Passover

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
We don not see it as a required thing...we see it as a celebration of what Christ did. However there is breaking of bread (matzah) and giving of wine.

So what is this supposed to be mimicking, passover or the Lord's Supper?

I think there's a serious error to move the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, even in pretend, out from the oversight of the elders into the private home.

I can't seem to figure out if this is just play acting, or if it's really suposed to be something commanded by God to be observed by His people. There is much ambiguity surrounding it.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Mant times it is held in a church, not a home. There are times though that when a church is not available for it, then it takes place in the home.

You act as though we are children playing at the children of Israel. We don't

It doesn't mimick anything...it is the way it is. The Lord's supper took place during Passover, as part of the same meal... so where do you have a problem with this? Bread has always been broken during passover, before Christ did it with the apostles. Wine was always given, before Christ did it with the apostles. In fact it was part of the Passover meal that he did it as. The only thing He did different that shocked the apostles during the meal was #1 He told them to do it in remembrance of Him (what was about to occur) and #2 That He poured an extra glass of wine which they did not drink from, stating that they would drink together at the Banquet table.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Colleen,
But the supper has replaced the passover meal. We now feed on Christ.....There is no need for the passover meal in any spiritual way now.

 

[tcalbrecht]

"Messianic Judaism"
By James B. Jordan*

In recent years, a large number of Jewish young people have turned to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Many of these young people have formed "Messianic Synagogues," and have articulated here and there various theologies of "Messianic Judaism." For many, Messianic Judaism is simply a way of keeping some Jewish cultural traditions while becoming Christian, and there is nothing wrong with this. It is proper for Christians of various tribes and tongues to give expression to the faith in a variety of cultural forms.

Unfortunately, for some, Messianic Judaism is seen as an alternative to historic Christianity. This is due to the influence of pop-dispyism [dispensationalism]. After all, if the Millennium is right around the corner, and Jewish culture will be imperialistically triumphant during the Millennium, the even today Jewish practices anticipate that superiority. In fact, some Messianic Jews apparently believe that they can claim unlimited financial support from Gentile Christians, because of this preeminence. [1]

Most of what I have written regarding Christian Zionism above applies to this group of Messianic Jews. [2] I should like, however, to call attention to another facet of the matter. These Messianic Jews believe wrongly that Gentile Christianity (the historic church) departed from Biblical forms in the early days of the church. They see as their mission a restoration of these customs, which they believe they have preserved.

In fact, this is completely false. Anyone who has seen a presentation of "Christ in the Passover" is amazed at the number of non-Biblical rites that are discussed and exhibited (the use of eggs, bread broken in three pieces and hidden in cloth, etc.). These customs arose after the birth of the church, and do not preserve Old Testament ritual at all. Moreover, to try to place a Christian interpretation on the various features of these rituals is misguided and artificial. Clever as such presentations are, they are grossly misleading.

As a matter of fact, the leading features of Temple and Synagogue worship were brought straight into the church, as she spoiled the new enemies of God: apostate Jewry. The period of this spoiling was A.D. 30 to A.D. 70. Once the church had completed her integration of the spoils of the Old Covenant into her new, transfigured body, God destroyed the remnants of the Old Covenant completely. Modern Jewish rituals and music owe far more to racial/cultural inheritance from the peoples of Eastern Europe than they do to the Old Covenant. [3]

Thus, while there is nothing wrong with converted Jews maintaining a cultural continuity with their past, there are no grounds for the assumption that post-Christian Jewry has preserved the musical and liturgical forms of the Bible. Those forms were preserved in the church, and in her alone. Jews who wish to recover their heritage would do well to study the early church, not the traditions of Eastern European cultures.

[* taken from James B. Jordan, _The Sociology of the Church: Essays in Reconstruction_ (Tyler, TX: Geneva Ministries, 1986) p. 184-186. Jordan is the director of _Biblical Horizons_, P.O. Box 1096, Niceville, FL 32588.]

Notes:

[1] See Gary North, "Some Problems with 'Messianic Judaism,'" in _Biblical Economics Today_ 7:3 (Apr./May, 1984).

[2] Jordan calls Christian Zionism, the notion that Christians have a theological stake in the modern state of Israel, a "blasphemy" and "heresy." His particular criticism is directed at Christian Zionist Jerry Falwell.

[3] Louis Bouyer has shown at considerable length that the eucharistic prayer of the early church was a modification of the prayers of the synagogue and Temple. See Bouyer, _Eucharist_ (Notre Dame: U. of Notre Dame Press, 1968). Similarly, Eric Werner has shown that the plainchant of the Christian church preserves the style of music known among the Jews of the Old Testament period. See Werner, _The Sacred Bridge_ (Columbia U. Press, 1959; the paperback by Schocken only reproduces the first half of this important study).

[Edited on 3-2-2005 by tcalbrecht]

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
no, the Fourth of July was not a religious observance. Thanksgiving and Passover were. We still observe Thanksgiving...there is no harm in observing Passover. I am not elavating it to a dogmatic requirement, but neither is it without religious signifigance....it is full of religious symbolism and teaching.

So is Fiddler on the Roof, put no one is suggesting we bring it into the church and use it to [re]interpret the gospel.

The fact remains that the modern "passover" ritual is based on post-Christian rabbinic traditions that bear little resemblance to the authentic passover described in the Bible. In fact many of them were invented to specifically deny what Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah of Israel, had come in the flesh.

As I said before Christians with a Jewish background are fine trying to recall their cultural distinctives, as long as they can avoid syncretism.

I don't think I would not mention Passover and Thanksgiving in the same sentence. Thanksgiving is a unique American experience with religious overtones. But at its core it is a state-sponsored holiday. It is a day of family and football. I would not build a religious celebration around it, especially with Christian friends from another country.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
In fact it was part of the Passover meal that he did it as. The only thing He did different that shocked the apostles during the meal was #1 He told them to do it in remembrance of Him (what was about to occur) and #2 That He poured an extra glass of wine which they did not drink from, stating that they would drink together at the Banquet table.

Can you point that #2 out for me in the Bible?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Colleen,
You write:

I am not elavating it to a dogmatic requirement, but neither is it without religious signifigance....it is full of religious symbolism and teaching.

After thinking this through........

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

The question is, if Christ is our passover lamb, and He was sacrificed once for all, why celebrate anything but the supper. The passover looked forward, in faith. We have the reality; we should discard the old.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Has Christ come a second time? Do you realize that that is also symbolized in the Passover meal?

The Passover meal was to the (physical) salvation of the firstborn, as the Lord Supper is to our (spiritual) salvation. Both required a sacrifice. Both were continued as a remembrance. One was a foreshadowing of the other.

Tom, I really think you are going on assumptions here. Tell me what in the Passover meal denies Christ. Again, I do not believe you know what you are talking about here. And I would be willing to share how it actually points to Christ and what He did for us and toward His second coming.
Also, your article. I think it should be pointed out that "Messianic Judaism" is a VERY broad term. A Messianic Jew is simply a Jewish person who believe Christ is Messiah. MOST of the article seems to be dealing with some radicals that exists...and believe it or not, are actually gentiles trying to be more Jewish than the Jews. They are EXTREME legalists, EXTREME Dispensationalists, EXTREME on and on and on. I have known some of these. It would is a sad thing to take these few to broadbrush those elect Jewish ppl who wish to maintain the traditions that they now understand had furthur meaning that they were previously blind to and insist that they do away with it because of it's mere Jewishness. Neither they or myself are holding it higher or even equal to that which Christ instated. But neither should it be insultingly placed on the level of a BBQ or movie.

I was not referring to Thanksgiving in the sense of the gluttonous feast that we currently see. I was referring to what it had been and how some Christian families have tried to keep it. We don't watch football etc that day. It is a time of remembering and being thankful to the Lord God Almighty. And in our house we don't stuff till we drop. It is a simple meal (only with dessert , coca, and cider).

Tom, I will pull out my Haggadah and find out about the last cup again. I know I also heard it preached from my previous pastor.

 

[Scott Bushey]

The question is, if Christ is our passover lamb, and He was sacrificed once for all, why celebrate anything but the supper. The passover looked forward, in faith. We have the reality; we should discard the old.

Colleen,
I'm pushing this question at you again. Please look at the text.

1Co 5:7 Then purge out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened. For also Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us.

Is Christ OUR passover?

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Has Christ come a second time? Do you realize that that is also symbolized in the Passover meal?

What you refer to as the "passover meal" is the post-temple rabbinic interpretation of the Exodus story. Of course it would have things about the "second coming" (from a Christian perspective) since the rabbis who invented it denied that Christ came the first time!

I realize MJs are not monolithic. But I think some of the erroneous MJ theology has made it way into the broader community. Some folks accept this stuff without critical thought being given to the implications. It that sense it is much like dispensationalism.

Tom, I will pull out my Haggadah and find out about the last cup again. I know I also heard it preached from my previous pastor.

The only true "Haggadah" is found in the Bible. I realize some of these teachings are quite popular, even among the "goy", but they are seriously lacking in solid biblical support.

But, again, let me (respectfully) point out the folly of trying to find truth in this syncretistic rite of the modern passover. I'm assuming your desire is because of your Jewish background. We all have cultural roots, and appreciating those roots is a fine thing.

When Jesus and His apostles (esp. Paul) brought together Jews and gentiles into the universal church, the older forms that characterized national Israel passed away with the cultic rituals of the old covenant. That's why the blood picture of the passover was replaced by the simple picture of the Lord's Supper. That's also why circumcision as the mark of God's people was replaced by baptism. These new signs were universal. They could be observed by all Christians, not just those of a particular extraction.

Any attempt to go back to the old forms make mockery of what Christ did on the cross. As Scott correctly pointed out from Corinthians, He is our Passover! That's why the church moved on from the passover celebration 2000 years ago.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I'm not Jewish.

I was going to look in the Haggadah for the biblical reference.

Scott....where does it say that we can't or aren't allowed to?

Tom...It is not making a mockery. It actually does point to his first coming as well....let me ask you, does a lamb resurrect itself? The resurrection of Christ is also symbolized in the Passover meal.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I need to go tighten my corset and put on my hoops...gettin back to my roots ya know!

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt

I'm not Jewish.

I was going to look in the Haggadah for the biblical reference.

Scott....where does it say that we can't or aren't allowed to?

Tom...It is not making a mockery. It actually does point to his first coming as well....let me ask you, does a lamb resurrect itself? The resurrection of Christ is also symbolized in the Passover meal.

Colleen,
The point is not whether or not there is a indicator that we shouldn't; the point is, as believers, we have Christ now as our passover. The Lords supper is our passover. Let us bring God glory through this alone. Let us elevate the supper and leave those things that were shadows of HIM yet to come. He has arrived, let us move forward!

 

[LadyFlynt]

I do elevate the Lord's Supper, I believe I have made that abundantly clear. Esp, seeing as the children may participate in passover, but only certain of the older children are permitted to participate in the Lord's supper.

My point in the Passover is that there are things in it that we can use to teach our children. It is a special time. I see nothing wrong with this. I just don't like it demeaned to "playacting"

 

[LadyFlynt]

Please tell me that none of you give your children easter baskets and bunnies on Resurrection Sunday....

If you have a problem with Passover, you should have more of a problem with easter.

 

[LadyFlynt]

 

[pastorway]

Passover is an everlasting Ordinance (Ex 12), but it does not continue according to OT regulations - why? - because we have a new high priets, a new covenant, and a new spotless lamb who was died once for all (Heb 10). Passover is continued in the church today as the Lord's Supper!

Here are notes from a sermon I preached on this very topic on Palm Sunday last year:

Passover – An Everlasting Ordinance
Selected Scriptures
Pastor Phillip M. Way


I. The First Passover – Israel and the Exodus - Ex 12; Lev 23:4-5; Num 28:16-25; Deut 16:1-8

Tenth of Abib – select Passover Lamb and bring it home
Fourteenth of Abib – Sacrifice the lamb at 3 pm, cook, and eat the Lamb and the rest of the Passover meal
Fifteenth to Twenty-first of Abib – Feast of Unleavened Bread
Abib (“green” or “tender”) renamed Nisan (“first month”) after Exile – Nehemiah 2:1; Ezra 3:7

II. The Fulfilled Passover - Christ and His Disciples - Matthew 26:17-35; Mark 14:12-31; Luke 22:7-38; John 13:1-17:26

Eight Days – Selected Scriptures from the Four Gospels
A.D. 30 or 33 (dates work for both)
1. Sunday, Nisan 9 – Matt. 20:17-34; Mark 10:32-52; Luke 18:31-43
2. Monday, Nisan 10 – Matt. 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-10; Luke 19:29-38; John 12:12-15
3. Tuesday, Nisan 11 – Matt. 21:12-17; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46
4. Wednesday, Nisan 12 – Matt. 21:18 - 26:16; Mark 11:11 – 14:11; Luke 20:1 – 22:6
5. Thursday, Nisan 13 – Matt. 26:17-75; Mark 14:12-72; Luke 22:7-62; John. 13:21 – 18:27
6. Friday, Nisan 14 – Matt. 27:1-61; Mark 15:1-47; Luke 22:66 – 23:55; John 18:28 – 19:42
7. Saturday, Nisan 15 – Matt.21:62-66; Luke 23:56
8. Sunday, Nisan 16 – Matt. 28:1-8; Mark 16:1-6; Luke 24:1-11; John 20:1-8

Significant Events –
Monday – the day the Passover Lamb was chosen - Triumphal Entry (“Hosanna” means “Save Now”) –
TO THE DAY, see Zech. 9:9; Daniel 9:25; Neh. 2:6
Thursday – Washed Disciples Feet, Passover for Jesus and Disciples (from Galilee to the North), Lord’s
Supper, Garden of Gethsemane, Betrayal and Arrest, First Trial by Sanhedrin
Friday – Passover for Pharisees and Sadducees (from Jerusalem to the South), trial before Pilate, trial before Herod, Final Trial before Pilate, scourging, A Prisoner released to the Crowd, Crucifixion (Jesus died at the ninth hour – 3 pm, the exact hour the Passover lamb was to be
sacrificed!), Buried in a borrowed Grave
Saturday – In the Grave
Sunday- In the Grave until Early Morning, Resurrection!

III. The Familiar Passover – Communion in the Church - Acts 2:42; 1 Corinthians 11:17-34

IV. The Future Passover – The Marriage Feast of the Lamb – Rev 19:1-16


We will partake of this after Christ returns as an everlasting ordinance, remembering forever the sacrifice that was paid so that our sins would be passed over!

So to sum up - Passover = Communion and Christ has fulfilled it all!

Phillip

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Please tell me that none of you give your children easter baskets and bunnies on Resurrection Sunday....

If you have a problem with Passover, you should have more of a problem with easter.

Easter ... where's that found in the Bible?

Every Sunday is Resurrection Sunday. That's precisely why we worship on Sunday, the weekly Sabbath!

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Tom...It is not making a mockery. It actually does point to his first coming as well....let me ask you, does a lamb resurrect itself? The resurrection of Christ is also symbolized in the Passover meal. [/quote]

Are you speaking of the modern, ersatz "passover" meal?

 

[heartoflesh]

What about the issue of observing a Passover meal in order to learn more about it, how it foreshadowed Christ, Hebrew tradition, etc? Is there any benefit in this for a Christian? If there is, how do we know what traditions we should observe, and what not to?

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by Rick Larson
What about the issue of observing a Passover meal in order to learn more about it, how it foreshadowed Christ, Hebrew tradition, etc? Is there any benefit in this for a Christian? If there is, how do we know what traditions we should observe, and what not to?

That's an interesting theoretical question, but give us some practical features of this "passover" meal?

To begin with what exactly makes it a "passover" meal?

What is the pedigree of this "passover" meal?

 

[gwine]

Seems to me there is a difference between observing and participating. I myself would just read about it and let it go at that. We have a better observance now.

1 Cor 5:7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

 

[ReformedWretch]

I just want to let Scott and Tom know that their excellent points (and the one by Phillip) have inspired and taught me. I do not practice Passover, but your thoughts and scripture refrences help me in my stance against dispensationalism (Colleen, I am not saying you are dispensational!)

 

[heartoflesh]

Originally posted by tcalbrecht

That's an interesting theoretical question, but give us some practical features of this "passover" meal?

To begin with what exactly makes it a "passover" meal?

What is the pedigree of this "passover" meal?

Well, the only research I've ever done on the Passover meal itself (from the standpoint of tradition) was a book by Marvin Rosenthal-- I think the title was something like "The Feasts and Festivals of Israel". A friend borrowed it to me, and I can't find it listed on Amazon. I can try to borrow it again from him, and present some of the details as Rosenthal has them.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by Rick Larson

Originally posted by tcalbrecht

That's an interesting theoretical question, but give us some practical features of this "passover" meal?

To begin with what exactly makes it a "passover" meal?

What is the pedigree of this "passover" meal?

Well, the only research I've ever done on the Passover meal itself (from the standpoint of tradition) was a book by Marvin Rosenthal-- I think the title was something like "The Feasts and Festivals of Israel". A friend borrowed it to me, and I can't find it listed on Amazon. I can try to borrow it again from him, and present some of the details as Rosenthal has them.

Are you referring to "The Feasts Of The Lord"?

My problem with relying on interpretations by folks like Rosenthal is that they are decidedly non-reformed/non-covenantal. He is dispensational-like in much of what he says (e.g., pre-trib vs. pre-wrath are simply variations of traditional dispensationalism).

The real question is, what would be biblical passover look like under the new covenant? The answer is simply the Lord's Supper since it perfectly pictures the work of Christ, our True Passover.

 

[pastorway]

The feast has evolved. The first observance had blood on the door posts and they hit the ground running the next day! Then it changed and evolved to what was being observed in Jesus' day, and He changed it definitively - showing that He was the fulfillment and that for the believer the Lord' Supper is the Passover Feast.

Anything wrong with studying or even participating in an earlier form of the meal? No. But don't mistake that for the true passover. It is a shadow, and old form that has been replaced by substance, namely the Lord's Table.

And just as this was the highest holy day and greatest observance for the OT, now it is one of only two ordinances given to the church by her Lord. A proper understanding of the history of Passover should give us a new appreciation for observing it now in the Supper.

Phillip

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by pastorway
Anything wrong with studying or even participating in an earlier form of the meal? No. But don't mistake that for the true passover. It is a shadow, and old form that has been replaced by substance, namely the Lord's Table.

If you were invited to the home of an observant Jew to participate in their passover, would that be OK given that they attach religious significance to the event?

How would that be different than participating in an RC Mass?

Aren't they both a denial of the finished work of Christ?

I still fail to see why Christians would want to put on a "Christian Seder" other than as play acting. Certainly it has no religious significance. And if they do attach religious signifiance, isn't that a denial of Christ's work and the Supper He instituted and gave to His church?

 

[ReformedWretch]

Tom, I find myself thinking along the same lines as you here.

 

[ReformedWretch]

My favorite quote from this thread:

The Lords supper is our passover. Let us bring God glory through this alone. Let us elevate the supper and leave those things that were shadows of HIM yet to come. He has arrived, let us move forward!

 

[LadyFlynt]

Tom, I think you are getting to the ridiculous with "pedigrees" and other such non-sense. If you cared to know about the Passover and what in it is worthy of participating in it from a Christian standpoint then you would have ask and I would have posted that information. You are obviously ignoranant on the matter and prefer to remain that way. I also believe you to have an unreasonable bias and are intentionally making things more difficult than what they are (ie Resurrection Sunday, you KNEW what I was refering to and neither did you answer the question). Thirdly, you are sounding a bit sectarian. If it doesn't pass mustard with you then it is not worthy to even be considered to listened to. Apparently if a person disagrees with you on one point then you do not see fit to listen to ANYTHING they have to say (ie your comment on books).

Gentlemen, I am on my second day of having the flu (the reason I haven't been able to keep up with this thread right now) and really am not in the right mindset to keep at this.