Monetary giving & authority
- Thread starter john_Mark
- Start date
- Status
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
I recall worshipping at a Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland congregation in Ulster and noting that their church bulletins specified the previous week's giving by each individual's name, as well as their yearly totals.
In my view, that's going too far, but in general terms, I do believe that tithing is a subject that ministers should preach about and that -- just like any other area of life -- there should be accountability. If one is not giving to their church, one should be receiving diaconal support. Tithing is a moral duty and moral duties (or the failure thereof) are matters worthy of attention by a session.
In my view, that's going too far, but in general terms, I do believe that tithing is a subject that ministers should preach about and that -- just like any other area of life -- there should be accountability. If one is not giving to their church, one should be receiving diaconal support. Tithing is a moral duty and moral duties (or the failure thereof) are matters worthy of attention by a session.
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
If someone who attends the church gives $5 a week and is working, something is wrong and the elders should say something. But the whole printed name in the bulletin is way over the top.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
Andrew,
I agree with you 100% on that tithing should be an obligation that we adhere to. I think it also should be a thing that is a matter of the church officers and the member.
I do have a question about it being a moral law though. I haven't read into this topic hardly at all. Wasn't the tithe in the OT considered part of the ceremonial laws as a part of worship? What NT text calls for it? The only one I'm aware is where Jesus was chastising the pharisees for tithing mint and cummin but neglecting the weightier matters of the law.
This goes back to the whole theonomy thing again about if laws are not changed or abrogated or different due to cultural reasons then they are still binding. If the tithe was more of a ceremonial thing then it would not be binding would it? I'm not trying to bait you, I'm really seeking your thoughts.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Good question. I see the foundation for tithing in Genesis, not Exodus (the same could be said of the Sabbath and the death penalty for murder). In Gen. 4.4, Abel is the first man in Scripture known to tithe and I believe it was because of God's moral law imprinted upon his heart. Likewise, Abraham tithed to Melchizedek in Gen. 14.20. Tithing, then, preceded the ceremonial law.
However, the NT has a surprising amount to say about tithing and although the ceremonial law was abolished or fulfilled in Christ, nevertheless, there is a moral equity involved in tithing that has not been abolished. See 1 Cor. 9.13-14; 1 Cor. 16.1-2; 2 Cor. 9.7; Matt. 22.21. There is a duty that Christians have to uphold the ministry by financial means and to give the minister what is due to him for his labors. I believe in light of the OT teachings which preceed the giving of the ceremonial law, that this is a moral duty and not an aspect of ceremonial worship or a vague general suggestion for Christians in the NT era.
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
thanks for the verses...I'll have to read up on this tonight. As far as support for the oxen/pastors (without checking the verses yet, isn't this an appeal to the very case/judicial law that is now set aside?), does that require us to make an offering or have a definitive 10%?
john_Mark
Puritan Board Freshman
One thing about US churches is that people may keep track of how much they give so they may itemize this on their taxes. However, there may be people who don't care to keep track of this. Do you see a scriptural mandate that says the church must keep track of each persons monetary givings?
I do think printing names and money amount in the program each week is a little far.
I do think printing names and money amount in the program each week is a little far.
Authorised
Puritan Board Freshman
Ironically, the only time Jesus ever said the pharisees did something right was when they tithed their anise and cumin.
"this ought ye to have done..."
"this ought ye to have done..."
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
None of the verses I cited have to do with any "case" or "judicial" laws. I believe 10% is the Scriptural standard, but I have not explored that fully. The main point for me is that tithing one's firstfruits to God and the service of his kingdom is a moral duty grounded in Genesis where God first revealed his moral law to his people, emphasized in Malachai, and confirmed in the NT where Jesus and Paul teach that we are render unto God the things that are God's.
john_Mark
Puritan Board Freshman
Genesis 4:4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
While we seem to be drifting from my orginal questions, it seems that Abel gave faithfully his best to God. As we should. We aren't told, however, what percentage Abel gave.
Genesis 14:20....He gave him a tenth of all.
This gets back to what Pastor Way said. A "tenth of all" is more than 10% of just one's paycheck. Does this verse lend itself as a standard for the church to authoritatively command 10%?
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
While we seem to be drifting from my orginal questions, it seems that Abel gave faithfully his best to God. As we should. We aren't told, however, what percentage Abel gave.
Genesis 14:20....He gave him a tenth of all.
This gets back to what Pastor Way said. A "tenth of all" is more than 10% of just one's paycheck. Does this verse lend itself as a standard for the church to authoritatively command 10%?
Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
The statements in 1 Cor. 9:13-14 are rooted in verses 9-12, which do indeed apply a case law to the situation of the day.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
I think I would characterize the verses I cited as being related to rather than rooted in the verses which you referenced.
[Edited on 1-12-2004 by VirginiaHuguenot]
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
The tithe was alway food, never monetary.
It did involve more than money and wa snot usually money but money was given at times.....look it up!
Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians that the starting point for New Testament giving is to give ourselves!! Limiting our giving to a percentage of a financial amount misses not only the whole point buts falls way short of both the scope of giving and the heart attitude that God requires from teh giver.
Back to the point - I think that the elders have no business enforcing any kind of requirement for giving other than to oversee the flock and make sure that they are cheerful givers.
We are not money changers.....
Phillip
Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians that the starting point for New Testament giving is to give ourselves!! Limiting our giving to a percentage of a financial amount misses not only the whole point buts falls way short of both the scope of giving and the heart attitude that God requires from teh giver.
Back to the point - I think that the elders have no business enforcing any kind of requirement for giving other than to oversee the flock and make sure that they are cheerful givers.
We are not money changers.....
Phillip
- Status
