Pope Francis dead

[clawrence9008]

Thought I would put this on everyone’s radar.

The NYT article does make a good point: “[The absence of Francis] also leaves the church’s cardinals with a critical decision: whether to choose a new pope who will follow his welcoming, global approach or to restore the more doctrinaire path of his predecessors.”

 

[retroGRAD3]

Francis packed the court with his people. The next pope will likely be even worse than Francis.
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Maybe we will also see the tradcath's break away at this point as well.

 

[clawrence9008]

Francis packed the court with his people. The next pope will likely be even worse than Francis.

Do you mean worse in a liberal/universalist direction like Francis or worse in a conservative direction?

 

[retroGRAD3]

Do you mean worse in a liberal/universalist direction like Francis or worse in a conservative direction?

Good question/point. I believe in a universalist liberal direction

 

[dsanch1120]

Now is a good time to pray for the direction of the church. Francis was a change in the status quo. I think that with the selection of his replacement, we’ll know whether that change in the status quo was an anomaly or the beginning of a new RCC. We should be praying that the next pope will steer the church toward the truth

 

[ZackF]

Thought I would put this on everyone’s radar.

The NYT article does make a good point: “[The absence of Francis] also leaves the church’s cardinals with a critical decision: whether to choose a new pope who will follow his welcoming, global approach or to restore the more doctrinaire path of his predecessors.”

A loaded framing if there ever was one.

 

[erickinho1bra]

Now is a good time to pray for the direction of the church. Francis was a change in the status quo. I think that with the selection of his replacement, we’ll know whether that change in the status quo was an anomaly or the beginning of a new RCC. We should be praying that the next pope will steer the church toward the truth

How glorious it would be if whatever new pope they install takes the RCC a step closer to orthodox Christianity! It's unlikely due to their hardness of heart but God is greater than our hearts!

 

[Wilhelmus à Broccoli]

"The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."
-London Baptist Confession of Faith, 26.4 (see also: 25.6 in the WCF)

Our tradition confesses that the very concept of a pope is contrary to the mind of Christ. In fact, the pope presently takes for himself the titles of the Trinity: the father of all true Christians, the head of the Church, and the vicar of Christ. A pope who led Rome far enough towards truth that we could confess him as a brother and his institution as a church of Christ would no longer be recognizable as a pope, according to Rome's tradition.

I almost wonder if we ought rather to pray for a pope who is even "worse" than Francis (i.e., more globalist or "liberal" in his attitudes) in order to drive the tradcaths who left broad evangelicalism in search of truth and tradition back towards the pure gospel.

In any event, the best thing that we could ask of God for the next pope is his true conversion and public repentance.

"I say it without the least hesitation: whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others."
-St. Gregory the Great

 

[StevieG]

I think the reaction to Francis' death has shown how much prayer the protestant church needs right now. We shouldn't delight in death, but a lot of reaction has honestly made it sound as if the RCC is just another denomination rather than a church which has left the Gospel, fallen into error and is leading many astray.

We really need to pray for the help of the Holy Spirit to lead people back to his truth.

 

[erickinho1bra]

I think the reaction to Francis' death has shown how much prayer the protestant church needs right now. We shouldn't delight in death, but a lot of reaction has honestly made it sound as if the RCC is just another denomination rather than a church which has left the Gospel, fallen into error and is leading many astray.

We really need to pray for the help of the Holy Spirit to lead people back to his truth.

This may not be the right thread for this but I think many of the Reformers, Reformed Scholastics, and modern Reformed people see the RCC as a real denomination of Christianity, albeit with a lot of errors that cloud the gospel (just like other denominations like IFBs, Charismatics, Pentecostals, etc.).

 

[TheInquirer]

Several of our confessions call the Pope the antichrist yet it seems that very few, in word or practice, hold to that conviction.

 

[michael_topple]

Several of our confessions call the Pope the antichrist yet it seems that very few, in word or practice, hold to that conviction.

Yes I've been shocked to see this in recent days.

 

[pianoviolin]

Several of our confessions call the Pope the antichrist yet it seems that very few, in word or practice, hold to that conviction.

I believe the American version of the WCF doesn't include the Pope being the antichrist, at least in the PCA and OPC.

 

[Joshua]

It’s a deadly matter endeavoring to usurp Christ’s office whether pope, prince, or pauper.

 

[pianoviolin]

Yes I've been shocked to see this in recent days.

Beside ignorance of the chasm between Protestants (yes, all Protestants, including Lutherans, Reformed Anglicans, and even Arminians/Pentecostals) and Rome, a lot of it is due to the declining influence of evangelicalism in politics (there are more Catholics than Protestants in the Trump cabinet), the fall of the historic mainline churches, and large-scale migration of Roman Catholics into the country.

When less than half of Americans identify as Protestant today (whether mainline or evangelical), politics and activism will necessarily produce (civil) alliance with Roman Catholics, agnostics, atheists, etc. (NOTE: I am not trying to start a debate whether this is morally right or not, or on issues of the Church and State, Christian nationalism, etc.). Less than 20% of New York State, 25% of California, and 50% of Texas and Florida identify as evangelical Protestant. Update: Only 10% of NYS, 16% of California, 22% of Florida and 27% of Texas identify as Evangelical Protestant, as of the 2023 Pew Religious Landscape Study. Even Mississippi is only 42% evangelical Protestant (the number jumps to 71% if you include historically black (20%) and mainline (9%) protestants).

 

[michael_topple]

Beside ignorance of the chasm between Protestants (yes, all Protestants, including Lutherans, Reformed Anglicans, and even Arminians/Pentecostals) and Rome, a lot of it is due to the declining influence of evangelicalism in politics (there are more Catholics than Protestants in the Trump cabinet), the fall of the historic mainline churches, and large-scale migration of Roman Catholics into the country.

When less than half of Americans identify as Protestant today (whether mainline or evangelical), politics and activism will necessarily produce (civil) alliance with Roman Catholics, agnostics, atheists, etc. (NOTE: I am not trying to start a debate whether this is morally right or not, or on issues of the Church and State, Christian nationalism, etc.). Less than 20% of New York State, 25% of California, and 50% of Texas and Florida identify as evangelical Protestant.

Yes this makes sense : thanks.
I guess my greatest shock has been folk who have subscribed to the WCF etc, publicly mourning Francis' death, almost treating him as 'just another clergyman'.
This sentence, taken from a BBC News article, says it all:.

 

[retroGRAD3]

Yes this makes sense : thanks.
I guess my greatest shock has been folk who have subscribed to the WCF etc, publicly mourning Francis' death, almost treating him as 'just another clergyman'.
This sentence, taken from a BBC News article, says it all:.

Wow

 

[Steve Curtis]

This may not be the right thread for this but I think many of the Reformers, Reformed Scholastics, and modern Reformed people see the RCC as a real denomination of Christianity, albeit with a lot of errors that cloud the gospel (just like other denominations like IFBs, Charismatics, Pentecostals, etc.).

Names, please?

 

[Edward]

Well, Francis did have some traditionalist RCs ready to agree that maybe that pope was the antichrist. So he was working to bring folks closer to a part of the traditional Westminster Confession.

JPII tried to blur the lines between RCs and Protestants. At least the former Luftabwehr man that followed him didn't muddy his RC message. Then Francis came along and attacked the true believers. A man used by God to undermine the Roman church.

 

[Edward]

and 50% of Texas and Florida identify as evangelical Protestant.

I'm surprised that the number is that high. 40% of the Texas population is Hispanic, almost all of them RC (last time I looked it up, half the masses at the RC church a mile and a half down the street were in Spanish). Add in the while RCs, the Mormons, the Hindus, Muslims and Buddists, Oneness Pentecostals, the prosperity gospelists, and I'm not buying the 50% number. Probably closer to 30%.

And AI agrees with me as to the Evangelical Protestants. I think they are low on RCs. :

• Evangelical Protestant: 27%
• Mainline Protestant: 10%
• • Catholic: 22%
  • Historically Black Protestant: 5%
  • Latter-day Saint (Mormon): 1%
  • Other Christian: <1%

 

[pianoviolin]

I'm surprised that the number is that high. 40% of the Texas population is Hispanic, almost all of them RC (last time I looked it up, half the masses at the RC church a mile and a half down the street were in Spanish). Add in the while RCs, the Mormons, the Hindus, Muslims and Buddists, Oneness Pentecostals, the prosperity gospelists, and I'm not buying the 50% number. Probably closer to 30%.

And AI agrees with me as to the Evangelical Protestants. I think they are low on RCs. :

• Evangelical Protestant: 27%
• Mainline Protestant: 10%
• • Catholic: 22%
  • Historically Black Protestant: 5%
  • Latter-day Saint (Mormon): 1%
  • Other Christian: <1%

I think I might have looked at the wrong numbers, I'll revise my original post.
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I think I might have looked at the wrong numbers, I'll revise my original post.

On related note, it seems like Protestantism is spreading quickly in Latin America, where an entrenched and highly syncretistic form of folk Catholicism has predominated for the past four to five centuries. (On the flip side, most of the evangelical growth is coming from Pentecostal or hyper-charismatic groups).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1912668132310687906

Honduras is now plurality Protestant!

 

[michael_topple]

Well, Francis did have some traditionalist RCs ready to agree that maybe that pope was the antichrist. So he was working to bring folks closer to a part of the traditional Westminster Confession.

 

[Andrew35]

What the top thread looked when I loaded the site just now, due to unfortunate combo of title + response.

I was like, "Hey, I'm no fan either, but really! Show a little kindness!"

 

[michael_topple]

What the top thread looked when I loaded the site just now, due to unfortunate combo of title + response.

I was like, "Hey, I'm no fan either, but really! Show a little kindness!"

View attachment 11936

Ooops!

 

[Stephen L Smith]

A helpful discussion from Justin Peters ministries

 

[alexanderjames]

When chatting with my non-religious brother he commented on the pomp and expense around the Pope's death. And seeing the world's response in the news to him brings a certain Scripture to mind - James 4:4
I saw another comment from Roman Catholics in Gaza which contained the words "we're like orphans now", but what does the Lord Jesus say to His own? John 14:18
How they square their beliefs with the word of God I do not know.

What direction do we think the RCC is likely to go in now?

 

[StevieG]

When chatting with my non-religious brother he commented on the pomp and expense around the Pope's death. And seeing the world's response in the news to him brings a certain Scripture to mind - James 4:4
I saw another comment from Roman Catholics in Gaza which contained the words "we're like orphans now", but what does the Lord Jesus say to His own? John 14:18
How they square their beliefs with the word of God I do not know.

What direction do we think the RCC is likely to go in now?

I believe that a lot of the cardinals who will be voting for the next pope were people who supported Francis and were put in position by him. It would be a real surprise if they don't look for someone to follow in his footsteps. With how much the world loves the message of inclusiveness, it is no wonder they loved a universalist and more of the same seems likely.
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A helpful discussion from Justin Peters ministries

Sadly too many are unwilling to hear the truth, even in churches, but this video does a good job of highlighting the reality of the supposed gospel message that Francis promoted, which ultimately is no gospel message at all. I did like the bit where they took Francis' teaching to its logical conclusion and asked what is the point of being in the RCC if everyone including muslims and atheists can expect to be saved in the end.

 

[dsanch1120]

I believe that a lot of the cardinals who will be voting for the next pope were people who supported Francis and were put in position by him. It would be a real surprise if they don't look for someone to follow in his footsteps. With how much the world loves the message of inclusiveness, it is no wonder they loved a universalist and more of the same seems likely.

The court has certainly been stacked.
I don’t think a traditionalist pope is likely. The next pope will probably have similar views as Francis. I think the debate will be over taking on a pope who wants to continue changing the status-quo or is happy with things as Francis left them.

 

[pianoviolin]

Sadly too many are unwilling to hear the truth, even in churches, but this video does a good job of highlighting the reality of the supposed gospel message that Francis promoted, which ultimately is no gospel message at all. I did like the bit where they took Francis' teaching to its logical conclusion and asked what is the point of being in the RCC if everyone including muslims and atheists can expect to be saved in the end.

I found this article from Michael Horton to be particularly relevant: "What Still Keeps Us Apart?", with the following passages particularly relevant to the post-Vatican II RCC

By making peace with modernity, Rome embraced the Enlightenment, not the Reformation, and that means that conservative Catholics who are suspicious of the affects of Vatican II are actually closer to evangelicals than to their own theologians. Rome may appear to be moving closer to Protestantism, but those who are guided by the historic evangelical convictions must regard the change as negative rather than positive, especially for Roman Catholics, if liberal Protestantism is the partner.

and the purity of the Gospel:

We must remember that it is not we who anathematized Rome, but Rome that anathematized the gospel and thereby anathematized itself. The issue is not even really the condemnation of Protestants (those wounds are easy to heal) but the anathema against the gospel. The evangelicals who remain authentic witnesses to the gospel of grace alone through faith alone, therefore, are carrying on the Catholic faith. Just prior to the Council of Trent, there were many—including cardinals—who accepted the material principle (that is, the gospel) as the Reformation restated it. In fact, there was still much hope on both sides that a unity could be achieved. But when the Council of Trent repeatedly declared that those who believed that their only hope for salvation was faith in Christ now fell under the church's ban, Rome became a schismatic body. It divided itself from historic Christianity by denying, in unmistakable language, that which we as evangelical believers insist upon as "the gospel." This, of course, does not mean that there are not many justified souls in the Church of Rome. As Calvin said, "There is still a church among her," but she herself is not a true visible church. She has denied those marks that are essential to the being of a church: the preaching of the true gospel and the true administration of the sacraments. Apart from these marks, there can be no true visible congregation and, indeed, no formal communion.

This is a very sad business and difficult to accept, much less to defend. It is difficult because of the many personal sympathies I have with my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. We must not confuse Rome's general apostasy from the visible church with the apostasy of individual Roman Catholic believers. We may have fellowship with Roman Catholics who affirm the gospel, even though we may not have fellowship with the Church of Rome. In spite of the ecumenical aspirations we all share, there is a higher authority to which one must answer. Better for the church to have peace in the next life than in this one. Better to proclaim the true gospel, with earthly divisions, than to abandon the gospel for spurious, humanly created unity.

 

[DanSSwing]

Several of our confessions call the Pope the antichrist yet it seems that very few, in word or practice, hold to that conviction.

I've never seen that conclusion arrived at as the result of an actual exegesis of 2 Thessalonians, 1 John, or Revelation. That's probably why this has become the standard exception to the LBC. It came from current events rather than from Scripture. As much as I love the reformers, I'm afraid they were not immune to newspaper eschatology.