem is that numerous non-apostles "worked powers" (literal Greek).

The gifts (which the the writer never calls the miracles) are not for authentication, but edification. That's completely irrelevant to the author of Hebrews' claim.

 

[RamistThomist]

Jesus was addressing His Apostles, as the ending o if Mark Gospel seems to be referring to what the Apostles themselves did during the time of Acts, and not to be seen as continuing for all of Church history going forward.

Which makes Paul's inclusion of the "working of powers" in the gifts of the Spirit passages contradictory to your above statement.

 

[RamistThomist]

I'm out.

 

[Scott Bushey]

 

[Dachaser]

This is an assertion. You have yet to deal with the lexical arguments.

This is an assertion. You have yet to deal with the lexical arguments.

You still see Apostles among us today?

 

[Dachaser]

The problem is that numerous non-apostles "worked powers" (literal Greek).

The gifts (which the the writer never calls the miracles) are not for authentication, but edification. That's completely irrelevant to the author of Hebrews' claim.

The ones gifted to be the Apostles confirmed, while the others used them to edify.

 

[Dachaser]

Hebrews claims those gifts were used to confirm, as did Mark!

 

[Dachaser]

Which makes Paul's inclusion of the "working of powers" in the gifts of the Spirit passages contradictory to your above statement.

All spiritual gifts were in use at that time, but not all are today in the Body of Christ.