Questions on the Binding of Satan

[Peairtach]

Turtle

When Satan is bound, the nations are not being deceived and gathering together to battle.
The nations are not being gathered together for battle,
therefore Satan is currently bound.

Your definition of "deceiving the nations" is very narrow. Even in the past one hundred years whole nations have been deceived by Satan as nations, apart from some believers among them, and even believers have been taken in to some extent sometimes. Look at footage of Satan deceving whole nations through his minions, Lenin, Mao and Hitler. Look at nations like Great Britain and the USA, large swathes of which are deceived by Satan's tools of godless humanism and materialism.

The undeceiving of the nations has made progress even in the darkest nations, but there is still a long way to go.

Christ says He is plundering Satan's Kingdom in connection with the casting out of demon's. That plundering has continued over the past 2,000 years, but the full plundering, binding, shutting up and sealing of Satan in his prison, so he cannot deceive the nations as nations has not yet occurred.

Scott

Would we say that Satan was bound from "deceiving the nations" in that, in His death, burial and resurrection he broke that power, and from that point on the Gospel went out to the nations?

Yes. But clearly Christ is in a process of further undeceiving the nations by the progress of the Gospel in history. E.g. until the Gospel arrived/arrives ("the chain") in parts of the world where it is unknown, these nations were/are thoroughly deceived, are they not? Satan was basically very unchained in e.g. Africa, or before that Europe, before the Gospel arrived there. Then when the Gospel is embraced by these nations as well as heard by them, Satan is further restricted.

Satan is like a fatally wounded Serpent, writhing and flailing about. Still very dangrous. The coup de gras of Armageddon has not arrived yet (Revelation 19). After that he will cause no more trouble, apart from one final big shove at the end of the world before he is forever punished.

See the history of Napoleon for an analogy. He caused mayhem accross Europe before being defeated and imprisoned on Elba. After some time he escaped Elba and had one final bid for power at Waterloo. Then he was imprisoned in St Helena, from which he never emerged alive.

Of course this must be denied by amils, who believe that the Gospel makes no real progress in history, or if it does, each step of progress is successfully countered by progress in Satan's dominion.

Eventually by the power of the Holy Spirit, Satan's desperate strategies in our era, will become apparent to all, and his kingdom will be further plundered and he will be further restricted.

 

[Turtle]

Turtle

When Satan is bound, the nations are not being deceived and gathering together to battle.
The nations are not being gathered together for battle,
therefore Satan is currently bound.

Your definition of "deceiving the nations" is very narrow.

Uh, oh... If you thought that was my definition, it appears neither Manuel or I have been able to convey our argument.

Bryan

 

[Scott1]

Here's what I thinking as I read this summary, realizing we are speaking of a process:

Scott
Would we say that Satan was bound from "deceiving the nations" in that, in His death, burial and resurrection he broke that power, and from that point on the Gospel went out to the nations?

Richard Tallach
Yes. But clearly Christ is in a process of further undeceiving the nations by the progress of the Gospel in history.

It seems we have to be more definite about what the binding was or is.

If Christ's resurrection did the binding in some sense, that must be differentiated from a time where the gospel was actually prevented from going out.

E.g. until the Gospel arrived/arrives ("the chain") in parts of the world where it is unknown, these nations were/are thoroughly deceived, are they not? Satan was basically very unchained in e.g. Africa, or before that Europe, before the Gospel arrived there. Then when the Gospel is embraced by these nations as well as heard by them, Satan is further restricted.

Satan is like a fatally wounded Serpent, writhing and flailing about. Still very dangrous. The coup de gras of Armageddon has not arrived yet (Revelation 19). After that he will cause no more trouble, apart from one final big shove at the end of the world before he is forever punished.

See the history of Napoleon for an analogy. He caused mayhem accross Europe before being defeated and imprisoned on Elba. After some time he escaped Elba and had one final bid for power at Waterloo. Then he was imprisoned in St Helena, from which he never emerged alive.

Of course this must be denied by amils, who believe that the Gospel makes no real progress in history, or if it does, each step of progress is successfully countered by progress in Satan's dominion.

I'm certainly not an expert in the nuances of this.

But it seems amill would merely emphasize the side-by-size advancements of good and evil, seemingly more or less so at times.

That is evil really advances, but so does the gospel. Both do. The evil will not, cannot overcome the gospel, nor its advance. Yet, the advance is not total, not in this age.

(I'm not necessarily advocating that, only proposing that as the way of understanding amill)

Eventually by the power of the Holy Spirit, Satan's desperate strategies in our era, will become apparent to all, and his kingdom will be further plundered and he will be further restricted.

Is this something that happens right before Christ's return?

 

[Peairtach]

Quote:
Eventually by the power of the Holy Spirit, Satan's desperate strategies in our era, will become apparent to all, and his kingdom will be further plundered and he will be further restricted.

Is this something that happens right before Christ's return?

Well once again there will be slightly different views. Re the binding of Satan himself, a lot of Postmils would be much closer, if not identical to the amil view. My view of progress in the binding or shutting-up of Satan is probably somewhat more old-fashioned postmil (?)

Re postmils, I think that most would place what I'm speaking about above in the future and well before the end of the world. There has to be a long time to enjoy the success of the Gospel in history and in the world and to greatly add to the numbers of the redeemed.

By/around this time, apostate Christianity will be no more (Revelation 18), the Jews as a nation will have turned to Christ (Romans 9-11), the nations as nations will have turned to Christ and ecclesistical heresy and persecution (Second Beast) and civil persecution (First Beast) will have been for all serious purposes eliminated (Revelation 19), civil government and all areas of life will be blessed by the influence of God's Word and there will be international peace and prosperity (e.g. Isaiah 2 and 11)

This is to be achieved not by Christ's physical Second Advent but by the work that Christ is doing right now in history.

Postmils have to take a very long view, but they can see the slow but sure signs of the Gospel's advance in church history, which ties in with how they approach these Scriptures.

Further major signs of progress may not be for hundreds of years, or may be round the corner. It doesn't matter for the postmil whether he lives to see such or not, although it's always nice to see gospel progress in your time and/or under your ministry. We will see God glorified in His Providence from the vantage point of the Heavenly Kingdom; see e.g. Revelation.

Re the "binding" again (!), I know we can sometimes push metaphor too far, but notice in my post number 2 above, that elements (d) to (f) of Satan's incarceration from Revelation 20, happen after he is bound. This in itself doesn't prove enough, but ties in with other Scriptures that point to Gospel progress.

Re the amil view of success against Satan's Kingdom.

It's true that as the Gospel has success Satan get's wilder, more wicked and more desperate in his schemes, but this just reveals his underlying weakness and impotence. He knows his time is short (e.g. 3 1/2 years compared to 1,000 years).

But, unlike amils, postmils believe that eventually there will come a tipping point when he and his angelic and human minions are thoroughly and internationally routed, long before the Second Advent and Eschaton.

See e.g. David Brown's " Christ's Second Advent: Will it be Premillennial? "

 

[fralo4truth]

Turtle
Look at footage of Satan deceving whole nations through his minions, Lenin, Mao and Hitler. Look at nations like Great Britain and the USA, large swathes of which are deceived by Satan's tools of godless humanism and materialism.

You and I are on the same wavelength here. It's hard to fathom such despots as you here mention operating as they did, or the humanism that dominates our culture especially in its philosophical form of evolution, as not being a result of Satan's deception. In just a few months Joel Beeke will be in this area for a conference. I will be able to attend my first question-and-answer question, and I plan on asking a question pertaining to this.

Considering your view of a progressive binding of Satan, do you feel there will be a day in which Satan will be "completely bound"?

 

[Turtle]

Turtle
Your definition of "deceiving the nations" is very narrow. Even in the past one hundred years whole nations have been deceived by Satan as nations,....

As I said, you have misread my understanding of "deceiving the nations".

I agree with you that Satan is apparently "deceiving the nations" now. Some of the previous posters seem to argue that we should see an absolute distinction between "nations" being deceived after Satan is loosed and "individuals" being deceived now (apparently because they see "nations" has some special significance in Rev 20), but I don't accept that . When Jesus said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them....etc. etc." who will argue that "nations" excludes "individuals"?

From the beginning Satan was a deceiver. As soon as nations came to being, did deceiving the nations not became the status quo? Deception is his nature. Apart from being bound "that he should deceive the nations no more", what expectation exists for a material change? We are repeatedly warned of being deceived, and we are told that "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." And also that "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing."

Maybe all that already happened and we are now in the period when Satan is bound and deceiving the nations no more. But whatever the case, when he is released (as he will be for a season) it stands to reason that he will have a renewed vigor on account of his new found freedom to once again deceive the nations.

 

[Peairtach]

You and I are on the same wavelength here. It's hard to fathom such despots as you here mention operating as they did, or the humanism that dominates our culture especially in its philosophical form of evolution, as not being a result of Satan's deception. In just a few months Joel Beeke will be in this area for a conference. I will be able to attend my first question-and-answer question, and I plan on asking a question pertaining to this.

Considering your view of a progressive binding of Satan, do you feel there will be a day in which Satan will be "completely bound"?

Yes. I think I've indicated that. When the Gospel finds success in a nation to that extent Satan is bound. When the Gospel will find worldwide success then Satan will be more and more bound.

Since we're speaking metaphorically from Revelation 20, there will be a day when he is not only bound, but also

cast into the bottomless pit

shut up

and sealed.

 

[Peairtach]

As I said, you have misread my understanding of "deceiving the nations".

I agree with you that Satan is apparently "deceiving the nations" now. Some of the previous posters seem to argue that we should see an absolute distinction between "nations" being deceived after Satan is loosed and "individuals" being deceived now (apparently because they see "nations" has some special significance in Rev 20), but I don't accept that . When Jesus said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them....etc. etc." who will argue that "nations" excludes "individuals"?

From the beginning Satan was a deceiver. As soon as nations came to being, did deceiving the nations not became the status quo? Deception is his nature. Apart from being bound "that he should deceive the nations no more", what expectation exists for a material change? We are repeatedly warned of being deceived, and we are told that "evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived." And also that "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing."

Maybe all that already happened and we are now in the period when Satan is bound and deceiving the nations no more. But whatever the case, when he is released (as he will be for a season) it stands to reason that he will have a renewed vigor on account of his new found freedom to once again deceive the nations.

I've never bought into this

(a) Because I see from Church History that where the Gospel is successful, Satan's work is more effectively bound. I.e. even on a micro scaleof a national or local level, rather than the stage of worldwide Church History, we see progress in the binding of Satan, as the leaven of the Gospel affects a community or nation more thoroughly. Satan is further and further restricted in his activity. Should we not expect this on the macro level of worldwide Church History, in the Church's progress against Satan's Kingdom? Obviously it will take a longer period of time.

(b) Because of the real progress I see in Church History of Christ's Kingdom against Satan's. Is the Church not in a better position now than she was in the First Century? If/when the Spirit moves and when the dam of secular humaism breaks, are we not in a better position in which to do greater works than have been done before?

(c) Because of the many indications of real progress by the Church under Christ in the Scriptures. E.g. the Parable of the Leaven.

(d) Because the definition of Satan's binding by amils and others is so weak. Satan is bound so that he cannot attempt to destroy the Church, as he will be allowed to try to do near the last day? Satan has been trying to do his best to destroy the Church from the First Century onwards. He is being progressively bound so that he will not only not be able to raise a rebellion to destroy the Church, but so that he will be shut up; i.e. his voice and power in this world will be broken. The majority of Mankind will be undeceived and only a minority at the most will be in Satan's kingdom.

(e) Christ has been given a task to do, to make the nations His and His Father's, in history. See e.g. Psalm 2. Is He going to return before that task is complete?

 

[Turtle]

Point of Departure

Appreciate your comments Manuel. I believe your hermeneutics are spot on.

I appreciate that you brought up hermeneutics. If we begin with adversarial principles of interpretation, we cannot help but come to differing conclusions.

I'ld like to ask how we should view the passage of Rev 20.

Should our point of departure be:

1) the passage is predominately a descriptive passage that prophesies events, actions, and consequent effects that will display the glory of God, the hope of the elect, and the woe of the lost or..

2) should we instead view the passage predominately as a revelation/confirmation of Satan's nefarious intent to "annihilate the church" which he plans to accomplish by deceiving the nations to gather for battle, as soon as he can. And then based upon this point of departure, interpret the described events, activities, and consequent effects only insomuch as they accomplish the "revealed counter purpose of God" which is (according to the point of departure) to postpone Satan's ability to deceive the nations into gathering for battle?

 

[Peairtach]

I appreciate that you brought up hermeneutics. If we begin with adversarial principles of interpretation, we cannot help but come to differing conclusions.

I'ld like to ask how we should view the passage of Rev 20.

Should our point of departure be:

1) the passage is predominately a descriptive passage that prophesies events, actions, and consequent effects that will display the glory of God, the hope of the elect, and the woe of the lost or..

2) should we instead view the passage predominately as a revelation/confirmation of Satan's nefarious intent to "annihilate the church" which he plans to accomplish by deceiving the nations to gather for battle, as soon as he can. And then based upon this point of departure, interpret the described events, activities, and consequent effects only insomuch as they accomplish the "revealed counter purpose of God" which is (according to the point of departure) to postpone Satan's ability to deceive the nations into gathering for battle?

But Satan's purpose in deceiving the nations isn't just to destroy the Church in one last desperate bid for power at the end of time, but to take as many as he can with him and prevent Christ through His Church from plundering his kingdom, until the point at which he is eventually shut up and sealed up. He knows that his time at the beginning of the millennial kingdom of Christ is short - symbolically and mystically only 3 1/2 years compared to 1,000 years (Revelation 12:12)

Re that purpose, various of his schemes can be detected by a perusal of Church History as I have tried to show above. But each time he has set up some form of opposition to the advance of the Church, his grand scheme has eventually been thwarted and the Kingdom of God has made further advances.

From the time of Christ's ministry onwards the chain of the Gospel has been restricting what Satan can do and how he can do it. But we haven't reached the stage where his power in this world is shut up and sealed. It was revealed to the Prophet Daniel that Christ's Kingdom would grow until it was a great mountain that would fill the whole earth. If this is to happen, clearly Satan's power in this world is to be supplanted in a way it has not yet been.

I agree that Satan's power on the Earth has been doomed from the time of Christ's incarnation. I agree that progress has been made in supplanting Satan's power and kingdom. I agree that the noose of the Gospel chain is tightening around Satan and has been for the past 2,000 years. But the full routing of his kingdom, so that he is shut up and sealed in his prison, is yet future.

 

[Turtle]

What is prison like?

I appreciate that you brought up hermeneutics. If we begin with adversarial principles of interpretation, we cannot help but come to differing conclusions.

I'ld like to ask how we should view the passage of Rev 20.

Should our point of departure be:

1) the passage is predominately a descriptive passage that prophesies events, actions, and consequent effects that will display the glory of God, the hope of the elect, and the woe of the lost or..

2) should we instead view the passage predominately as a revelation/confirmation of Satan's nefarious intent to "annihilate the church" which he plans to accomplish by deceiving the nations to gather for battle, as soon as he can. And then based upon this point of departure, interpret the described events, activities, and consequent effects only insomuch as they accomplish the "revealed counter purpose of God" which is (according to the point of departure) to postpone Satan's ability to deceive the nations into gathering for battle?

But Satan's purpose in deceiving the nations isn't just to destroy the Church in one last desperate bid for power at the end of time, but to take as many as he can with him and prevent Christ through His Church from plundering his kingdom, until the point at which he is eventually shut up and sealed up. He knows that his time at the beginning of the millennial kingdom of Christ is short - symbolically and mystically only 3 1/2 years compared to 1,000 years (Revelation 12:12)

Re that purpose, various of his schemes can be detected by a perusal of Church History as I have tried to show above. But each time he has set up some form of opposition to the advance of the Church, his grand scheme has eventually been thwarted and the Kingdom of God has made further advances.

From the time of Christ's ministry onwards the chain of the Gospel has been restricting what Satan can do and how he can do it. But we haven't reached the stage where his power in this world is shut up and sealed. It was revealed to the Prophet Daniel that Christ's Kingdom would grow until it was a great mountain that would fill the whole earth. If this is to happen, clearly Satan's power in this world is to be supplanted in a way it has not yet been.

I agree that Satan's power on the Earth has been doomed from the time of Christ's incarnation. I agree that progress has been made in supplanting Satan's power and kingdom. I agree that the noose of the Gospel chain is tightening around Satan and has been for the past 2,000 years. But the full routing of his kingdom, so that he is shut up and sealed in his prison, is yet future.

I am not convinced that Satan's purpose should be the predicate to our understanding Rev 20. If we delay our conclusion of how effective "prison" (v.7) is until after we understand Satan's purpose so that we can then determine how effective the prison has to be in order to be effective enough to bind Satan from his purpose, then we have entered a circular argument.

Is prison a progressive detention?
Is prison a selective partially effective detention?

If I every go to prison I hope it is.

Bryan

 

[Peairtach]

I think we got a problem here of one metaphor (the binding of the strong man in Matthew and Mark) interpreting another metaphor (the binding of Satan so that he cannot deceive the nations, Revelation 20) or vice versa.

Are there any other passages that deal with the binding of Satan so specifically?

We both agree that the binding of Satan began in the First Century. But some/many, like yourself, would go further, and say that the binding was fully accomplished in the first century and will know no increase or diminution until Satan is released at the end of the age.

I think that it's difficult to derive the latter view from Christ's words about the binding of the strong man. They were given in the context of Christ casting devils out of certain individuals in Palestine. In their case the strong man was bound by Christ's work and presumably He then plundered the kingdom of Satan when such individuals who were under the power of the Devil came to faith.

This only tells us that such binding started with certain individuals and maybe communities at Christ's First Advent, not that there was a general binding covering Satan's activity throughout the earth which allowed of no increase in such binding, at an important point in redemptive history like the the Cross, the Resurrection, Pentecost or AD 70.

I agree that the first century was a definitive point in redemptive history, that Satan's doom was sealed then. But I disagree that there is no progress, even in the binding of Satan. As a fatally wounded Serpent, he was fatally weakened. But he is getting madder, more desperate and more weak as he realises his time is short. Symbolically and mystically he has only 3 1/2 years compared to Christ's 1,000 years. I.e. Christ is going to bind, shut and seal him up within the first 3 1/2 years of His 1,000 year reign.

The First Century was like D Day (or Stalingrad) in sealing Hitler's fate. But we haven't seen the fall of Berlin yet. But the fall of Berlin is assured by D Day.

In the individual Christian's life there is definitive sanctification, but that doesn't mean that there is not also progressive sanctification, even although it sometimes looks as if progressive sanctification is happening very slowly, not at all, or going round in circles.

The kingdoms of this world definitively became Christ's Kingdom in AD 70 (Revelation 11:15) but He still has to take possession of His inheritance by the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God, as did Joshua and David of the Promised Land.

I don't see why the process of Church conquest over the Earth that we have seen over the past 2,000 years and which we see predicted in the Bible shouldn't correspond to an increase in the restriction of Satan's power and activities, and that is backed up by the Revelation 20 passage which shows a process, albeit metaphorically of course.