Pope Francis and Homosexuality

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py3ak

They're stalling and plotting against me
Staff member
Torres, it seems to me, skips over the reality of una ley de convivencia civil. What sort of law is being called for? It's a law that involves more than one person (or it wouldn't be convivencia) in a civil situation that is recognized by law. It wouldn't be marriage on the RC understanding of marriage as a sacrament, but it's a way to extend the civil benefits and privileges of marriage to same-sex couples.
 

Pilgrim

Puritanboard Commissioner
Whatever spin ends up being put on this latest utterance by a Jesuit Pope, they've sure come a long way from "Error has no rights."
 

Phil D.

Puritan Board Junior
Cardinal Raymond Burke, a Vatican canon lawyer and leader of its conservative faction, is emphasizing this is PF's personal opinion, and then slaps it down about as hard as one might imagine he could get away with. His interpretation of the remarks in question are also useful here (he's an American).

Pope Francis has declared that persons in the homosexual condition, as children of God, “have a right to have a family” and that “no one should be thrown out or be made unhappy because of it.” Moreover, they write that he has declared: “What we have to create is a civil union. In this way they will be legally covered. I have defended this.”​
...​
It is a source of deepest sadness and pressing pastoral concern that the private opinions reported with so much emphasis by the press and attributed to Pope Francis do not correspond to the constant teaching of the Church, as it is expressed in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and is guarded, protected and interpreted by the Magisterium. Equally sad and concerning is the turmoil, confusion, and error they cause among the Catholic faithful, as is the scandal they cause, in general, by giving the totally false impression that the Catholic Church has had a change of course, that is, has changed its perennial teaching regarding such fundamental and critical questions.​
His full statement is here.
 
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retroGRAD3

Puritan Board Freshman
Cardinal Raymond Burke, a Vatican canon lawyer and leader of its conservative faction, is emphasizing this is PF's personal opinion, and then slaps it down about as hard as one might imagine he could get away with. His interpretation of the remarks in question are also useful here (he's an American).

Pope Francis has declared that persons in the homosexual condition, as children of God, “have a right to have a family” and that “no one should be thrown out or be made unhappy because of it.” Moreover, they write that he has declared: “What we have to create is a civil union. In this way they will be legally covered. I have defended this.”​
...​
It is a source of deepest sadness and pressing pastoral concern that the private opinions reported with so much emphasis by the press and attributed to Pope Francis do not correspond to the constant teaching of the Church, as it is expressed in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and is guarded, protected and interpreted by the Magisterium. Equally sad and concerning is the turmoil, confusion, and error they cause among the Catholic faithful, as is the scandal they cause, in general, by giving the totally false impression that the Catholic Church has had a change of course, that is, has changed its perennial teaching regarding such fundamental and critical questions.​
His full statement is here.
Just more smoke and mirrors from Rome pretending they have never changed course in the past before. What a tragic church Rome is. To claim it has a sacred tradition which keeps then from ever be able to truly reform. So, throughout it's history, just continue to do things like this. My guess is many will move into eastern orthodox and God willing, many will come to a true church like the reformed tradition, that is, come to Jesus through faith alone.
 

B.L.

Puritan Board Sophomore
Just more smoke and mirrors from Rome pretending they have never changed course in the past before. What a tragic church Rome is. To claim it has a sacred tradition which keeps then from ever be able to truly reform. So, throughout it's history, just continue to do things like this. My guess is many will move into eastern orthodox and God willing, many will come to a true church like the reformed tradition, that is, come to Jesus through faith alone.

I hear you and don't disagree. I think equally sad though is the state of our own churches where our "Protestant Popes" confuse the faithful by speaking unclearly on matters the scriptures and our confessions speak clearly on. There are ordained elders in the largest denomination of NAPARC who wouldn't disagree with anything the Pope said....

Our house needs a thorough cleaning as well.
 

Phil D.

Puritan Board Junior
Just more smoke and mirrors from Rome pretending they have never changed course in the past before.
Cardinal Burke has an established record as an outspoken conservative with a willingness to buck the system. He was appointed Cardinal by PBXVI in his attempt to pack the curia with as many traditionalists as possible. That an organization as old and large as the RCC has dissenters and anti-factions within its ranks is not at all surprising. Church history has demonstrated this over and over again.
 

retroGRAD3

Puritan Board Freshman
I hear you and don't disagree. I think equally sad though is the state of our own churches where our "Protestant Popes" confuse the faithful by speaking unclearly on matters the scriptures and our confessions speak clearly on. There are ordained elders in the largest denomination of NAPARC who wouldn't disagree with anything the Pope said....

Our house needs a thorough cleaning as well.
Oh yes sir! If we are talking about mainline protestants and broadly evangelical Christians, even some reformed, that situation is an absolute train wreck. There is much valid criticism against protestants today. But as we know, there is the visible church and the invisible church.
 

Susan777

Puritan Board Sophomore
Cardinal Burke has an established record as an outspoken conservative with a willingness to buck the system. He was appointed Cardinal by PBXVI in his attempt to pack the curia with as many traditionalists as possible. That an organization as old and large as the RCC has dissenters and anti-factions within its ranks is not at all surprising.
Burke only “gently” bucks the system. He’s careful to stay within bounds, not following through on the Dubia threat. Many see him as cowardly because of this. Only Vigano and Strickland have any conservative backbone. It’s estimated that fewer than 10% of Catholics could be considered conservative in their moral or theological views. Yet these trads cling to their dogmas fiercely. Much if not most is simply arrogance and a refusal to acknowledge the reality of Rome’s disintegration. Of course, they look at Protestantism and it’s no wonder they are repelled. In my occasional forays onto their websites I can only counsel them to read the Scriptures and trust in Christ. Occasionally I get a warm response.
 

B.L.

Puritan Board Sophomore
It’s estimated that fewer than 10% of Catholics could be considered conservative in their moral or theological views. Yet these trads cling to their dogmas fiercely. Much if not most is simply arrogance and a refusal to acknowledge the reality of Rome’s disintegration.

I wonder what percentage of protestants today could be considered conservative in their social or theological views? The numbers probably aren't much better than that 1 in 10 statistic of the RCC.

I think the "rad trads" of the RCC aren't entirely different from those who identify as confessionally Reformed...both are trying to preserve a heritage that is crumbling...only there are collectively more of them and fewer of us. Everyone recognizes their own houses are on fire. The ecclesiology of the rad trad gives them nowhere to retreat to...our ecclesiology leads us to flee and splinter into new micro-denominations. If I had to reckon a guess I'd imagine many protestants would view those of us on the PB as being guilty of arrogance as well.
 

retroGRAD3

Puritan Board Freshman
I wonder what percentage of protestants today could be considered conservative in their social or theological views? The numbers probably aren't much better than that 1 in 10 statistic of the RCC.

I think the "rad trads" of the RCC aren't entirely different from those who identify as confessionally Reformed...both are trying to preserve a heritage that is crumbling...only there are collectively more of them and fewer of us. Everyone recognizes their own houses are on fire. The ecclesiology of the rad trad gives them nowhere to retreat to...our ecclesiology leads us to flee and splinter into new micro-denominations. If I had to reckon a guess I'd imagine many protestants would view those of us on the PB as being guilty of arrogance as well.
No doubt there are problems with many of the "professing Christian" world. As for the arrogance, let us check ourselves frequently. I have been guilty of pride many times in my life. However, it is likely the charge is going to be slander in many cases. The true church will always be persecuted because men love the darkness rather than the light. But let us continue to preach the true gospel anyway as God will have his people.
 

Susan777

Puritan Board Sophomore
I wonder what percentage of protestants today could be considered conservative in their social or theological views? The numbers probably aren't much better than that 1 in 10 statistic of the RCC.

I think the "rad trads" of the RCC aren't entirely different from those who identify as confessionally Reformed...both are trying to preserve a heritage that is crumbling...only there are collectively more of them and fewer of us. Everyone recognizes their own houses are on fire. The ecclesiology of the rad trad gives them nowhere to retreat to...our ecclesiology leads us to flee and splinter into new micro-denominations. If I had to reckon a guess I'd imagine many protestants would view those of us on the PB as being guilty of arrogance as well.
I agree with you about the dismal state of Protestantism, although polls do show significant differences in acceptance of same-sex marriage for example. But we are beset with the same problems and I am truly sympathetic to their situation. I should have been clearer about the source of arrogance. I was thinking about the doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulls salus which I encounter frequently. Without connection to the visible Roman communion (The Church that Jesus Built), one is simply outside the possibility of salvation. Lumen Gentium softened this dogma considerably but it is held by almost all traditional Catholics . Protestants of all stripes are dismissed as mere heretics. Of course, when I comment on a Trad site I don’t argue doctrine or present historical evidence. No polemics, treated respectfully. But I point them to Christ and Apostolic teaching. Some trads seem open to this. God’s Word is so powerful.
 
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