toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
and he has an excellent point
PCA General Assembly in Dallas
- Thread starter Richard King
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and he has an excellent point
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
I can feel the tension here.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
How close does it look?
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Bryan Chapell begins the minority presentation, which I will summarize as he speaks:
We had a great chair. Ovation. Great debate, sometimes testy and some apologies.
Reference p. 137 - the minority report members, a large group, not all in favor of women deacons. Reads part of the minority report -- need a balance, reads 4 proposed names, 2 of which favor, and 2 opposed, no egalitarians, on women deacons. Summarizes the 4 positions.
We had a great chair. Ovation. Great debate, sometimes testy and some apologies.
Reference p. 137 - the minority report members, a large group, not all in favor of women deacons. Reads part of the minority report -- need a balance, reads 4 proposed names, 2 of which favor, and 2 opposed, no egalitarians, on women deacons. Summarizes the 4 positions.
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Summarizes some of the various approaches on deaconnesses, ordained or not.
Reads the mandate proposed for the study committee.
What does the Scripture say? Not public opinion.
What changes to the BCO might be considered for future presbytery overtures?
Offer pastoral advice to presbyteries.
Reads the mandate proposed for the study committee.
What does the Scripture say? Not public opinion.
What changes to the BCO might be considered for future presbytery overtures?
Offer pastoral advice to presbyteries.
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Funded through designated gifts through administrative committee.
A hard decision. Both reports are good reports.
The majority could have said no, but were sensitive, this needs to be discussed, but sthere are better ways. Accommodating and good language. Presbyteries work through these in their local context. Don't squash all commentary. There is a better way than Overture 9.
Why I prefer the minority report? Both boil down to -- have a study committee or not.
Appreciate the majority committee, discuss it yes, but the minority says yes, have a study committee. People of different opinions in the same room.
Why not talk? Slippery slope. Nobody is arguing for women in authoritative office. Solely as a service office. No slippery slope.
Those who disagree have already left.
Other reason -- want status quo. Some are operating in the margins, not to talk either.
Is is a waste of money -- how will the PCA practice church life together, has not been discussed for centuries.
A hard decision. Both reports are good reports.
The majority could have said no, but were sensitive, this needs to be discussed, but sthere are better ways. Accommodating and good language. Presbyteries work through these in their local context. Don't squash all commentary. There is a better way than Overture 9.
Why I prefer the minority report? Both boil down to -- have a study committee or not.
Appreciate the majority committee, discuss it yes, but the minority says yes, have a study committee. People of different opinions in the same room.
Why not talk? Slippery slope. Nobody is arguing for women in authoritative office. Solely as a service office. No slippery slope.
Those who disagree have already left.
Other reason -- want status quo. Some are operating in the margins, not to talk either.
Is is a waste of money -- how will the PCA practice church life together, has not been discussed for centuries.
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Both report recognize overtures are coming.
Study committee could give us good guidance, regardless of the position you take.
They have the church's respect. At least 3 of them are very good friends.
Ask the moderator to nominate a few more. Suggest give the 4th vote on the committee to one who sticks with the constitution as it is now.
Dr. Chapell concludes.
Study committee could give us good guidance, regardless of the position you take.
They have the church's respect. At least 3 of them are very good friends.
Ask the moderator to nominate a few more. Suggest give the 4th vote on the committee to one who sticks with the constitution as it is now.
Dr. Chapell concludes.
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Greco:
Analogize our nation's constitution. Amendments from local bodies.
The PCA has studied this issue extensively. It's part of PCA history. PCA is traditional on the role of women in church office.
Difficulties with minority report: suggests potential changes to the BCO -- an inappropriate issue. offer pastoral advice in committees, instead of presbyteries.
There is diversity of thinking in Reformed scholars, but on other matters too. We don't need study committees for such issues.
Analogize our nation's constitution. Amendments from local bodies.
The PCA has studied this issue extensively. It's part of PCA history. PCA is traditional on the role of women in church office.
Difficulties with minority report: suggests potential changes to the BCO -- an inappropriate issue. offer pastoral advice in committees, instead of presbyteries.
There is diversity of thinking in Reformed scholars, but on other matters too. We don't need study committees for such issues.
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Speaker in favor of minority report: Does not believe in women deacons.
Study committees discuss issues in culture. We do not model how to disagree in a Christlike manner. Observe in the blog-sphere what we're saying about each other.
We are talking in ways that are not edifying.
How do we disagree?
Not by exchanging information (inaudible).
Study committees discuss issues in culture. We do not model how to disagree in a Christlike manner. Observe in the blog-sphere what we're saying about each other.
We are talking in ways that are not edifying.
How do we disagree?
Not by exchanging information (inaudible).
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Second speaker, against the minority report:
Easy to offend without even trying. Don't want study committee. Deal with these issues; but study committee is not the way to do it.
We can offend without even trying. Study committee -- sorry for the way the church deals with women -- study committee will not fix that problem.
Assembly debates over a study committee. We should debate the outcome.
How to fully love half the body of Christ -- repent and believe.
Easy to offend without even trying. Don't want study committee. Deal with these issues; but study committee is not the way to do it.
We can offend without even trying. Study committee -- sorry for the way the church deals with women -- study committee will not fix that problem.
Assembly debates over a study committee. We should debate the outcome.
How to fully love half the body of Christ -- repent and believe.
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Point of order -- standing vote previously was irregular. It was an improper count.
Moderator says there will be no ruling on that.
Speaker for the minority report: Both speakers appreciated.
Significant churches in the PCA have or have had deaconnesses. if the language is not ambiguous, we are cowardly or slack, or there is some room for this possibility.
If a study committee will lead to further divisions, then it's already there, and that never stopped us in the past. Not a good argument not to do something.
No secret this minority report comes as a result of the desires of several young pastors in the PCA. I'm 50 years old, and Frank Barker, etc. still think I'm young. We never got involved like these young men have. We need to celebrate that they dive in to define who we are.
Moderator -- time is up.
Moderator says there will be no ruling on that.
Speaker for the minority report: Both speakers appreciated.
Significant churches in the PCA have or have had deaconnesses. if the language is not ambiguous, we are cowardly or slack, or there is some room for this possibility.
If a study committee will lead to further divisions, then it's already there, and that never stopped us in the past. Not a good argument not to do something.
No secret this minority report comes as a result of the desires of several young pastors in the PCA. I'm 50 years old, and Frank Barker, etc. still think I'm young. We never got involved like these young men have. We need to celebrate that they dive in to define who we are.
Moderator -- time is up.
HaigLaw
Puritan Board Sophomore
Moderator rules - - another 5 minutes of debate.
Moderator asks whether those waiting are for or against.
All are for the minority.
Moderator keeps looking for someone against it.
Finds one. Another speaker against: Pleased we have the minority report.
Dave Coffin, Potomac Presbytery: well persuaded, men who differ on the point, but wonderful unanimity on Scriptures alone, rule of practice. Tremendous demonstration of what we share, on the committee.
Well framed, argued graciously. But, opposed, concur with the chair. Asks pastoral advice on appropriate range of practices. Couched gently. Kinds of questions asked. Gently, but a threat to constitutional order. Presbyteries are courts of original jurisdiction, on appropriate ranges of practices, subject to review and control by higher courts.
Moderator rules - time out.
Speaker in favor of minority report: When a presbytery asks for help, we should not tell them it's already clear.
Specific questions not answered by majority report.
Vastly preferable to gain the best minds of the church, not just one presbytery, not merely BCO amendments.
There is a real need in the PCA now, should not be dealt with in bits and pieces.
Moderator -- extend debate another 5 minutes?
Moderator rules, vote was to not extend debate.
Moderator asks whether those waiting are for or against.
All are for the minority.
Moderator keeps looking for someone against it.
Finds one. Another speaker against: Pleased we have the minority report.
Dave Coffin, Potomac Presbytery: well persuaded, men who differ on the point, but wonderful unanimity on Scriptures alone, rule of practice. Tremendous demonstration of what we share, on the committee.
Well framed, argued graciously. But, opposed, concur with the chair. Asks pastoral advice on appropriate range of practices. Couched gently. Kinds of questions asked. Gently, but a threat to constitutional order. Presbyteries are courts of original jurisdiction, on appropriate ranges of practices, subject to review and control by higher courts.
Moderator rules - time out.
Speaker in favor of minority report: When a presbytery asks for help, we should not tell them it's already clear.
Specific questions not answered by majority report.
Vastly preferable to gain the best minds of the church, not just one presbytery, not merely BCO amendments.
There is a real need in the PCA now, should not be dealt with in bits and pieces.
Moderator -- extend debate another 5 minutes?
Moderator rules, vote was to not extend debate.
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