Question for the non EP

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Tim, you cited this before in a prior thread some time back and I raised a question, got confused and dropped it. I have since checked the citation. I confess that out of context this is a very confusing, I would say a misleading extract. I thought surely Dr. Fesko is not presuming that the Annotations reflect the Assembly's actual views? The Annotations are not any sort of formal production of the assembly. Yet the way he references it in his book seems to imply this. The annotations only represent the views of the authors in the work (Featley, an Anglican, did the Pauline Epistles in the 1645 edition; I don't know who did them in the 1657 but seem to have the thought the publishers drafted someone else given his ejection from the assembly). Thus they have the same weight as Leigh's or any other individual work of a Westminster divine; they only express the author's opinion. Thus one is left with looking at individual views and he omits some that are important as they work against his theory. He doesn't interact with Ford; and then their is the preface to the only English printing of the Scottish Psalter. I'm sure Matthew Winzer could add more here but I'll leave it at that. This is not to derail the thread but since it is the second time at least you have referenced that quote from Fesko, I wanted to address it.
The assembly’s Annotations embrace Leigh’s understanding of the verse in question and explain that psalms are the psalms of David, hymns are certain “ditties”composed on special occasions, and spiritual songs were not composed before hand but were “prick’t before them with musical notes, but such as men endited by an extraordinary gift.”79 In other words, spiritual songs were composed extemporaneously.

79 Annotations, comm. Eph. 5: 19.
 
The Greek words used certainly don't mean Psalms from a historical linguistic context
Tim, what historical linguistic context are you referring to? It's a fact that the Psalm headings contain all these words (psalm, hymn, and ode) in the Greek. https://heidelblog.net/2012/09/psalms-hymns-and-spiritual-songs-in-the-septuagint/


Even Scott Aniol, who disagrees with EP, admits that Paul is referring in Ephesians and Colossians to the book of Psalms: http://religiousaffections.org/news-reviews/of-psalms-hymns-and-spiritual-songs-and-the-rpw/

I don't know what to say about the quote from Calvin, except that he wasn't 100% right on every doctrinal issue in his lifetime. :)
 
Tim, you cited this before in a prior thread some time back and I raised a question, got confused and dropped it. I have since checked the citation. I confess that out of context this is a very confusing, I would say a misleading extract. I thought surely Dr. Fesko is not presuming that the Annotations reflect the Assembly's actual views? The Annotations are not any sort of formal production of the assembly. Yet the way he references it in his book seems to imply this. The annotations only represent the views of the authors in the work (Featley, an Anglican, did the Pauline Epistles in the 1645 edition; I don't know who did them in the 1657 but seem to have the thought the publishers drafted someone else given his ejection from the assembly). Thus they have the same weight as Leigh's or any other individual work of a Westminster divine; they only express the author's opinion. Thus one is left with looking at individual views and he omits some that are important as they work against his theory. He doesn't interact with Ford; and then their is the preface to the only English printing of the Scottish Psalter. I'm sure Matthew Winzer could add more here but I'll leave it at that. This is not to derail the thread but since it is the second time at least you have referenced that quote from Fesko, I wanted to address it.
The assembly’s Annotations embrace Leigh’s understanding of the verse in question and explain that psalms are the psalms of David, hymns are certain “ditties”composed on special occasions, and spiritual songs were not composed before hand but were “prick’t before them with musical notes, but such as men endited by an extraordinary gift.”79 In other words, spiritual songs were composed extemporaneously.

79 Annotations, comm. Eph. 5: 19.

Chris,

I understand your concern. I used the quotes to answer Tyler's question, not to make an argument that the Westminster Standards are explicitly supportive of non-EP.
 
The Greek words used certainly don't mean Psalms from a historical linguistic context
Tim, what historical linguistic context are you referring to? It's a fact that the Psalm headings contain all these words (psalm, hymn, and ode) in the Greek. https://heidelblog.net/2012/09/psalms-hymns-and-spiritual-songs-in-the-septuagint/


Even Scott Aniol, who disagrees with EP, admits that Paul is referring in Ephesians and Colossians to the book of Psalms: http://religiousaffections.org/news-reviews/of-psalms-hymns-and-spiritual-songs-and-the-rpw/

I don't know what to say about the quote from Calvin, except that he wasn't 100% right on every doctrinal issue in his lifetime. :)

Please feel free to PM me. I don't want to derail the thread.

Thanks for understanding!
 
The Greek words used certainly don't mean Psalms from a historical linguistic context
Tim, what historical linguistic context are you referring to? It's a fact that the Psalm headings contain all these words (psalm, hymn, and ode) in the Greek. https://heidelblog.net/2012/09/psalms-hymns-and-spiritual-songs-in-the-septuagint/


Even Scott Aniol, who disagrees with EP, admits that Paul is referring in Ephesians and Colossians to the book of Psalms: http://religiousaffections.org/news-reviews/of-psalms-hymns-and-spiritual-songs-and-the-rpw/

I don't know what to say about the quote from Calvin, except that he wasn't 100% right on every doctrinal issue in his lifetime. :)

To be fair, Calvin makes that comment earlier in his life. Later, in his Ephesian sermons (a few years after his commentary), he makes this comment in regards to Ephesians 5:19:

“Now St. Paul sets down here songs, psalms, and hymns, which scarcely differ at all from one another, and therefore there is no need to seek entertainment for ourselves in setting forth any subtle distinction among them.”(Sermons on Ephesians (5:18-21), pp. 552-553)
 
Tim,

Out of curiosity, where did you get those definitions for hymns and spiritual songs?

My pastor. The resources below may be useful:

Calvin:

Farther, under these three terms he includes all kinds of songs. They are commonly distinguished in this way -- that a psalm is that, in the singing of which some musical instrument besides the tongue is made use of: a hymn is properly a song of praise, whether it be sung simply with the voice or otherwise; while an ode contains not merely praises, but exhortations and other matters.

Fesko:

The assembly’s Annotations embrace Leigh’s understanding of the verse in question and explain that psalms are the psalms of David, hymns are certain “ditties”composed on special occasions, and spiritual songs were not composed before hand but were “prick’t before them with musical notes, but such as men endited by an extraordinary gift.”79 In other words, spiritual songs were composed extemporaneously.

79 Annotations, comm. Eph. 5: 19.

The Greek words used certainly don't mean Psalms from a historical linguistic context. Whether Paul meant Psalms only is not in the scope of this thread.

Tim,

Your definitions, Calvin's definitions, and the Annotations' definitions all differ from one another significantly:

Psalm - Calvin says it is distinguished by the use of an instrument; the Annotations say it refers to the Psalms of David (You didn't give a definition; that's okay--I know you weren't asked for one).

Hymn - You say that it is a Scripture paraphrase; Calvin says it is a song of praise; the Annotations say that it is a song composed on a special occasion.

Song - You say that it is an original composition (an uninspired one, I assume); Calvin says that it is a song of exhortation; the Annotations say it is an extemporaneous song given in the moment of its performance by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Tyler, can you give the text from the Annotations and do you know who did the work for the 1657 edition and if it differs from the 1645?
 
The Greek words used certainly don't mean Psalms from a historical linguistic context
Tim, what historical linguistic context are you referring to? It's a fact that the Psalm headings contain all these words (psalm, hymn, and ode) in the Greek. https://heidelblog.net/2012/09/psalms-hymns-and-spiritual-songs-in-the-septuagint/


Even Scott Aniol, who disagrees with EP, admits that Paul is referring in Ephesians and Colossians to the book of Psalms: http://religiousaffections.org/news-reviews/of-psalms-hymns-and-spiritual-songs-and-the-rpw/

I don't know what to say about the quote from Calvin, except that he wasn't 100% right on every doctrinal issue in his lifetime. :)

Please feel free to PM me. I don't want to derail the thread.

Thanks for understanding!

It was a rhetorical question only, Tim; but thanks. :)
 
Tyler,

Feel free to PM me to discuss why I thought the quotes, though varying, were relevant and helpful.

Blessings,
 
Thanks for your response Victor, and yes, I meant to say are EP!
So would it be correct to say that non-EP churches then allow for contemporary/modern worship songs to be sung?


Not replying for Mr. Bottomly, but that conclusion might or might not be accurate, depending on the church. There are churches that are not EP which avoid contemporary music. And the answer would further be nuanced by the definition of "contemporary/modern".
 
Not replying for Mr. Bottomly, but that conclusion might or might not be accurate, depending on the church. There are churches that are not EP which avoid contemporary music. And the answer would further be nuanced by the definition of "contemporary/modern".
Right.

Non EP means simply that psalms are not the only things sung. It does not necessarily mean "contemporary worship."

You could call our church non-EP because we might sing 3 or 4 psalms and then one old-fashioned 4-part harmony hymn from the 17th or 18th century.
 
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