Purpose Driven Worship Defined

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Don't mistake me here Patrick. I think heretic's should be given there own type of attention. Just not that of learning under them or gleaning any truth that may happen to be within there teaching.

blade
 
Purpose-Driven principles are best explained with two diagrams you can scribble on a napkin. One is the baseball diamond, used to explain the flow of church ministry in a person's life. Vast crowds attend church, but they reach first base, Membership, only by completing Class 101 and signing a covenant of commitment to Christ and the church. Second base is Maturity, reached through another class (201) featuring a covenant of commitment to a daily quiet time, tithing, and a small group. Third base is Ministry, in which members commit to serving actively in the church. They are interviewed and placed in one of dozens of thriving church ministries. Home base is Mission, in which Christians commit to the cause of evangelism. At the center of the diamond is Magnification, which stands for worship. How can one reach maturity before committing to mission or ministry? Chalk it up to the Baptist penchant for alliteration. Purpose-Driven churches make worship the starting point"”it's where unchurched people experience the church and decide to commit. It's also the end, since everything centers on glorifying God. (emphasis mine - JDL)

....................................................................

Marshall Shelley, executive editor of Leadership Journal, sums up Purpose-Driven as a "theology and system of postconversion life." Seeker models pay attention to the unchurched mindset, but Purpose-Driven takes up evangelism, discipleship, fellowship, service, and worship"”all emphasized separately by various authors and movements"”and systematically integrates them into the life of the church.

........................................

This year Rick Warren preached at 11 of the 12 Easter services held by the church, during which more than 2,400 people made commitments to Christ.


Saddleback practices church discipline"”removing hundreds of members for nonparticipation or for unrepented sin.


Saddleback requires all 175 full-time paid staff members to do at least one overseas mission project and to take a 26-week course in systematic theology.


All 13 Saddleback pastors have seminary degrees.


Saddleback launched its first daughter church after its first year of existence; it has started at least one church every year since, many among immigrant groups in Southern California.


Saddleback intends to double its attendance to 30,000 while not building a worship center larger than its current 3,000-seat auditorium. Plans call for multiple smaller venues using a videotaped sermon and live music in different styles. The church, Warren suggests, will be like a Cineplex, where you never feel late because there is always a service about to begin somewhere in the complex.
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Ok, I read both articles - I am not familiar with this Cho fellow - my bad - but the article seemed to be discussing using the Internet for ministry?

The other article was fairly mundane - I pulled a couple quotes from the article.

Is there an article that details out the heresy that RW is promulgating?

Or an interview with an "approved" church leader and RW?

Looking for some help, here...
 
i think you misunderstood me I was saying he is highly influenced and has associated with heretical teachers. That much should be ascertained.

blade
 
Yes. it seem's that for you it's ok if a Pastor is influenced and associates with known false teacher's? Is that a correct statement?

If you read the article about RW from christiainity today you would see he took classes at Scheulers school and they were highly influencial towards the formation of his movement. As well he is in contact with Hybels from Willow Creek who is a big promoter of seeker sensitive garbage.

I believe Robin made a post awhile back about how PPJ@,Mother Tereasa, were big Christians in his book. Even though PPJ@ is a blatent heretic and Mother Tereasa denied the faith in her diary published after her death.

So if that does'nt bother you then by all mean' join the crowd.

blade
 
So...St.Augustine's teachings should be disregarded since he studied and utilized paganistic philisophical methods?

You know he was also a Manichean, too, for a while?

You know Paul was influence by Greek philosophy, too, yes?

What about Christ and the tax collectors and sinners?

You don't think it is possible to test everything and keep the good?

[Edited on 12-5-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
JD,
I think your over exagerating here. You mention Paul, Jesus, and Augustine having associated with unbeleivers or false teachers. Now if you reread what I posted you would understand that I'm not saying Warren can not study these false teachings in order to defend against them.

I'm saying that Warren has associated with them in the WRONG way. He has been influneced by them which is apparent in his method's. There is a difference between Augustine being a manichean and not being one and writting against it.

I apologize if I came off to harsh.

blade
 
It's ok - I am fairly passionate about extending grace to those whom at least are making an impact and I do not think it is our place to judge a brother that we have not gone up to and said - "Brother, you have offended me."

Maybe I am just concerned that we look at all the reasons why NOT to support our kindred as they prepare a winsome environment and the things I do read on their website, while it may be elementary, is not error filled.

It seems that we are so "zealous" here to combat error that we see it in everything around us - we begin a process of endless regression that peels away our unity bit by bit until the remnant is a distillation of applied Law - binding our Liberty in Christ.

Every expression of Liberty is NOT the path to the slippery slope toward license and heresy.

So my point was: Associating with sinners and trying to test everything and keep the good within bounds is not necessarily an indicator of heresy - it can be the pathway to growth or the doorway to righteousness and forgiveness.

BTW - Thanks! :D :up:

[Edited on 12-6-2005 by jdlongmire]

[Edited on 12-6-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
JD,
I think it's best I just leave this where it is at. Me personally would not use warren's material due to his 'influences'. unfortunately I'm in circumstane's where I have to put with such thing's. But I've got myslef to work on before I can envangelize the world.

blade
 
Hey, JD,

Here are some references for your inspection.

There is a growing body of evidence and literature forming about many serious problems with Warren's theology. Actually, what is happening is the meanings of concepts and words he uses are gradually coming to light. It's been tough to discern him because there's been so much ambiguity and RW is expert and not allowing himself to be subject to direct accountability.

This article is well done, explaining the problem with RW's portrayal of Jesus as God/Man - hypostatic union.

http://www.atrueandfaithfulwitness.com/fork.htm

Here's another site that has a sound and thorough explanation of how PDL twists, overstates, obscures Scripture's accurate meanings:

http://www.purposeverses.com/

A preview of a solid analysis book (due out '06) on how RW "redefines" Christianity:

http://www.challies.com/archives/001478.php

These are only a few...but if you do a search on the web for words like: "Rick Warren false teacher Purpose Driven problems heresy" a host of references show up.

I agree with mercy and restraint in judging - however, the damages are surfacing daily. Please extend some patience as you examine these reports, OK?

On another note....beginning in Exodus, God lays down a clear model for how He demands He be worshipped. The idea that we have freedom to emote and make-up whatever "style" desireable to bring before God as worship is erroneous and sinful. (You DID know this, right?) ;)

:book2:

r.
 
JD,

Again, my, and many others, objections are not an attempt to "look for the bad rather than the good" but, frankly, not finding much good in what we find.

I've read some things from RW that would cause me to conclude he's probably really sincere. He even subscribes to Modern Reformation so he's probably elect. :)

I must, however, discern his work by its influence, at large, on the broader Evangelical community. That's what's at issue - his written work and its influence and not the man or his particular Church.

Does the modern Church need any more "how to reach out", "how to create dynamic worship", "how to empower ministries", and a host of other books like them? People keep looking at the symptom of modern Evangelicalism that people are self-centered and not active in Ministry or vibrant in life and so they keep on coming up with practical ideas or steps on how to achieve that.

What they are missing is the HEART of the issue. The pulpits are no longer transforming people. The Word and the Gospel are not central to worship. When my in-laws visited our OPC Church in Temecula a few years back they said: "That was a good service and a good sermon but I really want more worship in Church." I didn't need them to explain it to me because I used to be the worship leader of the Church they still go to and believed the same thing at one time. They were looking for that 40 minute existential event that would cause them to emotionally free themselves and connect to God for 40 minutes. The preaching of the Word was not worship to them and I can understand why based on the Church they go to - the Gospel is never preached. How can you experience God without the Gospel? This problem is EPIDEMIC.

Does RW's book really contribute to the solution of the problem? No. It adds to it. It just provides a Church hungry for methods to find more methods. It provides a Church with symptoms of decay to stave of decay with better methods that band aid over the decay.

If RW was serious about helping the Church at large, and understood the problem of the Church at large, he would be writing a book about the centrality of the Atonement. That's where the tenor needs to be.

If I was a modern-day John Calvin worried about idolatry and how I could really Reform people back to getting some balance in Churches today then I would temporarily outlaw all bright ideas to growth and dynamism for a decade. Just like medieval Christians were addicted to statues and stained-glass windows and caused them to slip back into old patterns of idolatry, the modern Church almost needs a diet of methods for a while to start focusing on the Gospel to get it back into some sort of balance.

In the PDL, Rick Warren states that the biggest problem in modern Evangelicalism is that Christians aren't serving enough. BAH! The problem is the Gospel, lack of service is a symptom. Rick Warren only continues to exacerbate the symptoms by writing more books that take up time that ought to be focused on the REAL problem.
 
The problem is the Gospel, lack of service is a symptom
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Exactly!

At length what ends up happening in any church or nation of churches in which the Gospel is "lost" among moralism and law only (read reduced law as if we can do it) ,will worship, emotionalism, or other similar approaches is the development of two Christians. The highly successful self deceived who look down upon the others condescendingly. And group two the despairing who in some cases are driven to even suicidal thoughts if not actions. This is inevitable when the old Adam is fed and begins to afresh think he is pulling it off, especially if we say it is empowered by grace. The mask of hypocrisy comes on and suddenly we are not a group of mutual sinners under grace but the successful Christian versus the unsuccessful Christian if he/she is a Christian at all.

This fundamental bi-level Christianity happens in every single case of sans Gospel. Jugdmental behaior begins as the clicks develop and then subtle whisperings ensue, "Well so and so doesn't come often enough on Wednesday nights and he/she doesn't study as much as 'our group'". Or, "So and so does do this or that" with the implication "like we do". Good works over time become a narrow list (which proves works are being glorified and not the Gospel), NEVER given in Scripture and if you don't hit the list, well maybe your not a good/spiritual or Christian at all. I've seen it every single time. And I've been that good works lawyer myself in the past.

At the end of the day the battle never really changes in ANY generation, it is a constant battle for the Gospel.

A co-worker friend of mine whom I've spoken the Gospel to several times and happens to be a muslem one time told me, "We believe that Jesus is a good teacher from God too." What in the end is the difference between that and what is behind "WWJD"? Substantially, nothing at all.

I never tire of this quote from Machen its like a breath of fresh air and power for the next day of struggles, "What I need first is not exhortation but a Gospel. Not directions for saving myself but knowledge of how God has saved me. Have you any good news? That's the only question I have of you. I know your exhortations, they will not help me. But if anything has been done to save me will you just tell me the facts."

We have to be aware, keenly aware, that due to our fallen Adam in us that the number ONE eisogetic idea that we have the strongest tendancy to bring to the Sacred text is our old man's desire for law/works/fruit whereby we may in some part justify and sanctify ourselves. Our blindness to our own "glory" is our greatest hinderance in reading and grasping Scripture. Or as Christ said, "You search the Scriptures and think that by them you have life, but it is these that continually bear witness of Me."

L
 
No - the problem is that we have forgotten that we have kindred out there with different measures of faith and that the church is like a great banquet.

At the banquet you have infants, children and adults.

If you only provide rich meat, the infants starve and the children grow tired of the plainess.

The adults are happy, because they know the value and rarity of the rich meat.

If you want to draw the infants and children in Christ to the banquet, you must prepare a table for them. (Feed my sheep!)

Knowledge of God cannot be consumed in one great bite - we must have charity to those whom the Lord has appointed to set the table and feed the sheep "pure spiritual milk" ...and prepare them to become adults in Christ.

But if you only set the table for adults...
 
I know this is not a perfect analogy, but when the Apostle Paul was dispensing "spiritual milk" to the people of Corinth, I wonder what that looked and sounded like. What do you think he was talking? Marriage? Family? Work ethics? "Witnessing"? Small groups? Programs? Community outreach opportunities? (Now which of those is bad? None of them, but that still wasn't his message, I'm sure.)

And the rebuttal is: "Yes, Paul certainly WAS talking those things!"

To which I respond: "Aha, but those things came AFTER the Gospel."

And the Gospel is not, "Who ever is having problems right now, come up front after the service and have a "prayer team member" pray with you. And if you have not received Christ yet, they'll help you do that, too!"

Nor is it, "If you'd like to begin a personal relationship with Jesus, you can do so now by coming up front and putting Jesus on the throne of your life!"

Without a firm foundation of Christ in his saving office, those things are more "rearranging of the flesh," as one of my friends says.

I bet it was a whole lot different than what we usually call "spiritual milk" in our day and age. Our idea of "milk" is something like, "Hey, lets have a puppet show, and then when people are in a habit of coming, we'll start talking more about the deep things of God!"

Or- "Let's keep the message on works and techniques, and when someone wants to "get deep", they can study on their own or join one of our small groups."

What I rarely see happening is Christ being "placarded" in front of the whole congregation (through preaching), just as Moses lifted up the snake on the pole, so that all men will have to look to Him to be saved.

Paul told the Galatians that "before their very eyes Christ was portrayed as crucified." That means he preached the cross so much, and with so much vigor, that is was actually as if those hearing the message were at the foot of the cross themselves!

It seems messages these days are all devoid of the faith that says, "If I preach Christ, then the Holy Spirit will annoint the message to men's hearts, and He will by all means save some!"

The message used to be "foolishness to those that are perishing." It seems in our day and age that it is also "foolishness to those that are being 'saved'."

Why so much emphasis on the seeker, and not on the One being sought? If only Christ were presented in a way that made the whole congregation fall down and say, "What must we do to be saved???" The message is so diluted that there is no "saving" necessary, only "helping". The only time people fall down in worship is if the music is so good that after having their arms in the air, their head tilted back, and their eyes closed for so long that they become off balance.

I have no doubt that PDL and other seeker sensitive movements are successful in building large numbers. My only question is, large numbers of what?

I remember one time the president of the SBC said, "What you attract people with, you keep them with!"

Boy, what I rant I went on.... Sorry about all that... but most of it is probably true! (and yes, it saddens me)
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
No - the problem is that we have forgotten that we have kindred out there with different measures of faith and that the church is like a great banquet.

At the banquet you have infants, children and adults.

If you only provide rich meat, the infants starve and the children grow tired of the plainess.

The adults are happy, because they know the value and rarity of the rich meat.

If you want to draw the infants and children in Christ to the banquet, you must prepare a table for them. (Feed my sheep!)

Knowledge of God cannot be consumed in one great bite - we must have charity to those whom the Lord has appointed to set the table and feed the sheep "pure spiritual milk" ...and prepare them to become adults in Christ.

But if you only set the table for adults...
Click to expand...

That's why the divines created a Shorter and a Larger Catechism. ;)

and lest I forget...as far as worship being center...a Directory for Public and Private Worship... :)

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by crhoades]
 
The only time people fall down in worship is if the music is so good that after having their arms in the air, their head tilted back, and their eyes closed for so long that they become off balance.
Click to expand...

:lol: but, as you said, sad.
 
I think ya'll are blinding yourselves with your biases, pre-conceptions and legalistic attitudes (one might even suggest arrogance) and painting with too broad a stroke.

You condemn in the aggregate without extending charity to your kindred.

I still love ya'll, though! :D

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
I think ya'll are blinding yourselves with your biases, pre-conceptions and legalistic attitudes (one might even suggest arrogance) and painting with too broad a stroke.

You condemn in the aggregate without extending charity to your kindred.

I still love ya'll, though! :D

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by jdlongmire]
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:lol: When you say "I think ya'll are..." and then say, "you condemn in the aggregate without..."

Isn't that doing exactly what you're condemning? I'm not sure if you meant me as an aggregate or a kindred.:candle:
 
Actually - I meant the folks participating in the discussion - I may have been unecessarily harsh, but I am passionate about not closing off the Elect from fellowship and fashioning worship pleasing to God, yet edifying to the body - all the body.

I appreciate the scholarly, Godly and passionate folk here, but I think that sometimes "knowledge puffs up" and builds in us a sense that we have some exclusive right to judge.

In this sense, I am not judging the aggregate of the Puritan board, nor the practitioners of the historic faith, I am simply pleading for love and a non-exclusionary sense of charity that I have not seen here for kindred servants.

I am certainly not trying to set myself up as a PDL/RW apologist, just a brother that exults in the Reformed faith and hopeful that this could be a platform to exhibit ourselves as co-workers in this harvest - potentially as the spiritual adults preparing a banquet for the Elect infants and children in Christ, not the Pharaseical (sp?) removers of Christian Liberty.

"His yoke is easy, His burden is light"

[Edited on 12-8-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
Originally posted by SemperFideles

...

Does the modern Church need any more "how to reach out", "how to create dynamic worship", "how to empower ministries", and a host of other books like them? People keep looking at the symptom of modern Evangelicalism that people are self-centered and not active in Ministry or vibrant in life and so they keep on coming up with practical ideas or steps on how to achieve that.

...

In the PDL, Rick Warren states that the biggest problem in modern Evangelicalism is that Christians aren't serving enough. BAH! The problem is the Gospel, lack of service is a symptom. Rick Warren only continues to exacerbate the symptoms by writing more books that take up time that ought to be focused on the REAL problem.
Click to expand...

Hmmm ... this coming on a Reformed list. Last time I checked Reformed pastors and academics were no slouches when it came to writing a multitude of books on all sorts of subjects. And not to mention all those conferences ... PCRT, CVCRT, Greenville, WTS, ... the list is almost endless. E.g., the Evangel Reformed Conference 2005: "What is Reformed Worship?" Do we really need yet another conference on Reformed Worship when we could be doing worship? :D
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
"His yoke is easy, His burden is light"
[Edited on 12-8-2005 by jdlongmire]
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:amen: Precisely, the point, JD!

Adding ANYTHING to the Gospel (including worship techniques) is another gospel, deceiving the lost and/or burdening and tyranizing the flock -- which is NO gospel at all.

Robin ;)
 
Saddleback's worship director, David Currie writes to another worship leader, attending SB worship seminars, about the mystic Evelyn Underhill:

Ken,

Great contribution! I just finished reading Underhill´s book and found her core definition ("œtotal adoring response") compelling as well. God always takes the initiative in worship and should get the first word. What do you think Underhill would make of current trends in worship? What else might she add to our conversation, especially since she had a fairly high regard for historic liturgical forms? Any of the rest of you find her work helpful?

You also further unpacked the "œwhole person" part of my definition and provided some greater focus for the attitude/expression element that Tim raised. What other kinds of actions are involved in healthy, Biblical worship?

Peace in Christ,
Dave


Amazon's Book Review of Evelyn Underhill's book "The Spiritual Life":

An uplifting description of the pursuit of the spiritual life, written by one of the greatest mystics of the 20th century, who describes not only the spiritual state of communing with God but also the state of cooperating with God!

About the Author
Evelyn Underhill, an English poet and mystic, was the 20th century's most authoritative voice on mysticism. She defined clearly and succinctly the importance of mysticism as an underlying foundation of any religious or spiritual practice.

Source: http://www.purposedriven.com/en-US/WorshipCommunity/ImplementingPD/defining_discussion.htm

Ah, but, let's remember, Mr. Currie is still working on his "working definition" of Christian worship... 'er PD worship.

Btw, I'm sure both these gentlemen really love Jesus...I wonder which Jesus, though????

r.
 
Robin - "compelling" does not mean - "and now I shall discard my tenents of worship:

David Currie's Working Definition

"œBiblical worship occurs when the whole Word of God guides
the whole person together with the whole people of God into the full
presence of the Father, in full union with the Son,
through the full power of the Holy Spirit."

for this person's principles."

Robin - you hate the PDL method so much that you are utilizing methods I have seen Atheist/Skeptics use to undermine faith and demonize Christianity- you are decontextualizing to build your argument, as well as hyper-accentuating anything you could perceive as error...

Go review Augustine and Calvin with the same critical eye - I am sure you could find plenty to criticise...

Why not go contribute if you have something to add?

Maybe help direct the discussion?

[Edited on 12-9-2005 by jdlongmire]
 
To methods, JD, I agree I do use one - it is this:

Ephesians 5:10-11

(context: Walk in Love)

...and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

:)

Btw, all my posts are linked to source docs, accountable and rightly represented in context.

r.
 
Knowledge of God cannot be consumed in one great bite - we must have charity to those whom the Lord has appointed to set the table and feed the sheep "pure spiritual milk" ...and prepare them to become adults in Christ.
Click to expand...
What is milk? It is the Gospel. That's all I'm asking the focus be on. Too much about methods, not enough about Christ.

I'm on the other side of the world so it's difficult to interact as much in the daily discussions. I would have preferred to respond earlier.

If you read the tenor of my posts I am not concerned about RW's Church but the influence his teaching has on other Churches. The effect of a book like PDL and others is to give more method to a method-craving Church that no longer preaches milk.

Also, it is true religion to take care of the poor, sick, and suffering. But it is also civic virtue if not rooted in the Gospel. There are Roman Catholic ministries that outstrip Rick Warren's efforts by a wide margin - Catholic Charities comes to mind.

You seem to believe you have some sort of charitable view of things that the rest of us are lacking. I attend a Southern Baptist Church right now precisely because I have a heart for the Christians here - Japanese, Chinese, Filipino, Canadian, and American. I teach Bible Study to them and have been teaching them Galatians. To see their hearts warmed because somebody has finally been giving them the milk they have craved for years is truly edifying to me. To them, the Gospel has been "Jesus came to be my example..." and little else.

Try to understand better the substance of the criticism and you would realize you're arguing against the necessity to make the Gospel central first before moving on to meat. The meat is wisdom that flows out of a heart transformed and matured by the Word of God and the Church.

I won't dispute the issue that some Reformed people get needlessly caught up in being punctillious about certain issues. The Gospel is one area where I become strident and uncompromising over however.

[Edited on 12-9-2005 by SemperFideles]
 
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