King James Only Movement

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Hi Tim,

There's more data concerning them. A closer examination of these men’s minds:


First we will look at some further beliefs and statements of W&H, to get an idea of the hearts and minds of these men. It was important to them that the things they believed and did were kept secret, as they well knew they were at odds with orthodox Christian faith, even in the ailing Anglican Church. In a letter to Westcott, in April of 1861, while they were unofficially[1] working on their revision of the Greek text, Hort wrote,

Also—but this may be cowardice—I have a sort of craving that our text should be cast upon the world before we deal with matters likely to brand us with suspicion. I mean, a text, issued by men already known for what will undoubtedly be treated as dangerous heresy, will have great difficulties in finding its way to regions which it might otherwise hope to reach, and whence it would not easily be banished by subsequent alarms.[2]​

Hort was worldly-wise in this, for it was not until dogged research by scholars in the 20th century unearthed their “dangerous heresy”[3] (though “damnable” be a more apt description) in many areas, that we have learned things about them their contemporaries were unaware of. In a letter to Lightfoot in May of 1860, concerning a proposed commentary they would write with Westcott on the New Testament, Hort said,

Depend on it, whatever either you or I may say in an extended commentary, if only we speak our mind, we shall not be able to avoid giving grave offence to…the miscalled orthodoxy of the day.[4]​

He was surely right in this! He was not a believer, and it was easily apparent in his views! Remember, both he and Lightfoot were involved in spiritualism (along with Westcott and Benson), and although having respect to the COE and its traditions, the group of them were but secular classicists highly trained in classical Greek. They approached the New Testament Scriptures as they did any other Greek classics, with worldly, rationalist presuppositions and critical methods. In other words, their spiritualism was not their only heresy.

In answer to an Oxford undergraduate’s questions (in 1886) about the COE’s Thirty Nine Articles of Faith, with regard to Article IX (concerning the doctrine of Original Sin), Hort answered thus,

The authors of the Article doubtless assumed the strictly historical character of the account of the Fall in Genesis. This assumption is now, in my belief, no longer reasonable.[5]​

One might understand why he would think this way from his view of Darwin’s Origin of Species. In a letter to Westcott (1860) he says,

…Have you read Darwin?…In spite of difficulties, I am inclined to think it unanswerable. In any case it is a treat to read such a book.”[6]​

To his friend John Ellerton, he wrote (in 1860),

But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with…at present my feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable[7] (emphasis his).​

We see Westcott was of the same mind:

No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history—I never could understand how any one reading them with open eyes could think they did…[8]​

The implications of these views are immense. If the Book of Genesis is not true history, then it is either error, or allegory masquerading as history. If Genesis is not true history, Jesus was in error asserting the historicity of Adam and Eve[9], and Paul likewise in error in Romans and 1 Corinthians. If there was no actual fall of an actual Adam and Eve, the atonement of Christ was but a meaningless fiction. The Book of Genesis is foundational for all of God’s revelation concerning salvation. But such supposed errors were in accord with W&H’s view of the errancy of Scripture.

In the event someone says, but this is argumentum ad hominem (criticism of an opponent’s character or motives, rather than of the person’s argument or beliefs), a person’s character and motives will certainly bear on their spiritual views, and hence on their doctrines and related textual matters. As the Lord Jesus said, “…a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17, 18) Their beliefs will of course impact their doctrines.

Footnotes:
They did not receive their official appointment to revise the New Testament – not the Greek text, but make minor revisions in the English text – until 1871.
2 Life of Hort, Vol. I, page 445.
3 2 Peter 2:1 more accurately classifies theirs as “damnable heresies” – there being a distinction between the two types.
4 Life of Hort, Vol. I, page 421.
5 Ibid., Vol. II, page 329.
6 Ibid., Vol. I, page 414.
7 Ibid., page 416.
8 Life of Westcott, Vol. II, page 69.
9 Matthew 19:4-6​

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To be fair, Ted Letis was of the view that Westcott, if not Hort, was a genuine believer, and just caught up in the thinking of the day. He didn’t convince me, though.

Here's yet more of data regarding these men:

It was the scandal of England at the time that the openly Arian, Unitarian pastor Dr. Vance Smith was on the Revision Committee. When he was told by the Church of England he must resign his position Westcott threatened to resign himself if Smith was forced to leave.[1] Vance Smith caused an uproar when he attended a Communion Service and refused to say the Nicene Creed (affirming that Christ is God), although Hort loved it! He says,

…that marvelous Communion…It is, one can hardly doubt, the beginning of a new period in Church history. So far the angry objectors have reason for their astonishment. But it is strange that they should not ask themselves…what is really lost…by the union, for once, of all English Christians around the altar of the Church…[2]​

For the unregenerate Hort the Christ-denying Unitarian was a true “English Christian,” part of the good-ol’-boys’ religious club of academics and intellectuals who wear the frock, and not to be denied either the Lord’s Supper or a place in determining genuine Scripture. When Hort said, “So far the angry objectors have reason for their astonishment,” he wasn’t referring only to the Communion service, but to the results of the Unitarian on the Committee for Revision. There were many small but highly significant changes to the text they would eventually be publishing. Regarding the Revision, he said, “It is quite impossible to judge of the value of what appear to be trifling alterations merely by reading them one after another. Taken together, they have often important bearing which few would think of at first…the difference between a picture say of Raffaelle and a feeble copy of it is made up of a number of trivial differences.”[3]

One of these highly significant changes – “trifling alterations” Hort would say, perhaps – was the unwarranted deletion of the word “God” in the text of 1 Timothy 3:16, where the Scripture in speaking of Jesus talks of “the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh”. The Revisers replaced it with “who”. The Unitarian Dr. Smith later wrote,

The old reading is pronounced untenable by the Revisers, as it has long been known to be by all careful students of the New Testament…It is in truth another example of the facility with which ancient copiers could introduce the word God into their manuscripts,—a reading which was the natural result of the growing tendency in early Christian times…to look upon the humble Teacher as the incarnate Word, and therefore as “God manifested in the flesh”.[4]…It has been frequently said that the changes of translation…are of little importance from a doctrinal point of view…[A]ny such statement [is]…contrary to the facts.[5]

The only instance in the N.T. in which the religious worship or adoration of Christ was apparently implied, has been altered by the Revision: ‘At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow,’ [Philippians 2:10] is now to be read ‘in the name.’ Moreover, no alteration of text or of translation will be found anywhere to make up for this loss; as indeed it is well understood that the N.T. contains neither precept nor example which really sanctions the religious worship of Jesus Christ.[6] [Emphasis added]​

A.G. Hobbs, in his Forward to the reprint of Burgon’s The Revision Revised, wrote,

Here is a real shocker: Dean Stanley, Westcott, Hort, and Bishop Thirwall all refused to serve if Smith were dismissed [in the face of the public outcry at his presence on the Revision Committee]. Let us remember that the Bible teaches that those who uphold and bid a false teacher God speed are equally guilty. ‘For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds’ (2 John 9-11). No wonder that the Deity of Christ is played down in so many passages.[7]​

Does it not make sense what was happening? Unregenerate men had infiltrated the church, and not only the church, but the inner precincts of scholarship and textual reproduction. The enemy had taken the inner stronghold, and put unholy hands on the written Word of God, to alter it.

Footnotes

Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, by his son Arthur Westcott (Macmillan, London, 1903) Reprint by the Bible for Today. Volume I, page 394.
2 Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, by his son, Arthur Fenton Hort (Macmillan, London, 1896) Reprint by the Bible for Today. Volume II, page 139.
3 Ibid.
4 Texts and Margins of the Revised New Testament Affecting Theological Doctrine Briefly Reviewed, by Dr. Vance Smith (London: 1881), pages 39, 47. Cited in Revision Revised, by Burgon, pages 515, 513.
5 Ibid., page 45.
6 Texts and Margins, Smith, page 47. Cited in, For Love of the Bible: The Battle for the King James Version and the Received Text from 1800 to Present, by David W. Cloud (WA: Way of Life Literature, 1997), page 31.
7 The Revision Revised, by John William Burgon (Centennial Edition, Fifth printing, 1991), Forward [no page #]. See also, Life of Westcott, Vol I, page 394.​
 
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Steve, I appreciate the information. I do think I have an open mind on the subject, but the information in the above post, except for your statement that Westcott held an unnamed heresey which sent him to Hell if he didn't repent of it, was that he didn't believe in the literal account of Creation.

I personally don't know how anyone could deny Genesis 1-3 as real history, but there are good people, including here on this board, who disagree with me. I think it dangerous, and that it sets a bad precedent etc...but just as an interest in paranormal activities doesn't equal a bunch of warlocks raising the dead, a belief that the early parts of Genesis are metaphorical doesn't automatically send them to Hell.
 
Steve, I read through that post you linked to twice, and while I know nothing about Westcott and Hort, I don't see how you get from a group of English academics in a less sophisticated age studying clairvoyance, telepathy, spiritual manifestations etc.. to a group of warlocks bent on raising the dead. A recent thread where many of the posters on this forum expressed a belief in Bigfoot, Elves, unicorns, the Sidhe etc..made me feel a bit uncomfortable, but your judgment of W&H based on the information you provide
It should be clear that these men were not Christians, although they were baptized when infants in the Church of England. These were worldly men, unregenerate
seems a bit narrow.

You don't believe in unicorns? Or as the Septuagint translators called it, the monokeros? A unicorn photograph. :p

I think Steve's point comes from Jesus' statement in John 5:45-47

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

If I remember correctly, Westcott held to the higher criticism theory which doubted the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch along with doubting the authenticity of the Mosaic account. That would put in him conflict with Jesus' statement as he did not believe Moses' words.
 
TELLING QUOTATIONS FROM WESTCOTT AND HORT
Concerning the Deity of Christ:​
"He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him." (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

"(John) does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ." (Westcott, Ibid., p. 16).
​
Concerning the Scriptures:​
"I reject the infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

"Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise." (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p. vii).

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible." (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)
​
Concerning Hell:​
"(Hell is) not the place of punishment of the guilty, (it is) the common abode of departed spirits. (Westcott, Historic Faith, pp.77-78).
"We have no sure knowledge of future punishment, and the word eternal has a far higher meaning." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p.149). ​
Concerning Creation:​
"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history. I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did." (Westcott, cited from Which Bible?, p. 191).
"But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with..... My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Hort, cited from Which Bible?, p. 189)
Concerning the Atonement:​
"I think I mentioned to you before Campbell's book on the Atonement, which is invaluable as far as it goes; but unluckily he knows nothing except Protestant theology." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 322)
"The popular doctrine of substitution is an immoral and material counterfeit...nothing can be more unscriptural than the the limiting of Christ's bearing our sins and sufferings to His death; but indeed that is only one aspect of an almost universal heresy." (Hort to Westcott, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 430)
"I confess I have no repugnance to the primitive doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan. I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father." (Hort, The First Epistle of St. Peter 1:1-2:17, p. 77).
Concerning Man:​
"It is of course true that we can only know God through human forms, but then I think the whole Bible echoes the language of Genesis 1:27 and so assures us that human forms are divine forms." (Hort to Westcott, August 14, 1860)
"Protestants (must) unlearn the crazy horror of the idea of Priesthood." (Hort, Life and Letters, Volume II, pp. 49-51)
Concerning Roman Catholicism:​
"I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry (the worship of the Virgin Mary) bears witness." (Westcott, Ibid. )
"I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-Worship and Jesus-Worship have very much in common." (Hort, Life and Letters, Volume II, pp. 49-51)
"The pure Romanish view seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 77)
"I agree with you in thinking it a pity that Maurice verbally repudiates purgatory . . . the idea of purgation, cleansing by fire, seems to me inseparable from what the Bible teaches us of the Divine chastisements." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. II, pp. 336,337)
Concerning the Cumulative Effect of Multiple Changes to the Manuscripts:​
"It is quite impossible to judge the value of what appear to be trifling alterations merely by reading them one after another. Taken together, they have often important bearings which few would think of at first. . . The difference between a picture, say of Raffaelle, and a feeble copy of it is made up of a number of trivial differences. . . We have successfully resisted being warned off dangerous ground, where the needs of revision required that it should not be shirked. . . It is, one can hardly doubt, the beginning of a new period in Church history. So far the angry objectors have reason for their astonishment." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol.I, pp. 138,139)
 
TELLING QUOTATIONS FROM WESTCOTT AND HORT
Concerning the Deity of Christ:​
"He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him." (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

"(John) does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ." (Westcott, Ibid., p. 16).
​
Concerning the Scriptures:​
"I reject the infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

"Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise." (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p. vii).

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible." (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)
​
Concerning Hell:​
"(Hell is) not the place of punishment of the guilty, (it is) the common abode of departed spirits. (Westcott, Historic Faith, pp.77-78).
"We have no sure knowledge of future punishment, and the word eternal has a far higher meaning." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p.149). ​
Concerning Creation:​
"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history. I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did." (Westcott, cited from Which Bible?, p. 191).
"But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with..... My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Hort, cited from Which Bible?, p. 189)
Concerning the Atonement:​
"I think I mentioned to you before Campbell's book on the Atonement, which is invaluable as far as it goes; but unluckily he knows nothing except Protestant theology." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 322)
"The popular doctrine of substitution is an immoral and material counterfeit...nothing can be more unscriptural than the the limiting of Christ's bearing our sins and sufferings to His death; but indeed that is only one aspect of an almost universal heresy." (Hort to Westcott, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 430)
"I confess I have no repugnance to the primitive doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan. I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father." (Hort, The First Epistle of St. Peter 1:1-2:17, p. 77).
Concerning Man:​
"It is of course true that we can only know God through human forms, but then I think the whole Bible echoes the language of Genesis 1:27 and so assures us that human forms are divine forms." (Hort to Westcott, August 14, 1860)
"Protestants (must) unlearn the crazy horror of the idea of Priesthood." (Hort, Life and Letters, Volume II, pp. 49-51)
Concerning Roman Catholicism:​
"I wish I could see to what forgotten truth Mariolatry (the worship of the Virgin Mary) bears witness." (Westcott, Ibid. )
"I have been persuaded for many years that Mary-Worship and Jesus-Worship have very much in common." (Hort, Life and Letters, Volume II, pp. 49-51)
"The pure Romanish view seems to be nearer, and more likely to lead to the truth than the Evangelical." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p. 77)
"I agree with you in thinking it a pity that Maurice verbally repudiates purgatory . . . the idea of purgation, cleansing by fire, seems to me inseparable from what the Bible teaches us of the Divine chastisements." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. II, pp. 336,337)
Concerning the Cumulative Effect of Multiple Changes to the Manuscripts:​
"It is quite impossible to judge the value of what appear to be trifling alterations merely by reading them one after another. Taken together, they have often important bearings which few would think of at first. . . The difference between a picture, say of Raffaelle, and a feeble copy of it is made up of a number of trivial differences. . . We have successfully resisted being warned off dangerous ground, where the needs of revision required that it should not be shirked. . . It is, one can hardly doubt, the beginning of a new period in Church history. So far the angry objectors have reason for their astonishment." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol.I, pp. 138,139)

Well, I guess that settles that issue! Wow. I love my King Jimmy!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I find the quotes about W & H posted by Margaret to be very disturbing. Not having been to seminary, I have to trust more knowledgable, godly men on certain subjects as which Bible translation to use. I have read that there are translations that are MORE accurate than KJV because they are based on older manuscripts. They conclude that KJV had extra passages that were added since fewer manuscripts have the passages in question.

So who do you believe????

Let's say those godly men just don't know this about W&H and the fact that those earlier manuscripts WERE known and rejected early on. And let's say that the KJV is a more trustworthy translation. It still remains that I cannot simply read that translation and understand it as well as a more modern translation. I am not clear on whether the NKJV is really based on the same manuscripts as the KJV or not. I am fine with reading the NKJV, but if it is the same as the ESV, then I guess there is no reason to read it.

If the KJV is the only version based on the right manuscripts, then why doesn't someone update the language so it can be read in today's English? Or does the NKJV meet this need?

I really get a headache over this stuff. You really in your heart want to go to the most faithful church and read the scripture that is most faithfully translated in your own language. But the fact that very respected men differ over the translation question makes it almost impossible for people like me to know what to do.
 
I find the quotes about W & H posted by Margaret to be very disturbing. Not having been to seminary, I have to trust more knowledgable, godly men on certain subjects as which Bible translation to use. I have read that there are translations that are MORE accurate than KJV because they are based on older manuscripts. They conclude that KJV had extra passages that were added since fewer manuscripts have the passages in question.

So who do you believe????

Let's say those godly men just don't know this about W&H and the fact that those earlier manuscripts WERE known and rejected early on. And let's say that the KJV is a more trustworthy translation. It still remains that I cannot simply read that translation and understand it as well as a more modern translation. I am not clear on whether the NKJV is really based on the same manuscripts as the KJV or not. I am fine with reading the NKJV, but if it is the same as the ESV, then I guess there is no reason to read it.

If the KJV is the only version based on the right manuscripts, then why doesn't someone update the language so it can be read in today's English? Or does the NKJV meet this need?

I really get a headache over this stuff. You really in your heart want to go to the most faithful church and read the scripture that is most faithfully translated in your own language. But the fact that very respected men differ over the translation question makes it almost impossible for people like me to know what to do.

Why do you think the KJV is hard to read?
 
"He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him." (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

If anyone will go to the link provided and read this actual page it will be obvious that the author is not saying that Christ is not God, in fact the sentence preceding the one quoted proves just that. This is so typical of the Gail Riplinger, Texe Marrs method of ripping short quotes out of their context to make it sound like the author is saying the opposite of what they are actually saying.
If KJVO people want to be taken seriously, they should use better sources for their arguments.

terry
 
I don't want to be disrespectful towards anyone who prefers the KJV. But, isn't it kind of unreformed to keep using the King James when it's language is archaic? What I mean is, the reformers wanted to put the word of God in the speech of everyday people. The King James is anything but the speech of the common American, Brit, Australian, or South African. Am I missing something?

BTW: I do believe that we should try to find translations that are faithful to the original text. I'm not advocating that we trade in King James for The Message as our preaching and devotional Bible. What I am saying is that I think the Bible needs to be in a dialect of English that is closer to the speech of the average person.
 
I don't want to be disrespectful towards anyone who prefers the KJV. But, isn't it kind of unreformed to keep using the King James when it's language is archaic? What I mean is, the reformers wanted to put the word of God in the speech of everyday people. The King James is anything but the speech of the common American, Brit, Australian, or South African. Am I missing something?

BTW: I do believe that we should try to find translations that are faithful to the original text. I'm not advocating that we trade in King James for The Message as our preaching and devotional Bible. What I am saying is that I think the Bible needs to be in a dialect of English that is closer to the speech of the average person.

The language of the AV was not the language of the common man when it was translated. The language was archaic in 1611. The idea of putting the sacred scriptures in common everyday language is misguided. You can't put Hebrew idioms into everyday language. You most definitely cannot put the writings of Paul into everyday language. Unless you don't mind having someone's interpretation instead of an actual translation.

It was either Harvard or Oxford that commented on the various English translations. They found as the English translations became more like common speech, they drifted further away from the original languages.

There is another problem with putting God's word in common everyday language. Read Luke 22:31,32 in any modern version without referring to any margin notes or footnotes or any other resources and answer this, To whom was Jesus speaking in verses 31 & 32? And how do you know?

Then read it in either the Geneva or Authorized Version. The ambiguity is removed. Any translation of scripture must have that specificity for it to be useful for an English reader.

Of course I would like the AV to change Easter to Passover as most people today now know that passover can refer to the whole season. I would also like 'unicorn(s)' replaced with the margin note rhinoceros, and some other changes. But the so-called archaic language should not be touched. Propitiation should never be removed from scripture just because it's 'archaic.'
 
"He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him." (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

If anyone will go to the link provided and read this actual page it will be obvious that the author is not saying that Christ is not God, in fact the sentence preceding the one quoted proves just that. This is so typical of the Gail Riplinger, Texe Marrs method of ripping short quotes out of their context to make it sound like the author is saying the opposite of what they are actually saying.
If KJVO people want to be taken seriously, they should use better sources for their arguments.

terry

To further demonstrate the problem you pointed out I would recommend buying "Heresies of Westcott & Hort" by D. A. Waite. All of the references to their writings are available online at the links listed above. I did it myself a few months back, but only managed to get through half of Waite's book. Too many ad hominem arguments. If you don't want to buy the book, sermon audio has 4.5 hours of his radio rants that covers the same material as the book. (Remember, that is 4.5 hours you will never get back. I threw away my study on it because I was so disgusted with Waite's continual ad hominem attacks.)

Either way, Waite over exaggerates, rips out of context, or judges as heresy what Reformed folk call Bible doctrine. Westcott & Hort were definitely wrong on certain doctrines, but to read Waite you'd think they were Satan's begotten children. Personally I don't consider Westcott & Hort orthodox. Having gone through half of Waite's book and reading W/H in context, they were not orthodox in their beliefs.
 
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Terry, I'm having trouble reading "The Gospel According to St. John by Westcott" at that Google link -- all I get is a "snippet" of the page -- any suggestions?

Thanks, Steve
 
Terry, I'm having trouble reading "The Gospel According to St. John by Westcott" at that Google link -- all I get is a "snippet" of the page -- any suggestions?

Thanks, Steve

The Gospel According to St. John ... - Google Book Search

It's linked to the page in question. The sentence in question occurs above the footnote to verse 29.

Here's the link to chapter 5 which is referenced in the footnote.

The Gospel According to St. John ... - Google Book Search

I think his footnote on verse 28 was just referring to verse 28 and nothing more. He refers back to chapter 5 in regards to Jesus stating that he is God.
 
The language of the AV was not the language of the common man when it was translated. The language was archaic in 1611. The idea of putting the sacred scriptures in common everyday language is misguided. You can't put Hebrew idioms into everyday language. You most definitely cannot put the writings of Paul into everyday language. Unless you don't mind having someone's interpretation instead of an actual translation.

It was either Harvard or Oxford that commented on the various English translations. They found as the English translations became more like common speech, they drifted further away from the original languages.

There is another problem with putting God's word in common everyday language. Read Luke 22:31,32 in any modern version without referring to any margin notes or footnotes or any other resources and answer this, To whom was Jesus speaking in verses 31 & 32? And how do you know?

Then read it in either the Geneva or Authorized Version. The ambiguity is removed. Any translation of scripture must have that specificity for it to be useful for an English reader.

Of course I would like the AV to change Easter to Passover as most people today now know that passover can refer to the whole season. I would also like 'unicorn(s)' replaced with the margin note rhinoceros, and some other changes. But the so-called archaic language should not be touched. Propitiation should never be removed from scripture just because it's 'archaic.'

I don't really consider that the ESV uses common language we hear on the street. I think is uses a more literary language. Yet it uses words that can be understood by an educated person of today.

Okay, here are the Luke 22:31-32 verses:

KJV:

31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


ESV:

31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

I don't get it. They seem to say the same thing to me.

Janis
 
Terry, I'm having trouble reading "The Gospel According to St. John by Westcott" at that Google link -- all I get is a "snippet" of the page -- any suggestions?

Thanks, Steve

The Gospel According to St. John ... - Google Book Search

It's linked to the page in question. The sentence in question occurs above the footnote to verse 29.

Here's the link to chapter 5 which is referenced in the footnote.

The Gospel According to St. John ... - Google Book Search

I think his footnote on verse 28 was just referring to verse 28 and nothing more. He refers back to chapter 5 in regards to Jesus stating that he is God.


Yikes!! After reading the above footnotes, they are even more revealing than the original quote. People can't say they were taken out of context, and his epistemological bias and naturalistic framework come through!
 
ESV:

Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.


Hebrews 2:17
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
 
A few points

1) How many CT guys totally follow Westcott and Hort in every thing they teach? For the sake of argument, isn't it possible these guys stumbled onto something right, despite their other issues?

2) What modern translations throw out the deity of Christ (we're not talking of the JW or liberal nonsense)? Most of them are far more clear than King James is that Jesus is truly God.

3) The excellence of (some) modern editions should not be ignored due to problems with the translators. (In fact Westcott and Hort didn't translate any of the modern Bibles!) The NIV, NAS, ESV, and other translators are committed to inerrancy. At the same time, the excellence of the Authorized Version should not be discounted due to the fact that King Jimmy was a "divine right" tyrant, crypto-papist, and would be the first to persecute most of us on this board for "nonconformity" (Hello Baptists, Presbyterians, Nondenoms, even Reformed Anglicans!).

4) What about the NKJV? It is fairly literary. Or the World English Bible, which uses the Majority Text?

5) And I would definitely support a Geneva-Preference over an AV-Preference.
 
Of course I would like the AV to change Easter to Passover as most people today now know that passover can refer to the whole season. I would also like 'unicorn(s)' replaced with the margin note rhinoceros, and some other changes. But the so-called archaic language should not be touched. Propitiation should never be removed from scripture just because it's 'archaic.'

I wasn't trying to say that they should remove words like propitiation. The ESV is a modern translation and it retains important theological terms like propitiation and justification.
 
Thanks, Chris, but I still couldn't get to it (on either Safari or Firefox), so I found a site where one can download W & H's works in PDF or Word: Westcott and Hort Resource Centre - Bookshelf

To be fair, Terry has a point. The statement, "He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him" (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297) is not damning of itself, though incorrect. Westcott was a learned man, and he knew the Scriptures. In other places, such as his commentary on John 1:1, his remarks are orthodox. W's statement pertains to Jesus referring to Himself "directly as God", not Messiah or Son of God. I think this is in error due to Jesus' "I am" statement in John 5:58, or where He says in John 10:30, "I and my Father are one." The Jews well understood that Jesus' words signified He was indeed Jehovah God (see v. 33). Westcott means to say, I believe, Jesus didn't use the words "I am God."

This, however, was not given to Him to say by the Father at that point, as His revelation of His Nature was progressive, due to the dullness and inability of the disciples to receive it. After His resurrection and ascension things changed. Inspired by the Spirit of Christ the apostles make numerous direct statements as to the full deity of Jesus -- and this was the Lord speaking through them.

Janis, I feel for you in your being disturbed to the point of having a headache over this stuff! It is a shame we are put in a predicament like this, but Pandora's box having been opened we must contain the destruction unleashed.

The NKJV is not too bad (it has some serious problems, though they're mild compared to the other modern versions based on the Critical Text). The Modern King James Version, by Jay P. Green, is an alternative. The pew Bible of my church is NKJV, as I had a choice between that and the ESV by the planting church which provided our Bibles.

My wife uses the NIV and she is a godly woman who loves the Word of God. She is aware of my position (she sits under my sermons where I bring this up occasionally -- and I see her using the KJV at times), but I do not lord it over her in this matter, and give her her space to make her own decision. I am delighted at her love of the Scriptures. One of my favorite preachers, Tim Keller, uses the NIV and the ESV (though he refers to other versions as well as the Greek and Hebrew texts), and he is a godly man.

Jakob van Bruggen, in his classic, The Ancient Text of the New Testament, discusses the situation vis-a-vis modern textual criticism. The opening section, "The Last Certainty of New Testament Textual Criticism", might clarify things for you somewhat.

This is something you're going to have to study and come to your own conclusions concerning. There's no going back to the simpler days when there was a universal text for the English-speaking church. If I would have to recommend only one book to you, it would be Dr. Thomas Holland's, Crowned With Glory: The Bible from Ancient Text to Authorized Version. (I see the basic core of it is now online at his site: Dr. Thomas Holland's Home Page.) But I much prefer the hard copy, as it has appendices, an intro plus other stuff not in the online version. Highly recommended!

This is an issue pertaining to the minutiae of the Bible being providentially preserved by God. The modern versions have the Scripture adequately preserved, so that souls may be saved, sanctified, and equipped for the spiritual life, and that churches may be organized and sustained. It is an issue of the minute details of Biblical preservation. There are godly and intelligent men and women who use the modern versions.

In my church, where most of the folks speak English as a second language, I feel for their difficulty comprehending even simple English, not to mention the King James English. I often read the Scripture portions from the NKJV, primarily because that is the pew Bible many are following me with. Though I usually preach from the KJV. Slowly they are learning to understand the King James English.

It was Jakob van Bruggen in his book on translation techniques, The Future of the Bible, who made the point that the KJV's English captured the cadence and structure of both the Hebrew and Greek in a way other more modern versions did not. E.F. Hills remarked,

The English of the King James Version is not the English of the early 17th century. To be exact, it is not a type of English that was ever spoken anywhere. It is biblical English, which was not used on ordinary occasions even by the translators who produced the King James Version. As H. Wheeler Robinson (1940) pointed out, one need only compare the preface written by the translators with the text of their translation to feel the difference in style. And the observations of W.A. Irwin (1952) are to the same purport. The King James Version, he reminds us, owes its merit, not to 17th-century English - which was very difficult - but to its faithful translation of the original. Its style is that of the Hebrew and of the New Testament Greek. Even in their use of thee and thou the translators were not following 17th-century English usage but biblical usage, for at the time these translators were doing their work these singular forms had already been replaced by the plural you in polite conversation. (The King James Version Defended, Des Moines: Christian Research Press, 1984, pp. 218)​

So please, relax over this issue, and when you have time study it. It is a wholesome endeavor, and will bear fruit. In this day of increasing apostasy, it will serve us well to know that the Bibles we use are reliable. We study other doctrines, so we also ought to study the doctrines of Scripture, its inspiration and preservation.

Chris, I'm not as down on Dr. D.A. Waite as you. Yes, he gets carried away sometimes, but he is a good scholar. He is just very upset at what Westcott and Hort have done. He has read through the W&H books, and the memoirs of their sons, thoroughly. He has made available multitudes of out-of-print books on the topic of King James defense. Even though he makes minor mistakes at times, I am not offended in him.
 
The language of the AV was not the language of the common man when it was translated. The language was archaic in 1611. The idea of putting the sacred scriptures in common everyday language is misguided. You can't put Hebrew idioms into everyday language. You most definitely cannot put the writings of Paul into everyday language. Unless you don't mind having someone's interpretation instead of an actual translation.

It was either Harvard or Oxford that commented on the various English translations. They found as the English translations became more like common speech, they drifted further away from the original languages.

There is another problem with putting God's word in common everyday language. Read Luke 22:31,32 in any modern version without referring to any margin notes or footnotes or any other resources and answer this, To whom was Jesus speaking in verses 31 & 32? And how do you know?

Then read it in either the Geneva or Authorized Version. The ambiguity is removed. Any translation of scripture must have that specificity for it to be useful for an English reader.

Of course I would like the AV to change Easter to Passover as most people today now know that passover can refer to the whole season. I would also like 'unicorn(s)' replaced with the margin note rhinoceros, and some other changes. But the so-called archaic language should not be touched. Propitiation should never be removed from scripture just because it's 'archaic.'

I don't really consider that the ESV uses common language we hear on the street. I think is uses a more literary language. Yet it uses words that can be understood by an educated person of today.

Okay, here are the Luke 22:31-32 verses:

KJV:

31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.


ESV:

31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

I don't get it. They seem to say the same thing to me.

Janis

They're saying two different things. In verse 31 he is addressing Peter first and then the disciples. The AV reading makes this clear by distinguishing between the 2nd person singular and the 2nd person plural with its usage of the thou/you distinction. In verse 32 he is only addressing Peter. You cannot derive this information from the ESV.

In verse 31 we read, And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

The two "you"s refer to the disciples as a whole.

But in verse 32 we read, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Thee/thy/thou are all referring to Peter. Modern versions remove the distinction between the singular and plural pronouns.

Here is a link to an article from the Trinitarian Bible Society dealing with more examples of thou/you distinction and some other problem areas in the ESV as a whole.

http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/A120.pdf
 
Well, Chris, I'll have to say that the translation didn't matter a single bit...because I thought they said the same thing in both versions! Maybe I need a child's version!:um:

However, I just looked up the passage in my Reformation Study Bible (ESV) and it explains that "you" is plural. So it seems that I may get greatest understanding by using my ESV with the notes.
 
Chris, I'm not as down on Dr. D.A. Waite as you. Yes, he gets carried away sometimes, but he is a good scholar. He is just very upset at what Westcott and Hort have done. He has read through the W&H books, and the memoirs of their sons, thoroughly. He has made available multitudes of out-of-print books on the topic of King James defense. Even though he makes minor mistakes at times, I am not offended in him.

I am merely aggravated at his pushing of the ad hominem as if it proved his case. He has done the same thing to Letis' The Ecclesiastical Text. I have some of his books and have bought my Burgon books from him. And I have bought Scrivener's Introduction and Hoskeir's Codex B from him as well. I just find myself saying to the mp3 player, "Who cares about that! Deal with what he said!" His arguments would also have more weight if he didn't condemn as heresy Reformed Doctrine. I enjoyed his Fourfold Defense of the KJV and some of his other books. Some of the best first person resources for AV defense are offered by him. But the constant engaging in ad hominem against W/H detracts from the points he is making.

Perhaps it's just me. I find it difficult to read or listen to such things anymore. Maybe too many Dragnet reruns. "Just the facts."
 
Well, Chris, I'll have to say that the translation didn't matter a single bit...because I thought they said the same thing in both versions! Maybe I need a child's version!:um:

How did you know when Jesus switched from talking to Peter to the disciples and back from the disciples to Peter again?
 
Hey...or we could have the southern version with "y'all" instead of "you", and then I would have known for sure that it was plural!:lol:
 
Well, Chris, I'll have to say that the translation didn't matter a single bit...because I thought they said the same thing in both versions! Maybe I need a child's version!:um:

How did you know when Jesus switched from talking to Peter to the disciples and back from the disciples to Peter again?

I didn't. I thought He was speaking to Peter the whole time in both (when I was not looking at notes). But again, that is why I have a Reformation Study Bible so I can have some help!
 
Hey...or we could have the southern version with "y'all" instead of "you", and then I would have known for sure that it was plural!:lol:

That's not funny!

How dare you show such disregard for the proper interpretation of scripture as given in the only perfect English translation: The Texas Bible!

Yeah, I'm joking. :p

Couldn't resist.

"And on the eighth day God created Texas."
 
Well, Chris, I'll have to say that the translation didn't matter a single bit...because I thought they said the same thing in both versions! Maybe I need a child's version!:um:

How did you know when Jesus switched from talking to Peter to the disciples and back from the disciples to Peter again?

I didn't. I thought He was speaking to Peter the whole time in both (when I was not looking at notes). But again, that is why I have a Reformation Study Bible so I can have some help!

What about those who don't buy a study Bible? The translation should accurately reflect the Hebrew and Greek texts. That's my only point.

Get rid of the Reformation Study Bible and buy this one, or better yet buy me a copy of this one!! The Holy Bible with Dutch Annotations. Now that's a study Bible.

Because modern version fail to distinguish between the two pronoun types they are not as faithful to the original languages as they should be. Even if there were not a problem with the underlying texts of modern versions, I would still have a problem with the way they translate. Besides the AKJV, I have not found a modern version I can trust for apologetical arguments.

Hope that helps explain my view.
 
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