Questioning Baptist Convictions

[JStone]

Hi All,

I'm sorry for keeping this so short, but I don't have much time at the moment.

Long story short, I'm a confessional Baptist (1689) who is seriously questioning his Baptist convictions (specifically credo-baptism). I find myself being swayed by paedobaptist arguments.

My question(s) is/are this:

Has anyone else on this board been in the same situation?
If so, how did you handle it?
Any recommendations on how I should proceed?

Blessings,
Justin

 

[Tim]

Justin, there are many people who have described on the Puritan Board a similar circumstance. You are not alone. Have you had any success in finding such threads?

One recommendation I know that you will receive on the PB is that you continue to honor and respect the authority of your elders (I am not suggesting that you wouldn't). This doesn't mean that you must follow them in Baptist doctrine if you become convicted otherwise, but that you should communicate your struggle to your elders without causing division or an open question of authority in front of the other members of your congregation.

Other than that, I suggest that you try to locate some of the best materials available from each position. Know the best arguments from each. It will be unsettling for you, but this is the way to grow in wisdom and confidence as you eventually settle on one side or the other. Allow yourself to take whatever time you need. There is no rush to come to any conviction.

Finally, it is always helpful to be reminded that we are all united to Christ our Savior, even across lines of doctrinal division.

 

[JML]

First, a question:

Is your current church Reformed Baptist or are you a Reformed Baptist in a non-Reformed Baptist Church? There is a reason for my question.


As for advice: Talk to your elders. If they are not Reformed, I would recommend also talking to a Reformed Baptist pastor. There is a lot more advice that I would give but don't think it proper since it may be contrary to what your elders would recommend.

 

[JStone]

Justin, there are many people who have described on the Puritan Board a similar circumstance. You are not alone. Have you had any success in finding such threads?

One recommendation I know that you will receive on the PB is that you continue to honor and respect the authority of your elders (I am not suggesting that you wouldn't). This doesn't mean that you must follow them in Baptist doctrine if you become convicted otherwise, but that you should communicate your struggle to your elders without causing division or an open question of authority in front of the other members of your congregation.

Other than that, I suggest that you try to locate some of the best materials available from each position. Know the best arguments from each. It will be unsettling for you, but this is the way to grow in wisdom and confidence as you eventually settle on one side or the other. Allow yourself to take whatever time you need. There is no rush to come to any conviction.

Finally, it is always helpful to be reminded that we are all united to Christ our Savior, even across lines of doctrinal division.

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the advice. It is really helpful. I haven't searched the forum very thoroughly for previous threads, so I will set aside some time to do that.

Thanks for the advice on getting to know both sides of the argument. I definitely have broad-view understandings, but I need to plunge a bit deeper on both sides. I think this ties into your advice about talking to my elders. I need to be well-versed, because I'm sure they would (understandably so) like to see me fall on the credo-baptist side of things, since they are, after all, Baptist elders.

You have given me much to chew on. Thank you.

Justin

---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

Hi John,

I'm not sure what the exact difference is between a Reformed Baptist church, and a Baptist church whose elders are reformed. My church falls into the latter, I think. The former, to my understanding, requires members to hold a reformed view, while the latter allows non-reformed Christians into membership, even though they preach a reformed view of the gospel.

Anyway, that's a long way of saying my elders are all Calvinistic in their soteriology.

Justin

 

[JML]

Hi John,

I'm not sure what the exact difference is between a Reformed Baptist church, and a Baptist church whose elders are reformed. My church falls into the latter, I think. The former, to my understanding, requires members to hold a reformed view, while the latter allows non-reformed Christians into membership, even though they preach a reformed view of the gospel.

Anyway, that's a long way of saying my elders are all Calvinistic in their soteriology.

Justin

Thanks. I agree that it would be a scary conversation to have considering they obviously want you to remain credobaptist as you said. However, it would be good to have someone that you know to help you with your thoughts on this issue. One reason your elders need to be informed on what is going on is that a change in this doctrine would result in a change in where you worship on a weekly basis. I went through a time a study on this doctrine and did as Tim said.

1) I studied both sides in-depth with an open mind. This included reading and interacting with people on both sides.
2) I studied the Scriptures for what they said instead of trying to read a doctrine into the text.
3) I interacted with my pastor on the subject (who I made aware that I was studying the subject in-depth and looking at both sides).

 

[timmopussycat]

Hi All,

I'm sorry for keeping this so short, but I don't have much time at the moment.

Long story short, I'm a confessional Baptist (1689) who is seriously questioning his Baptist convictions (specifically credo-baptism). I find myself being swayed by paedobaptist arguments.

My question(s) is/are this:

Has anyone else on this board been in the same situation?
If so, how did you handle it?
Any recommendations on how I should proceed?

One thing to keep in mind is that if paedobaptism is biblical it must be proved by deductions that are good and necessary consequences from texts that do not explicitly teach the point. Many pb arguments are possible consequences of given texts, what will be at issue is whether there is sufficient data making those conclusions necessary consequences of the biblical data.

 

[DMcFadden]

Question 1 - yes
Question 2 - I struggled for several years and joined a paedobaptist church when we recently moved from L.A. to Fort Wayne.
Question 3 - cautiously. Don't throw out the baby with the baptismal water. You may find that your present congregation is the best place for you, despite your differences on baptism. If you want a church that will fit your new convictions, you might try a PCA, OP, or ARP congregation in your town and see what you think. In any case, do not burn bridges, make grand statements or declarations, or put down your Baptist friends/family for their "wrong" views. People who make such shifts in theological positions often go through a "cage stage" where they are insufferably arrogant and obnoxious. This does not honor Christ and is foolish considering the fact that confessional Baptists and confessional Presbyterians share much in common.

 

[JP Wallace]

I'm not sure what the exact difference is between a Reformed Baptist church, and a Baptist church whose elders are reformed. My church falls into the latter, I think. The former, to my understanding, requires members to hold a reformed view, while the latter allows non-reformed Christians into membership, even though they preach a reformed view of the gospel.

You've received good enough advice on your main query but I just wanted to answer this one a little.

There could be a huge difference, in fact, on a day to day basis. A Reformed Baptist church may have a great deal more in common with Presbyterians that a baptist church that has a belief in the doctrines of grace, the theological and practical differences between a Baptist church that believes the doctrines of grace and a confessionally reformed one may be very great as well.

Such issues as these unite Reformed Baptists and Reformed Presbyterians and may divide Reformed Baptists from Baptists who merely believe the doctrines of grace; Covenant theology (RB) v Dispensationalism (B), Regulative Principle of Worship (RB) v Normative(B), eldership rule (RB) v congregationalism (B), sacramental theology in relation to the Lord's Supper (RB v memorialism (B), 3 uses of the law (RB) v practical antinomianism (B), Sabbatarianism (RB) v non-Sabbatarian (B) and the list could go on. Also the place of the Confession itself in church life may itself be a difference.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

My question(s) is/are this:

Has anyone else on this board been in the same situation?
If so, how did you handle it?
Any recommendations on how I should proceed?

1.)Yes.

2.)Yes, I was a Reformed Baptist for many years. I was very adamant in my Baptist doctrine because of my in-depth study concerning what I perceived as differences between the Old Covenant and New Covenant. When I began to understand the Covenant of Grace more fully and how the Old and New Covenants were purely administrations of the Covenant of Grace I switched positions. I tried to be very cautious about my change of position because I wanted to make sure I was not one who was tossed to and fro doctrinally. I also didn't want my position change to be based upon an emotional attachment to a particular group because I admired them for their love of God or because I respected them. Sometimes we just follow people and their teaching because we have an affection for them. And I truly did have a lot of affection for Presbyterians. I also had a lot of affection for the Confessional Baptists. I just wanted to make sure it was because I truly saw this teaching in the Word of God. Here is where I revealed my change of position. http://www.puritanboard.com/f31/kline-works-merit-pardigm-70896/#post908561

3.)The recommendations on how to proceed above are very good.

 

[Mathetes]

I actually started off 'undecided' on the whole paedo-craedo baptism issue. I attended Presbyterian churches first here in Toronto because I was a Calvinist and I knew Presbyterians were Calvinist by default. Looking for Reformed <insert denomination here> churches wasn't getting me anywhere. Once I moved downtown, my wife found a Baptist church that we could attend and I was happy to find out that they were Reformed (or, at least, Calvinistic). I was still kind of undecided on the Baptism issue, but I eventually came to a craedo position, not from any needling from the Pastor or churchgoers but just working through Scripture and thinking it over. I feel I made the right decision, at least.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I eventually came to a craedo position, not from any needling from the Pastor or churchgoers but just working through Scripture and thinking it over. I feel I made the right decision, at least.

Maybe you can help Justin know what those scriptures were. I am sure I have heard them also. I am not necessarily looking for a debate but since you made the implications that you're working through the scripture and your feelings about you're decisions are correct, I want to see what you do.

 

[JStone]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks SO MUCH for the friendly advice. It has all been well received and encouraging, from proponents on both sides of the issue.

I do have one more question, directed toward those who once held credo-baptism, and moved to a paedobaptist position...specifically, the men (you can probably guess where I'm going with this)...

How, if applicable, did you bring this up and address it with your family? And by family, I mean wife and children. I know this might be a private/personal question, but if there are some general principles you've gleaned and care to share them, it would be appreciated.

Regards,
Justin

---------- Post added at 08:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 PM ----------

My question(s) is/are this:

Has anyone else on this board been in the same situation?
If so, how did you handle it?
Any recommendations on how I should proceed?

1.)Yes.

2.)Yes, I was a Reformed Baptist for many years. I was very adamant in my Baptist doctrine because of my in-depth study concerning what I perceived as differences between the Old Covenant and New Covenant. When I began to understand the Covenant of Grace more fully and how the Old and New Covenants were purely administrations of the Covenant of Grace I switched positions. I tried to be very cautious about my change of position because I wanted to make sure I was not one who was tossed to and fro doctrinally. I also didn't want my position change to be based upon an emotional attachment to a particular group because I admired them for their love of God or because I respected them. Sometimes we just follow people and their teaching because we have an affection for them. And I truly did have a lot of affection for Presbyterians. I also had a lot of affection for the Confessional Baptists. I just wanted to make sure it was because I truly saw this teaching in the Word of God. Here is where I revealed my change of position. http://www.puritanboard.com/f31/kline-works-merit-pardigm-70896/#post908561

3.)The recommendations on how to proceed above are very good.

Thank you for the advice. It's all well received and seems most prudent to me, for sure.

I just thought I'd add, I don't think I'm being swayed by personality, but rather, argument and Scripture. For one, the men I most admire in the evangelical world are Baptist! (The Paul Washer, Voddie Baucham, Steve Lawson, and Albert Martins of the world.) But, as I've been exposed more and more to covenant theology, church history, the reformers, Puritans, and great podcasts such as Christ the Center/Reformed Forum, White Horse Inn, etc., my views are changing. Rather than being swayed to and fro from doctrine to doctrine (which is most certainly a pitfall that must be avoided!), I feel as I grow in my theological understanding and convictions, I am being moved to a paedobaptist position. I, for one, started my Christian walk a staunch and angry Arminian, who had his eyes opened to the doctrines of grace. I then moved from there to covenant theology, which confronted my inherited Left-Behind style dispensationalism and eschatology, eventually moving to an amillennial position, and convinced proponent of covenant theology. As I continue moving in this direction, the paedobaptist position seems like a natural move to me, for Scriptural, historical, and theological reasons.

Anyway, that's a bit of context.

Blessings,
Justin

 

[Mathetes]

Maybe you can help Justin know what those scriptures were. I am sure I have heard them also. I am not necessarily looking for a debate but since you made the implications that your working through the scripture and your feelings about your decisions are correct, I want to see what you do.

Well I think I'd rather avoid that since the paedo-craedo debate has gone on here ad infinitum. I think the best approach is that Justin can send me a private message if he he's interested and this way the forum gets to avoid another rerun.

 

[Jash Comstock]

I have been in the same situation you are brother. I recently changed my beliefs on credo-baptism, and now am a paedo-baptist. It is a struggle. This issue is one in Baptist circles that many times seems the un-askable question. My only advice, talk to your elders. Pray. Only Christ can show us truth, no matter how great our intellectual argument, what we should be seeking is not only, "what is most logical"? But also, "what does Christ tell my soul is true?" Draw near to him. Wrestle in his presence. Take advantage of his office as Divine Listener. Oftentimes, our deepest struggles are calmed simply by getting alone with him and asking him to say, "peace, be still" over our souls. Whatever you do, realize that there are many who have questioned these things before you, and many will after. Be respectful, be honorable, but do not violate your conscience.

 

[DMcFadden]

My eldest son pastors a large church in the midwest. He and his wife think I'm nuts.
My elder daughter is a seminary graduate and she and her husband also think that I'm nuts.
My second son had several of his "broad evangelical" college classmates apostasize, and he is just glad that I'm still in the faith, albeit wrong.
My fourth child is a bit of a rebel (recovering alcoholic and would be rock star) and he is just plain amused at his other siblings reactions.
The youngest daughter is in a new dating relationship with a dispensational seminarian and she is too preoccupied with "love" to care.

My counsel is to go easy and don't become too strident. Find a simple, pastoral, and persuasive piece in defense of your position and ask them if they would be willing to read it in order to better understand where you now are. Tell them that you are NOT trying to "convert" them to the absolute correctness of your view, merely that you are trying to share with them why so many good and Godly Christians see it differently from how they see it.

* "think I'm nuts." Actually, they know me as a strong minded man of firm conviction and the ability to argue points by adducing great amounts of exegetical, theological, and historical data. How do you move from being a "Baptist pastor" to holding the paedobaptist position??? It all just seems a cognitive "bridge too far" for them to comprehend.

 

[Herald]

I'm not sure what the exact difference is between a Reformed Baptist church, and a Baptist church whose elders are reformed. My church falls into the latter, I think. The former, to my understanding, requires members to hold a reformed view, while the latter allows non-reformed Christians into membership, even though they preach a reformed view of the gospel.

You've received good enough advice on your main query but I just wanted to answer this one a little.

There could be a huge difference, in fact, on a day to day basis. A Reformed Baptist church may have a great deal more in common with Presbyterians that a baptist church that has a belief in the doctrines of grace, the theological and practical differences between a Baptist church that believes the doctrines of grace and a confessionally reformed one may be very great as well.

Such issues as these unite Reformed Baptists and Reformed Presbyterians and may divide Reformed Baptists from Baptists who merely believe the doctrines of grace; Covenant theology (RB) v Dispensationalism (B), Regulative Principle of Worship (RB) v Normative(B), eldership rule (RB) v congregationalism (B), sacramental theology in relation to the Lord's Supper (RB v memorialism (B), 3 uses of the law (RB) v practical antinomianism (B), Sabbatarianism (RB) v non-Sabbatarian (B) and the list could go on. Also the place of the Confession itself in church life may itself be a difference.

Paul makes some very good points. On the surface the division between confessional Baptists and non-confessional Baptists are marked. Confessional Baptists do have a lot in common with our confessional Presbyterian brethren; but there are also systemic differences that cannot be bridged. It's an interesting dynamic and conundrum. On the one hand there is a kinship with non-confessional Baptist brethren on credo-baptism and eccelesiology. On the other hand there is an appreciation for the Reformed tradition through the DoG, confessionalism, and covenantalism. All this convinces me that the Reformed Baptist tradition occupies a unique place among Protestants; not mainline Baptist and distinct from Presbyterianism.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

* "think I'm nuts."

Yep, I think you are. But in a most loving way. Wanna be my boy's adopted grandparent? I would welcome it no matter where you landed on this issue! You love people based upon the person and work of Christ. That is what I want my kids to have.

 

[Rom]

I became a paedo-baptist recently (about a year ago). It was after attending a PCA church, but not because of my church beating me over the head with it , but my own exploration of the topic.

As far as how I approached it with my wife, that is an ongoing affair. I think she's come around to the idea, but she's had a traumatic time with the Baptism topic. She was baptized as an infant in the Roman Church, and then when we came out to Texas she was baptized by a Non-Denom Church who taught us that Infant Baptism is no Baptism at all. In between all of that, she had a Church of Christ friend tell her that unless you were baptized on Profession of Faith you were not saved. So she's had all sorts of wacky teaching on baptism given to her.

So when I told her about Infant Baptism I think it just made the waters muddier at first . Then I walked her through the Scriptures that we would use to discuss the issue (1 Cor 7 was a big one, then going to 1 Cor 10, 1 Pet 3:21, Gen 17, Matthew 28:19, etc., etc.) and she seems to understand where I am coming from (Note: Those scriptures were not to incite any debates, I am just walking through my process since the OP asked!).

I am in discussion with her about baptizing our children right now.

Due to being in the "Bible Belt", people look at you like you are heretics when you discuss baptizing your children - so it also carries an added social stigma here which can be hard to overcome.