John 3:13?
- Thread starter earl40
- Start date
- Status
What does he mean by quoting that verse? Does he think it says that at the time of Christ's 1st coming, no one had (yet) been received into heaven?
Since that's not the point of Jesus' statement, it seems completely irrelevant to the discussion to drop it in the way he has. Jesus' words aren't an absolute statement that no man has been brought to heaven.
Jesus' statement sounds like an allusion to Dt.30:12. Paul makes reference to the same text in Rom.10:6. In both places, the sufficiency of the Word is in view, the difference being that Paul's exposition focuses on the Word preached, while Jesus is making a self-referential comment.
Men cannot attain to God (ascend to heaven) on their own, but God has made the way to himself through his Mediator, who has come down. And he comes, that men might have a home in heaven.
Some readers of Scripture can't see how the virtue of Christ's sacrifice can be applied to OT figures prior to the historical event of Christ's cross. Apparently, in this view: faith and hope in Christ-to-come isn't existentially saving for such believers; rather, the foreordination of Christ to this work is insufficient for the application of its benefits--perhaps there's still a big "uncertainty" (for God?) until the sacrifice is made in history.
I would guess there might be problems among those you're conversing with, over the matter of meticulous predestination as well. Even if they believe that God "gets his will done" at times by sheer force, it sounds like they could be wedded to a realist notion: that until something has come to be historically, it has no existential weight or substance. In that case, since heaven demands the sacrifice of Christ, until it happens historically, the gates are barred historically. (Also implies that men's souls are entirely historically and otherwise bound by the laws of this life.)
Since that's not the point of Jesus' statement, it seems completely irrelevant to the discussion to drop it in the way he has. Jesus' words aren't an absolute statement that no man has been brought to heaven.
Jesus' statement sounds like an allusion to Dt.30:12. Paul makes reference to the same text in Rom.10:6. In both places, the sufficiency of the Word is in view, the difference being that Paul's exposition focuses on the Word preached, while Jesus is making a self-referential comment.
Men cannot attain to God (ascend to heaven) on their own, but God has made the way to himself through his Mediator, who has come down. And he comes, that men might have a home in heaven.
Some readers of Scripture can't see how the virtue of Christ's sacrifice can be applied to OT figures prior to the historical event of Christ's cross. Apparently, in this view: faith and hope in Christ-to-come isn't existentially saving for such believers; rather, the foreordination of Christ to this work is insufficient for the application of its benefits--perhaps there's still a big "uncertainty" (for God?) until the sacrifice is made in history.
I would guess there might be problems among those you're conversing with, over the matter of meticulous predestination as well. Even if they believe that God "gets his will done" at times by sheer force, it sounds like they could be wedded to a realist notion: that until something has come to be historically, it has no existential weight or substance. In that case, since heaven demands the sacrifice of Christ, until it happens historically, the gates are barred historically. (Also implies that men's souls are entirely historically and otherwise bound by the laws of this life.)
Beau Michel
Puritan Board Freshman
John 3:13 is completely irrelevant to the discussion.The point is we cannot reach out to God for our salvation.God must provide the mediator(which he did in Christ).It is clearly not a reference to OT saints and heaven.Your Eastern Orthodox friend should study the verse in its context,perhaps this would help him to understand the Scripture more clearly.A friend of mine who owns a Christian bookstore was having a discussion with a Roman Catholic.My friend would always take him to the Scriptures and show him the matter under discussion in context.The man would go to his priest and come back with more questions,again my friend would patiently,and lovingly,lead him to the Scriptures and show him the matter in context.After a few years this man began attending a Reformed Baptist Church and has since joined and become zealous for the faith.I pray this may encourage you as you faithfully witness God's truth to your friends.May the Lord richly bless your efforts.
Last edited:
Beau Michel
Puritan Board Freshman
Good point about Elijah brother,not to mention Enoch.
- Status
Similar threads
