Oh, that Luther!

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I do think that the most charitable interpretation is the one we are to adopt, unless other evidence rules it out of court. I think we should apply that in our reading of and about our brethren, even the ones in Scripture.

But I know sometimes we fall into a mindset where we worry that the attacks from hostile elements are true, and it can awkward to come across such a quote because we feel it as a toehold for them; but if their petty attacks didn't concern us, I suspect we would be less likely to perceive the words in question as being problematic to begin with. Perhaps that is not very clear. The way we perceive words has a certain dependence upon our emotional condition, and if we were cheerful and untroubled I think we would perceive fewer things as being careless or damaging or whatever.
 
This only illustrates we must be careful in speculating and focusing on 500 year old hearsay evidence, quoted without complete context, and interpreted centuries later. The difficulty is only further complicated if the parties were under the influence of intoxication.

A charitable esteem for our neighbor and for the cause of truth would cause us to stay away from speculating based on things like this. Who among us would want to be evaluated on bases like this? :)
 
Scott1 said:
This only illustrates we must be careful in speculating and focusing on 500 year old hearsay evidence, quoted without complete context, and interpreted centuries later. The difficulty is only further complicated if the parties were under the influence of intoxication.

A charitable esteem for our neighbor and for the cause of truth would cause us to stay away from speculating based on things like this. Who among us would want to be evaluated on basis like this? :)
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I gave a link to his writings that have this quote in it.
 
Yes, I see a link to a book that has taken quotes attributed to Mr. Luther. It's understandable how that can be cited as a basis for discussing his views.

It appears though, these were not original writings of the esteemed Reformer, but transcriptions written by others, apparently in a beer tavern atmosphere. They are being selectively quoted, in and out, around the author's commentary.

Also, what we do know of Mr. Luther's writings, these statements do not seem consistent and it is not at all clear their context. That doesn't mean he did not say these things exactly as quoted (though we still do not seem to have their context)- it is possible.

The only point being, knowing how prone we are to misunderstand and reflect what others say attributing our own motives, how careful we must be, particularly in attributing his overall character and motives.

Hearsay is often repeated to slander, impugn or scandalize people and it is communicated as if it had a high degree of reliability. Such is not the case, that's why hearsay evidence, for example, is not generally admissible in court. Yet we receive it as truth in our discourse.

When we reflect on what the ninth commandment requires, it is convicting- because we all violate it... and so readily.

Question 144: What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?

Answer: The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things: Whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for, and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requires; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of: Whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.
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So you are saying those are not his writings? I didn't see where it had another author listed.
 
Ivan said:
“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.” --- Martin Luther
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What do you think of this quote from Luther?
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He's talking in regard to the relationship between faith and a clear conscience before God. See pp. 287-288 in Luther The Reformer, The Story of the Man and his Career, by James M. Kittelson, Professor of Church History at Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Mn. "Disasters and bizarre occurances were indeed the work of Satan. But they paled to insignificance by comparison with faith or the absence of faith. Faced with an attack on faith, Luther even had little regard for common morality, at least if it was used to make believers feel guilty. He frequently was very explicit on this subject. 'Sometimes it is necessary to drink a little more, play, joke, or even commit some sin in defiance and contempt of the devil in order not to give him an opportunity to make us scrupulous about small things. We will be overcome if we worry too much about falling into some sin...What do you think is my reason for drinking wine undiluted, talking freely, and eating more often if it is not to torment and vex the devil who has made up his mind to torment and vex me? Would that I could commit some token sin simply for the sake of mocking the devil, so that he might understand that I acknowledge no sin and am conscious of no sin. When the devil attacks and torments us, we must completely set aside the Ten Commandments.' (Weimar edition of Luther's works 1930 Volume 5, p. 519 [Letters of Spiritual Counsel, p. 86]). Nothing, absolutely nothing was more important to Luther than faith and, with it, a free conscience."

Many of Luther's sermons and works are filled with exhortation to holiness and obedience to God's commands. But, when it comes to defending justification by faith alone, and the clear conscience that one may have before God by faith alone, statements like this from him come up. He drew the line so clear when it came to justification, that, to impress upon his hearers just how far removed faith was to be from works in having any part in it, bold statements like this were made by him. And, to help those who were being pressed upon and tormented by Satan with a guilty conscience, who struggled to cling to Christ by plain faith, such statements, I'm sure, brought a sigh of relief.
 
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TranZ4MR
So you are saying those are not his writings?
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I don't know- it appears some of the quotations were transcriptions made by others (his students). They are selectively quoted. The sections I just scanned are generally, brief excerpts. That doesn't mean they are of no value, but are not a firm basis to evaluate the great Reformer's Theology.

The book is not one written by Mr. Luther, but about him, and with the viewpoint of the author, and he states his agenda (the author's) in his preface:

The present work aims to explain that personality; to show him in the setting of his age ; to indicate what part of his work is to be attributed to his inheritance and to the events of the time, but especially to reveal that part of the man which seems, at least, to be explicable by neither heredity nor environment, and to be more important than either, the character, or individuality.
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Don't know much about the author's biases, whether he is a Christian, a theologian, or focused on presenting Mr. Luther in a provocative or controversial manner or what.
 
Sarah,

Luther's Tabletalk, part of his "Complete Works," was not composed by him in the conventional manner. It consists of a series of topical vignette's recorded and reported by his students who took them down, edited them, and collated them into a single work. In this sense, yes they are Luther's words. However, they do not come from his "pen."

Imagine that a group of your friends made notes about things you said, in the breakroom, in the bathroom, over dinner, while just "hanging out." Then, after your death, an admirer pulled them together, selected some, and printed them in a book without giving much sense of context or background. See the problem?

I prefer to think that Luther was a pioneer. His excesses are real, but understandable when taken in the context in which they were given. Calvin, remember, was a second generation reformer who had the benefit of Luther, Zwingli, Oecolampadius, Bucer, and others who went before him.

Second, the Lutheran system is flawed (in my opinion) by his too radically polarized oppositional thinking about law and grace. Without Calvin's third use of the law (which he comes close to embracing in several places but never quite does), Luther is bound to err in his antinomian-sounding rants.

Third, please take into account the fact that these are the remembered words of students who were also in an environment of various levels of intoxication. They were not shown to Dr. Luther for revision and correction. Nor did he have the benefit of explaining himself. Like Barth, Luther makes MANY "over the top" comments that seem outrageous until explained.

Fourth, there are good reasons why those of us on the PB are Calvinists (sorry Josh, I don't have the energy after a MISERABLE day at work to quibble and parse whether Baptists can be Calvinists) rather than Lutherans. Yes, they are our brethren and co-religionists in the war of Reformational confessional Christianity against shallowanity in its various isms and varieties. But, there are significant hermeneutical and theological reasons for being in the Calvin camp rather than the Luther camp.
 
I understand and see your position on this particular thread concerning his quotes taken down by his students. However, like Sproul, I would consider Luther one of our giant spiritual forefathers and not just a "lutheran" who Calvin had to correct on every point. I'm sure that's not what you are saying and I'm sure people here value him highly, but many people with whom I have spoken underestimate his value to our doctrinal foundations. They believe he only began the reformation and others like Calvin really gave the teachings.
 
In the context of a reaction against Satan using the law as an accuser would, Luther's quote makes perfect sense. Where Satan uses the law to rob us of our joy and liberty and drudge us down in the guilt Christ freed us from, it's an apt piece of hyperbole.
 
Zenas said:
In the context of a reaction against Satan using the law as an accuser would, Luther's quote makes perfect sense. Where Satan uses the law to rob us of our joy and liberty and drudge us down in the guilt Christ freed us from, it's an apt piece of hyperbole.
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Yes, as Hyperbole.

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Ivan said:
I love this thread.
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Quit having so much fun Ivan! ;)
 
Sarah,

After completing a doctoral course on the Reformation, dealing largely with Luther, I am anything but his critic. His indictment of a "theology of glory" is a powerful contribution to our understanding of the way in which we are to be "theologians of the cross."

However, recognize that the early 16th century was a VERY different world from our own. Polemic was often carried out in harsh (by our PC standards) terms. Calvin's carping about Osiander in the Institutes would be a case in point. But, nobody excels Luther in his rude and scatalogical language.

I once counted more than 150 instances of rude German words for s*** in Luther's Works. Not checking the original, I cannot swear to the exact words used, but my recollection is that the vocabulary consists of s*** terms.

Our lazy bishops and clerics are not worthy of this name, yes, they are scarcely dung and vomit.
Martin Luther, vol. 16, Luther's Works, Vol. 16 : Lectures on Isaiah: Chapters 1-39, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1969), 16:303.
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Dear brother, let this preaching of mine be of service to you, in the first place, against our squires, the jurists and sophists. I am referring especially to the canonists, whom they themselves call “asses”; and that is what they are. Thus you may preserve in its purity the teaching of Christ in this chapter of Matthew, instead of their asinine cunning and devilish dung. In the second place there are the new jurists and sophists, the schismatic spirits and Anabaptists. From their crazy heads they are making new trouble out of this fifth chapter.
Martin Luther, vol. 21, Luther's Works, Vol. 21 : The Sermon on the Mount and the Magnificat, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1956), 21:4-5.
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Very well, here we have the supreme author of this edict: the spirit of the pope, father of all lies, who feels the urge to demonstrate his wisdom by applying it to God’s Word, so that this, too, may stink of his old manure.
Martin Luther, vol. 34, Luther's Works, Vol. 34 : Career of the Reformer IV, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1960), 34:69.
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Even fellow reformers Zwingli and Oecolampadius fall under the pinch of Luther's rhetoric.
Zwingli is obliged to prove this from Scripture. If he does not do this, his argument is mere dung. Similarly, Oecolampadius is under obligation to prove from Scripture that the word “body” necessarily means the same as the word “sign of the body.” If he doesn’t, he too is dung, and our text remains firm as a rock—“This is my body.”
Martin Luther, vol. 37, Luther's Works, Vol. 37 : Word and Sacrament III, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1961), 37:34.
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it means the beasts and barbarians who are not worthy to feed on the pope’s dung
Martin Luther, vol. 41, Luther's Works, Vol. 41 : Church and Ministry III, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1966), 41:270.
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He who hears this name from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away.
Martin Luther, vol. 47, Luther's Works, Vol. 47 : The Christian in Society IV, ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan, Hilton C. Oswald and Helmut T. Lehmann, Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1971), 47:286.
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Are you replacing the word dung for a swear word he used or did he actually use the word dung? Just curious as to what some might consider to be swear words.
 
TranZ4MR said:
Are you replacing the word dung for a swear word he used or did he actually use the word dung? Just curious as to what some might consider to be swear words.
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I think the word 'dung' is the cleaned up version. Of course, there are a few instances of that in the Bible too, are there not?
 
I didn't use the word "swear" (except that I cannot swear what word he used in the German). Luther was a HIGHLY scatalogical writer who did not shrink from saying that his opponents were "full of it." Someone with access to the original might be able to help us out here. But, my recollection is that he used the German equivalent for s*** to describe the pope, his bishops, his opponents, and even his fellow Reformers on occasion.

My point was that in the context of the 16th century, a coarser style of debate was practiced where Luther was not all that atypical. Even Calvin's refined prose stoops to name calling in his objections to Osiander.

But Osiander, thinking that he has gained the whole cause by this childish cavil, swells, exults, and stuffs whole pages with his bombast,

Osiander on coming to Scripture corrupts every passage which he quotes.

I only wished to give my readers a slender specimen of Osiander, it being my intention to decline the discussion of his frivolities, not because there is any difficulty in disposing of them, but because I am unwilling to annoy the reader with superfluous labour.

Elsewhere Calvin simply calls Osiander an "atheist."
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Of Calvin, another reformer called him a "mad dog. This man judges others as he loves them or hates them." A fellow Reformer called Melanchthon the "antichrist from the north."
 
DMcFadden said:
I didn't use the word "swear" (except that I cannot swear what word he used in the German). Luther was a HIGHLY scatalogical writer who did not shrink from saying that his opponents were "full of it." Someone with access to the original might be able to help us out here. But, my recollection is that he used the German equivalent for s*** to describe the pope, his bishops, his opponents, and even his fellow Reformers on occasion.

My point was that in the context of the 16th century, a coarser style of debate was practiced where Luther was not all that atypical. Even Calvin's refined prose stoops to name calling in his objections to Osiander.

But Osiander, thinking that he has gained the whole cause by this childish cavil, swells, exults, and stuffs whole pages with his bombast,

I only wished to give my readers a slender specimen of Osiander, it being my intention to decline the discussion of his frivolities, not because there is any difficulty in disposing of them, but because I am unwilling to annoy the reader with superfluous labour.
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Did Luther or Calvin ever visit Seattle?
 
Thanks for posting this quote. Especially the "Sin Boldly" one which was posted later. I just shared it with a friend of mine, who has a legalistic belief system (brought up mainstream methodist), and I believe it really affected him. He said it was, "beautiful." I was able from there to explain man's original sin and God's glorious grace in the election, salvation and justification of the ungodly by grace & faith alone, through Christ alone (substitution on the cross). I called out to him to "repent and believe this gospel." and to "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"-- Well I am praying for my friend. Thanks again for the quotes. Good stuff. Well done, Luther. Well done.
 
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Generally, it is fair to say that Messers. Luther and Calvin were the most important figures of the Reformation.

When one reads, Bondage of the Will, one sees Mr. Luther as more clearly advocating the "doctrines of grace" as strongly as Mr. Calvin and definitely explaining predestination/election and total depravity. So, in a sense, Mr. Luther was even more "Calvinistic" than Calvin himself.

The material cause of the Reformation was Mr. Luther's posting of the Theses on the church door at Wittenburg.
 
:lol: I believe it. Luther loved his beer, and his wine more. I read a biogrophy of Luther titled Here I Stand, mentions his love of his wife's home brew.
 
Adam Schaefers said:
Thanks for posting this quote. Especially the "Sin Boldly" one which was posted later. I just shared it with a friend of mine, who has a legalistic belief system (brought up mainstream methodist), and I believe it really affected him. He said it was, "beautiful." I was able from there to explain man's original sin and God's glorious grace in the election, salvation and justification of the ungodly by grace & faith alone, through Christ alone (substitution on the cross). I called out to him to "repent and believe this gospel." and to "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"-- Well I am praying for my friend. Thanks again for the quotes. Good stuff. Well done, Luther. Well done.
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"Sin boldly" must be taken in the context of the relationship between Luther and Melanchthon. Melanchthon was tempermentally timid and given to self-doubts. This early in the Reformation, it is not surprising that he was more than a little preoccupied with his own failures at Christian living.

Against the notion that forgiveness is less than robust, Luther advises him in his August 1, 1521 letter that if you downgrade the sinfulness of your sin and try to make yourself suitable for forgiveness, you miss the entire point. Unless it is your sin in all of its ugliness and horror that Christ died for and for which he made atonement, then you will never know the security of salvation. It is only when you realize that your very worst is covered by the blood of Christ, not merely your cleaned up and Christianized version that you can comprehend the magnitude of the work of Christ.

"Sundige tapfer" ("sin boldly") YES, but in the sense of knowing that your sin is truly sin and not mere error or mistake. But, Luther continues, "aber glaube tapferer" ("believe more boldly still"). Against the timidity of temperament of young Philip, Luther advises him to "accept" that he is a terrible sinner and that it was for such sin that the Son of God came to die and make atonement. If our sins were mere goofs, we would not need so great a savior. Emotionally plea bargaining the enormity of our cosmic rebellion down to the level of social gaffes is a recipe for a diminished Christology. Only a great Christ can forgive great sin.

Note the differences in the sanitized American edition vs. the original.

13."If you are a preacher of Grace, then preach a true, not a fictitious grace; if grace is true, you must bear a true and not a fictitious sin. God does not save people who are only fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here we have to sin. This life in not the dwelling place of righteousness but, as Peter says, we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. . . . Pray boldly-you too are a mighty sinner." (Weimar ed. vol. 2, p. 371; Letters I, "Luther's Works," American Ed., Vol 48. p. 281- 282)

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.
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This thread is a great example of the difference between the great men of the Church, and much of the worst of our Reformed mindset. The great men understood grace and lived it, while many in our Reformed circles coldly attempt to analyze grace (insisting on text-critical historical citations an what not at that!), and then sit around and fret about law.

Push yourselves away from the keyboard for a moment and go get a beer...

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In light of the above, I'd like to include a great little segment of a sermon preached several years back by a favorite Reformed minister of mine. I've mentioned him on this board before, but will refrain, since I want you just to listen to the vibrant truth of these words, and especially to take note of the great poem that he included in that sermon. Read, and be edified (or chastened, as the case may be):

"George Target describes that perfectly in that very short poem I’ve read to you before. It’s the description of the Scribe, the Pharisee, the modern day legalist that rules the heart:

They don’t smoke, but they don’t breath fresh air very deeply.
They don’t drink wine, but they don’t like lemonade.
They don’t swear, but they don’t glory in any magnificent word, either poetry or prayer.
They don’t gamble, but they don’t take a chance on God.
They don’t look at women with lust in their hearts, but neither do they roll breathless with love and laughter, naked under the sun in high summer.
It is all rather pale and round shouldered, the great prince in prison lying.

Oh is this the saddest word you’ve heard? When Christian life is described in that way. When Christians are held in bondage by the rule, the regulation, the law in which they trust. Even those who have found the grace of Christ find their lives so often bound by rules that rob them of joy, and bind them. If you’re like that this morning, let God’s Spirit break, let him break forth. You don’t live by law. You live instead by grace. Live! It’s the first command. Live!"
 
"Hermit hoar in solemn cell,
Wearing out life's evening grey
Smite thy bosom, sage, and tell
What is bliss? And whence the way?"

Thus I spake, and speaking sigh'd,
Scarce repressed the starting tear,
When the smiling sage replied,
"Come, my lad, and drink some beer!"
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Samuel Johnson, with some input from James Boswell
 
I am sure this quote is from his "Table-talk" where he was rather colourful and very honest. I recall reading in his Table-talk where he actually called the pope a bastard. Most of us think that, but we never say it out loud. :lol::lol:
 
I bought a beer jug i Wittenberg that said "A little jug of beer a day, by which to offend the devil" Luther
 
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