RE and TE inter-relationship

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Privileged2Preach

Puritan Board Freshman
So I'm working through Samuel Miller's "Ruling Elder" (I'm a TE in a PCA church, some 12 years) and recently moved to a new pastorate that has a very different dynamic btwn RE and TE. The former church had a very "clean" inter-relationship between RE and TE - (1) all matters - where Scripture speaks - are to be settled from Scripture. (2) where Scripture doesn't plainly speak ( e.g., length of service / translation preached from / musical genre used, etc) the TE is to propose an answer, the Session discuss as a whole all Scriptural considerations, as well the the practical implications of the proposal for the congregation, and then vote the proposal up or down.

Philosopically, all elders are pastors, and have an equal say in the polity of the individual congregation. TE's are not to be dictators, but neither are TE's an employee of the session, taking direction from them as an underling. Where Scripture doesn't specifically speak, and no negative impact foreseen on the proposed policy, the former church essentially "followed my lead." Or... perhaps...we all shared a unified view on thematters up for discussion. I'm not sure, now, really.

The vocational, paid full time TE whose labor is in the word and doctrine, does practically take a lead in proposing and leading / teaching even the RE's how the church should proceed in these matters...where Scripture doesn't specifically speak. The TE is responsible for elder / deacon training. The TE is the moderator of the session. (PCA BCO) As one pastor said to me whern I asked if the TE is to set the vision of the church, and then seek RE approval.... "That's what every pastor is trying to do." Practically, the whole church has one Head, the Lord Jesus Christ. A corporation has a single CEO that must answer to a board. A pure democracy is ultimately leaderless, and descends into schisms and factions. SOMEONE has to lead... in a Christ-like, gentle, patient manner. But someONE MUST lead.

So.... I'm looking for all biblical / practical direction how TE and RE are to inter-relate and work together for the glory of God.
 
Suggestion, gleaned some years ago from a source I can't find today:

Attend to the Pastorals, and read from them Paul's counsels directed particularly to a minister (TE), not more generally to elders, deacons, other teachers and members. This is no elitist brief, or assertion that the typical Christian has little interest in the letters. But it is a fact that the occasion of the writing is directions to Timothy (& Titus) in his calling.

You won't find all your answers spelled out, but you may find much wisdom in taking what Paul writes Timothy about leading the Ephesian church--after his stint there in a similar role.
 
I'm trying to make sense of what you've written... are you saying that in the present context the REs think everyone on Session is eye-to-eye peer and no one is "first among equals?"
 
I'm trying to make sense of what you've written... are you saying that in the present context the REs think everyone on Session is eye-to-eye peer and no one is "first among equals?"


Good assessment. I'm trying to figure out what they think on that, myself. Just concluded my 1st year here... tiem to dig deeper there.
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Suggestion, gleaned some years ago from a source I can't find today:

Attend to the Pastorals, and read from them Paul's counsels directed particularly to a minister (TE), not more generally to elders, deacons, other teachers and members. This is no elitist brief, or assertion that the typical Christian has little interest in the letters. But it is a fact that the occasion of the writing is directions to Timothy (& Titus) in his calling.

You won't find all your answers spelled out, but you may find much wisdom in taking what Paul writes Timothy about leading the Ephesian church--after his stint there in a similar role.
Planning to re-read the Timothy's and Titus with exactly an eye toward that.
 
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The vocational, paid full time TE whose labor is in the word and doctrine, does practically take a lead in proposing
The TE should be open to proposals coming from anywhere. Consensus should be built.

And as moderator of the session, the TE shouldn't even have a vote except in case of ties. At which point the issue probably should be tabled.

I'm trying to make sense of what you've written.
I'll agree with Ben to that point in his sentence. I'm reading it more, however, that it's Pastor vs Session as a body or at least the majority of the session, and that's not going to end well, no matter which side is in the right.
 
And as moderator of the session, the TE shouldn't even have a vote except in case of ties.
Except our courts have ruled that the Moderator is a full member with voting rights.

But I recommend only voting in 3 instances: (1) when adding your vote shows forth symbolic solidarity and uniformity amongst the session, (2) to break a tie to allow a motion to pass, (3) to create a tie to defeat a motion.
 
The TE should be open to proposals coming from anywhere. Consensus should be built.

And as moderator of the session, the TE shouldn't even have a vote except in case of ties. At which point the issue probably should be tabled.


I'll agree with Ben to that point in his sentence. I'm reading it more, however, that it's Pastor vs Session as a body or at least the majority of the session, and that's not going to end well, no matter which side is in the right.
Agreed. I'm not "flexxing" anywhere on anything. Deferring at all points to the RE's. Working on building consensus. I am truly grateful to an all-wise God this present ministry was NOT my first pastorate. I'da messed thigns up bad. :|
 
Agreed. I'm not "flexxing" anywhere on anything. Deferring at all points to the RE's. Working on building consensus. I am truly grateful to an all-wise God this present ministry was NOT my first pastorate. I'da messed thigns up bad.

Pretty sure it is probably not a great idea to defer at *all* points to the REs. There may be many elders, but the church only has one pastor.

I think it's important to note that virtually all Presbyterian manuals of church government up until (ahem) ours, usually include some sort of phrase or language indicating that the elders "assist" the minister. And while based upon BCO 7-2 the PCA claims to be 2 office... the pages of the BCO are filled with internal inconsistency on the subject. While 2 office proponents wax mightily about the dignity and utility and importance of the REs, nonetheless the Minister of the Word relates uniquely as Pastor to the congregation. This reality is underscored by the fact that YOUR ordination and installation vows specifically reference you as being overseer of your particular flock and that you have the charge of your church... and the corresponding vows of the members demonstrate this unique office... all in ways that are different from the ordination vows of ruling elders (and deacons), which are identical to each other, and utterly lack those hugely significant references in the ordination/installation vows of a Minister.

I've noted that the Pastor, as Moderator, relates to the Session in a manner sort of akin (but obviously not exactly) to how the Speaker relates to the House in the US House of Representatives. In a sense he's "one of them," - though, in the case of the Pastor is not elected by them - and can be overridden by them, but he also has authority and prerogatives not shared by the other members of the Body, and he is clearly (and rightly) the most influential member in the House.

Pity the church, and the Pastor, of which some RE is more influential in the church than the Pastor.
 
In my layman's view at least, the Teaching Elder is teacher also of the Ruling Elders. The teacher must have some sort of authority over those taught, if only in the way of a special gift for teaching God's word. If the Ruling Elders think they have nothing to learn from the Teaching Elder, why aren't they teachers?
 
This reality is underscored by the fact that YOUR ordination and installation vows specifically reference you as being overseer of your particular flock and that you have the charge of your church... and the corresponding vows of the members demonstrate this unique office... all in ways that are different from the ordination vows of ruling elders (and deacons), which are identical to each other, and utterly lack those hugely significant references in the ordination/installation vows of a Minister.



Pity the church, and the Pastor, of which some RE is more influential in the church than the Pastor.
This was helpful. Q. 7-8 of the ordination vows are distinct for the TE overseer, and differ from the RE, who is termed an "officer" of the church. Responsibility and accountability of the TE seem to be the primary import of the differentiation of the vows of TE and RE. Authority in terms of # of votes and the power of the singular vote are equal, but the roles / duties are different. As such, the office of TE / overseer is unique from the office of RE.


BCO 21.5 -

7. Do you engage to be faithful and diligent in the exercise of all your duties as a Christian and a minister of the Gospel, whether personal or relational, private or public; and to endeavor by the grace of God to adorn the profession of the Gospel in your manner of life, and to walk with exemplary piety *before the flock of which God shall make you overseer?*

8. Are you now willing to *take the charge of this church,* agreeable to your declaration when accepting their call? And do you, relying upon God for strength, promise to discharge to it the duties of a pastor?
 
This was helpful. Q. 7-8 of the ordination vows are distinct for the TE overseer, and differ from the RE, who is termed an "officer" of the church. Responsibility and accountability of the TE seem to be the primary import of the differentiation of the vows of TE and RE. Authority in terms of # of votes and the power of the singular vote are equal, but the roles / duties are different. As such, the office of TE / overseer is unique from the office of RE.


BCO 21.5 -

7. Do you engage to be faithful and diligent in the exercise of all your duties as a Christian and a minister of the Gospel, whether personal or relational, private or public; and to endeavor by the grace of God to adorn the profession of the Gospel in your manner of life, and to walk with exemplary piety *before the flock of which God shall make you overseer?*

8. Are you now willing to *take the charge of this church,* agreeable to your declaration when accepting their call? And do you, relying upon God for strength, promise to discharge to it the duties of a pastor?
Correct, but even more astonishingly…. the Easter eggs of this distinction between offices are scattered throughout the BCO… For example, if “pastor” is just one of several terms used to describe any and every elder (as some two office proponents would have you believe) … then where does the BCO come off saying that “the pastor is, by virtue of his office, the moderator of the session” (as well as of congregational meetings) ? And if ruling elders are truly and fully equal in an egalitarian sense with teaching elders, then why aren’t the ruling elders as a body good enough and why does the BCO 20-2 specify that every church should be under the oversight of a minister, if the minister has no distinct oversight that can be differentiated apart from that of the Session?

Of course it’s because the pastor, as minister of the word, has charge of the church and is its principal overseer…. And given that the church is a creature of the Word, it flows logically that the office called to steward the Word and Sacrament, has a place of singular responsibility in the body... so much so that - check out BCO 21-7 and 24-6 ... while REs are involved and participate in ordination, the ordinance is only rightly administered by a minister.
 
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Of course, the solution is primarily to really own your pastoral identity and operate with the comfortable self-assurance of your authority that you simply exude that you are the Pastor.

So it falls upon you to be the principal author and proponent of the vision for your church, and you should attempt to get your elders on board and be open to their input to refine it, but most elders will rally around to support a clear and compelling vision presented by their pastor.
 
but most elders will rally around to support a clear and compelling vision presented by their pastor.
How did that work out for Coral Ridge and the pastor with the compelling vision, TT?

Or for a completely different situation at Highland Park, where the beloved long time and highly respected Clayton Bell was able to rally (to my recollection) 44% of the congregation (including a passel of billionaires and multimillionaires) to sustain his compelling vision for the future of the church and keep it in the PCUSA.

Or even closer to home for me, when the then pastor at Park Cities got the session on board with going with a contemporary worship for one of the services. But didn't get the deacons or choir on board. Special called meeting of the session within a week to take the issue back under consideration.

Even wins can end in disaster.
 
How did that work out for Coral Ridge and the pastor with the compelling vision, TT?

Or for a completely different situation at Highland Park, where the beloved long time and highly respected Clayton Bell was able to rally (to my recollection) 44% of the congregation (including a passel of billionaires and multimillionaires) to sustain his compelling vision for the future of the church and keep it in the PCUSA.

Or even closer to home for me, when the then pastor at Park Cities got the session on board with going with a contemporary worship for one of the services. But didn't get the deacons or choir on board. Special called meeting of the session within a week to take the issue back under consideration.

Even wins can end in disaster.

Speaking of Coral Ridge… Kennedy’s compelling vision was great!

Not really sure what you're trying to prove except that in the latter 2 examples we see latent congregational populism on display, and within the last example sheer insubordination on the part of some (deacons and "choir") to submit to the Session, as well as perhaps men on the session for whom the fear of man looms large. A session that hastily decides on something and then just as hastily backs away from it... that's a bad indicator.

Anyway, my observation stands as a true reflection of life in a godly society: the pastor is most definitely the first among equals, and any other ordering is unnatural and indicative of gross problems in the church.
 
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It has been argued (incorrectly), that TE (in his oath to take charge) is somehow in authority over the RE's or a "first among equals". There is nothing in the PCA BCO that teaches this. Quite the contrary, read the various sections that speak about how authority and power is excersided.

3-2. Ecclesiastical power, which is wholly spiritual, is twofold. The officers exercise it sometimes severally, as in preaching the Gospel, administering the Sacraments, reproving the erring, visiting the sick, and comforting the afflicted, which is the power of order; and they exercise it sometimes jointly in Church courts, after the form of judgment, which is the power of jurisdiction.

4-3. Its jurisdiction, being a joint power, is lodged in the church Session, which consists of its pastor, pastors, its associate pastor(s) and its ruling elders.

7-2. The ordinary and perpetual classes of office in the Church are elders and deacons. Within the class of elder are the two orders of teaching elders and ruling elders. The elders jointly have the government and spiritual oversight of the Church, including teaching. Only those elders who are specially gifted, called and trained by God to preach may serve as teaching elders. The office of deacon is not one of rule, but rather of service both to the physical and spiritual needs of the people. In accord with Scripture, these offices are open to men only.

8-1. This office is one of dignity and usefulness. The man who fills it has in Scripture different titles expressive of his various duties. As he has the oversight of the flock of Christ, he is termed bishop or pastor. As it is his duty to be spiritually fruitful, dignified, and prudent, an example to the flock, and to govern well in the house and Kingdom of Christ, he is termed presbyter or elder. As he expounds the Word, and by sound doctrine both exhorts and convinces the gainsayer, he is termed teacher. These titles do not indicate different grades of office, but all describe one and the same office.

8-5. When a man is called to labor as a teaching elder, it belongs to his order, in addition to those functions he shares with all other elders, to feed the flock by reading, expounding and preaching the Word of God and to administer the Sacraments. As he is sent to declare the will of God to sinners, and to beseech them to be reconciled to God through Christ, he is termed ambassador. As he bears glad tidings of salvation to the ignorant and perishing, he is termed evangelist. As he stands to proclaim the Gospel, he is termed preacher. As he dispenses the manifold grace of God, and the ordinances instituted by Christ, he is termed steward of the mysteries of God.

I would also note that, if an Elder is (by definition) a "first aong equals" when he is moderator then, by definition, I was first among all Presbyters within my Presbytery for a year and then lost that primacy when a new Elder took the role the following year.
 
It has been argued (incorrectly), that TE (in his oath to take charge) is somehow in authority over the RE's or a "first among equals". There is nothing in the PCA BCO that teaches this. Quite the contrary, read the various sections that speak about how authority and power is excersided.

3-2. Ecclesiastical power, which is wholly spiritual, is twofold. The officers exercise it sometimes severally, as in preaching the Gospel, administering the Sacraments, reproving the erring, visiting the sick, and comforting the afflicted, which is the power of order; and they exercise it sometimes jointly in Church courts, after the form of judgment, which is the power of jurisdiction.

4-3. Its jurisdiction, being a joint power, is lodged in the church Session, which consists of its pastor, pastors, its associate pastor(s) and its ruling elders.

7-2. The ordinary and perpetual classes of office in the Church are elders and deacons. Within the class of elder are the two orders of teaching elders and ruling elders. The elders jointly have the government and spiritual oversight of the Church, including teaching. Only those elders who are specially gifted, called and trained by God to preach may serve as teaching elders. The office of deacon is not one of rule, but rather of service both to the physical and spiritual needs of the people. In accord with Scripture, these offices are open to men only.

8-1. This office is one of dignity and usefulness. The man who fills it has in Scripture different titles expressive of his various duties. As he has the oversight of the flock of Christ, he is termed bishop or pastor. As it is his duty to be spiritually fruitful, dignified, and prudent, an example to the flock, and to govern well in the house and Kingdom of Christ, he is termed presbyter or elder. As he expounds the Word, and by sound doctrine both exhorts and convinces the gainsayer, he is termed teacher. These titles do not indicate different grades of office, but all describe one and the same office.

8-5. When a man is called to labor as a teaching elder, it belongs to his order, in addition to those functions he shares with all other elders, to feed the flock by reading, expounding and preaching the Word of God and to administer the Sacraments. As he is sent to declare the will of God to sinners, and to beseech them to be reconciled to God through Christ, he is termed ambassador. As he bears glad tidings of salvation to the ignorant and perishing, he is termed evangelist. As he stands to proclaim the Gospel, he is termed preacher. As he dispenses the manifold grace of God, and the ordinances instituted by Christ, he is termed steward of the mysteries of God.

I would also note that, if an Elder is (by definition) a "first aong equals" when he is moderator then, by definition, I was first among all Presbyters within my Presbytery for a year and then lost that primacy when a new Elder took the role the following year.
Rich, I understand that the early chapters of the BCO teach sort of what you’re saying, but not in a way the nullifies the very real pastoral oversight of a minister that is expressed later. (I was taught that as a matter of hermeneutics: that which comes later explains that which came earlier... lol.) But the problem is that in asserting what I think you're trying to assert is that it causes one to basically flatline or downplay the implications of several key points in the BCO, that drive home that the distinctions between the orders are much greater than some want to acknowledge... such as the differences in vows, the differences in ordination, or to avoid the natural answer so to why the pastor is automatically by virtue “of his office” (which office? Office of elder? Where does the BCO talk about “office of pastor” so that it can be said that the pastor is “by virtue of his office”) the moderator of the Session* without necessary agreement by the Session (and yes, I know of churches that don’t want the pastor to moderate despite with the BCO says… I’ve seen it.) , or about why despite there being a session, nonetheless a church needs to be under the oversight of a minister, etc. there are significant and frequent glimpses throughout that are problematic when one tries to say that the difference between the two orders is simply that one is allowed to preach more frequently than the other.

I think the obvious answer is that the BCO is a hodgepodge document that clearly harkens back in the majority of its cases to the traditional three-office understanding and two-office language was inserted at key points in the earlier chapters without necessarily massaging it out in the later chapters. But we’ve settled on two classes of office with two orders in the one class, OK.

But still, the BCO uses the term "office" in various ways, and there’s something unique about the pastor‘s “office” that is distinct from that of ruling elders. (And I won't point out that the BCO calling it "office" right out the gate introduces confusion into its assertion that there are two "offices.") And of course, there’s only 2 classes of office, and those are elder and deacon. But I think that the preponderance of the BCO effectively demonstrates that in practice, the distinction between the two orders subsumed under that class are perhaps greater than some want two-office folks wish to acknowledge.

Those distinctions between order are significant! And it’s not just played out in how frequently a man gets to preach, and I know that a man does not have to be ordained to preach, he “merely” needs to be “licensed”… The ordination to the ministry of the Word, the "office of the holy ministry" carries something beyond “mere” licensure. Amongst the more aggressive two-office crowd, there is the belief that elders can administer the sacraments, which is abhorrent. And even most who deny it still struggle to explain why, in a manner that consistently holds forth two-office principles. So the distinctions between the two orders of the class of elder are significant: So much so that when a man is ordained to the ministry, he is ordained as a minister (a term absolutely never used for ruling elders). (one of my gripes about BCO 8 is that the term "minister" is used three times more frequently in its pages than “teaching elder”, yet “minister” is never defined or described… It’s just suddenly inserted as an apparent synonym for a teaching elder.. I think there’s much needed polishing that could be done in regards to the BCO on this point.

All I’ve done in previous posts is to make observations from the BCO itself, and those observations create a picture. It’s up to you to explain why at the ordination of a minister, the man to be ordained gets on his knees at ordination, but a man to be ordained as a ruling elder or deacon don’t. It’s up to you to explain why the vows for a minister say he is accepting the charge of the church as overseer, (NOT “as an overseer” like some would expect given our 2 office commitments) and it’s up to you to explain why that’s not said at a ruling elders ordination, it’s up to you to explain why the BCO calls heads of families to come up and show reception and affection, etc., to the minister… But yet that doesn’t happen at a ruling elder's ordination. And we both know that it paints a very distinct picture even if you don’t wanna say it. I’m not asserting anything other than I’m pointing out observations from the BCO that do in fact, establish that there is a real difference.It also paints a different picture to observe that despite the presence of a session, the BCO calls for the congregation to be "under the pastoral oversight of a minister" which again refers to more than preaching the word and the presence of the sacraments which can be arranged for.

Of course the BCO prevents a minister from thinking he’s the supervisor/boss of the ruling elders… But frankly, it slaps back the idea that a ruling elder can think he’s an egalitarian peer with the minister. Indeed, at the ordination of a ruling elder, it is the members of the Session, to include the pastor, but give him the right hand of fellowship and welcome him into sharing in the ministry with them… but when a pastor is installed, it isn’t the Session that welcomes him to the team to share in the ministry with them… No, it’s the Presbytery who welcomes him and says that he’s sharing in the ministry with them. Even though he’s just been on boarded onto a session and in the day and day out grind of ministry he’s going to be doing virtually all of his work and ministry in that local church. The difference is may be subtle, but they are real, and they are profound.

In regards to the local church, which is the proper purview of the REs. (Which is why REs - and Deacons - oaths of office specify their authority as being "of this church" and you can only participate in higher courts when so permitted by your Session as a delegate, so every ruling elder doesn't get to participate all the time, each church gets X number of ruling elder delegates: you are not a member of your Presbytery. Only the Ministers are, and only they as TEs are automatically permitted (expected!) to be there. The differences are significant. Of course as delegates to the Presbytery, they serve as peers on committees, etc.

So I, like many, believe that the best practical language to describe it is as “first among equals" though my usage is reference point is primarily in terms of the local church.

But I say again, in terms of practice: pity the church in which a ruling elder has more influence than the pastor. The Session as a whole can override the pastor, sure. But there should be no single more influential person than the pastor.

*I suspect that the pastor "by virtue of his office" (again, which office) being the moderator - and look close, the Session cannot just call in someone else to be moderator without the concurrence of the pastor unless there's an emergency - and look at the congregational meeting: the pastor is the moderator, and if in the absence of a pastor even if the Session wants one of their own (despite them being elected already as elders), it still has to be voted on by the congregation. Not so the Pastor... and I think that is a reflection of but one of the implications that by oath and installation he accepts "the charge of the church" and so he is by default in the position to have "all authority to maintain order" etc... whereas since we have no bishops, no one is ordained or installed as having the charge of the Presbytery or GA and so it has to be voted on each time (though Presbyteries can appoint someone for a year).
 
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I can't keep up with all the assertions you make as if the establishment of the nature of the office (Elder) and joint powers are to be over-ridden later by some hermeneutical method that is entirely of you own assumption.

My point is not to downplay the distinction between the orders within the office of elder. I believe in the order of the TE/Pasor/Minister. I don't believe that RE's should administer sacraments (or even provide the benediction).

My point is more basic in that the BCO is clear that it belongs to the office that all are overseers/elders/teacher (as the BCO says). It delineates certain spheres within the work of a Church that belong to certain persons. For instance, the "several" language delineates Word and Sacrament to the TE but it belongs JOINTLY in other activities with respect to affairs of the Church.

Further, you are confusing language that touches upon the fact that the minister taking "charge" of a particular congregation owes to the fact that the RE's are already under that charge in prior sections (owing to their office). Unil the minister is installed/ordained to a particular work he lacks the aurhotrity over that particular work. When you look back at preliinary principles (for instance) it is the congregation that has the authority to choose the men to whom they will submit. The TE only then recives that authority during installation and then serves in the joint powers that the Session has to Oversee/Rule/Shephed.

I also do not deny that the lead Pastor is given a sphere of authority to certain actions.

I'm not attempting to remove the distinction between the two orders, but merely correcting your erroneous notions where you are failing to see the various kinds of authority that the order of a TE has to moderate, convene, preach, administer sacraments, etc while noting that he then jointely has the shared role of overseer, presbyter, shepherd with the Session. The BCO is not as "hodge podge" as you would prefer to assume that his specific aress of authority are still within a broader set of joint powers and not exercised in a way where his "sevral" excercise of authority places him "above" the Session in the exercsie of joint powers.

The only person arguing for "pity" for a Church where a single man exercises greater inflluence over the Church is you. I am not arguing for any single individual to do so. You are. I believe in Presbtyerian government.
 
I can't keep up with all the assertions you make as if the establishment of the nature of the office (Elder) and joint powers are to be over-ridden later by some hermeneutical method that is entirely of you own assumption.

My point is not to downplay the distinction between the orders within the office of elder. I believe in the order of the TE/Pasor/Minister. I don't believe that RE's should administer sacraments (or even provide the benediction).

My point is more basic in that the BCO is clear that it belongs to the office that all are overseers/elders/teacher (as the BCO says). It delineates certain spheres within the work of a Church that belong to certain persons. For instance, the "several" language delineates Word and Sacrament to the TE but it belongs JOINTLY in other activities with respect to affairs of the Church.

Further, you are confusing language that touches upon the fact that the minister taking "charge" of a particular congregation owes to the fact that the RE's are already under that charge in prior sections (owing to their office). Unil the minister is installed/ordained to a particular work he lacks the aurhotrity over that particular work. When you look back at preliinary principles (for instance) it is the congregation that has the authority to choose the men to whom they will submit. The TE only then recives that authority during installation and then serves in the joint powers that the Session has to Oversee/Rule/Shephed.

I also do not deny that the lead Pastor is given a sphere of authority to certain actions.

I'm not attempting to remove the distinction between the two orders, but merely correcting your erroneous notions where you are failing to see the various kinds of authority that the order of a TE has to moderate, convene, preach, administer sacraments, etc while noting that he then jointely has the shared role of overseer, presbyter, shepherd with the Session. The BCO is not as "hodge podge" as you would prefer to assume that his specific aress of authority are still within a broader set of joint powers and not exercised in a way where his "sevral" excercise of authority places him "above" the Session in the exercsie of joint powers.

The only person arguing for "pity" for a Church where a single man exercises greater inflluence over the Church is you. I am not arguing for any single individual to do so. You are. I believe in Presbtyerian government.
I do too! But again, the distinctions i’ve noted throughout the BCO are real and present. And they mean something.

Interesting and humorous to me that the two guys who read the BCO so as to so he has no authority beyond any other member of the Session (which I think is a demonstrably untrue statement) also expressed the idea that the pastor can’t vote except to break a tie. Coincidence? :lol:

Just playing… But it’s an interesting observation. :bouncy:
 
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I do too! But again, the distinctions i’ve noted throughout the BCO are real and present. And they mean something.

Interesting and humorous to me that the two guys who read the BCO so as to so he has no authority beyond any other member of the Session (which I think is a demonstrably untrue statement) also expressed the idea that the pastor can’t vote except to break a tie. Coincidence?
Well, that's not me.

Truth be told, I do lean toward a three office view. My only point is that, even with such distinctions, there would remain a distinction between several and joint powers.

I also think that, asa a general rule, most ruling elders are far less knoweldagable than TE's in theological knowledge/preparation. It doesn' mean that the joint powers are diminished in such situations but it does deman humility on all. For the RE, it demands humility to be instructed by the TE in things he doesn't undersatnd, and it involves humitliy (many times) from the TE in decisions that the Session makes where he thinks the RE's are making the wrong call.

We ordained aTE at Presbytery in 2010 who was a paedocommunionist and it was a majority of tE's making a bucnch of shlpshod theological arguments. As much as I was disappointed by the lack of theological knoledge of the many elders present, I still had to have the humility to abide by a decision beased on gross theological ignorance are the part of about 60 TEs and RES.
 
.... the pastor can’t vote except to break a tie. Coincidence?
At least at the time of the Westminster Assembly, it was historically presbyterian polity that, at the congregational level:
(1) the moderator did not vote except to break a tie
(2) the minister of the Word was the moderator ("It is most expedient that, in these meetings, one whose office is to labour in the word and doctrine, do moderate in their proceedings." - The Form of Presbyterian Church Government according to the Westminster Standards )

So the de facto "rule" was that the ministers didn't vote but it was not by virtue of them being ministers, but by virtue of them being the moderator. I believe there is a lot of wisdom in the minister not being on record voting one way of the other the majority of the time (and if he is constantly breaking ties, there are major issues in the session that probably require the intervention of those outside of it).
 
also expressed the idea that the pastor can’t vote except to break a tie.
Most meetings are likely run under some version of Roberts Rules - most likely Newly Revised - a version modern enough that I have no particular familiarity with. As far as I know, the tie breaking provision isn't in the BCO. If you can convince the body to dispense with any standard parliamentary rules, free to vote.
 
Most meetings are likely run under some version of Roberts Rules - most likely Newly Revised - a version modern enough that I have no particular familiarity with. As far as I know, the tie breaking provision isn't in the BCO. If you can convince the body to dispense with any standard parliamentary rules, free to vote.
As pointed out previously, it has been ruled that the BCO inherently authorizes the pastor to vote. Roberts rules are not binding on local churches, and even if they wanted them to be…. BCO 25–7 specifies that any charter or bylaws the church may have must be in line with the BCO and are subordinate to it. Thus if a church were to have bylaws forbidding the pastor from voting, or appealing to a document such as Roberts rules that may be placed into the bylaws as authoritative ,… The court has already ruled that the BCO gives the right to vote to the pastor, so he has reasonable grounds for complaint.
 
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I just want to say: if anyone reads my comments as somehow trying to assert that the pastor is the Boss Hog of the church, or the Prince of the church or something like that… I apologize for not communicating clearly.

My own understanding of leadership is principally thus: if the pastor by vow and oath accepts the charge of the church, his principal duty is not to be in charge so much as to be the principal caregiver and servant of those in his charge. In my own particular expression of pastoral care, I actually focus my ministry on my elders and then the deacons, and primarily have them focus on the congregation at large while I handle emergencies and make sure people don’t slip through the cracks . Maybe call it “trickle down ministry” but the model I use is that I try to invest heavily in those who are called to lead and serve others so as to empower them and equip them to fulfill their callings. Ours is servant leadership after all. We are called to emulate the way of Christ. And while he has authority to maintain order and such… The office is characterized primarily by duties and responsibilities rather than by rights and privileges.

Ruling elders are of vital importance, and they have a connection to the flock that is different and distinct than the connection I have and they’re able to run interference and stand in the gap mightily in their perspective as a layman with a “normal“ job is of profound importance. And that was kind of one of the intents of Presbyterianism: the ruling elder is a layman: and it keeps governance from being solely in the hands of the clergy.
 
It's true that the text of the PCA BCO retains artifacts of prior versions.

In the 1973 BCO, chapter 8 was entitled "The Teaching Elder" and chapter 9 was entitled "The Ruling Elder". In 1980, the two chapters were combined into a new chapter 8, entitled "The Elder", which retained much of the wording used in the former two chapters that was specific to teaching elders or to ruling elders.

BCO 1973, ch. 8, The Teaching Elder, para. 1 read,

This office is the first in the Church, both for dignity and usefulness. The person who fills it has in Scripture different titles expressive of his various duties. As he has the oversight of the flock of Christ, he is termed Bishop. As he feeds them with spiritual food, he is termed Pastor. As he serves Christ in the Church, he is termed Minister. As it is His duty to be grave and prudent, and an example to the flock, and to govern well in the house and kingdom of Christ, he is termed Presbyter or Elder. As he is sent to declare the will of God to sinners, and to beseech them to be reconciled to God through Christ, he is termed Ambassador. As he bears the glad tidings of salvation to the ignorant and perishing, he is termed Evangelist. As he stands to proclaim the Gospel, he is termed Preacher. As he expounds the Word, and by sound doctrine both exhorts and convinces the gainsayer, he is termed Teacher. As he dispenses the manifold grace of God, and the ordinances instituted by Christ, he is termed Steward of the mysteries of God. These titles do not indicate different grades of office, but all describe one and the same officer.

The wording of the above section originates, with minor changes, in chapter 3 of the original PCUSA BCO from 1789, and for almost 200 years applied only to Teaching Elders. The present 8-1, which is meant to apply both to Teaching and Ruling Elders, is a substantially revised version of this older text but retains much of the original titular language.

BCO 1973, ch. 9, The Ruling Elder, para. 1 read,

As there were in the Church, under the law, Elders of the people for the government thereof, so in the gospel Church, Christ has furnished others besides the Ministers of the Word with gifts and commission to govern when called thereunto, which officers are entitled Ruling Elders.

The above text is retained with minor changes in the present 8-8, and likewise the 1973 9-2 is retained with minor changes in the present 8-9. The former 9-2 read,

These Ruling Elders possess the same authority and eligibility to office in the courts of the Church as the Ministers of the Word. They should, moreover, cultivate zealously their aptness to teach the Bible and should improve every opportunity of doing so, to the end that destitute places, mission points, and churches without Pastors may be supplied with religious services.

Reading the 1973 BCO, it's clear that the words "minister" and "overseer"/"bishop" were originally applied specifically to Teaching Elders, but the 1980 combination of chapters 8 and 9 left those words in a new chapter that applied both to Teaching and Ruling elders. Where "minister" and "overseer" are used in other chapters not affected by the 1980 revision, we can understand that these words were used in accordance with the pre-1980 versions of chapter 8 and chapter 9.

See below for historical information about the present chapter 8:

 
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It's true that the text of the PCA BCO retains artifacts of prior versions.

In the 1973 BCO, chapter 8 was entitled "The Teaching Elder" and chapter 9 was entitled "The Ruling Elder". In 1980, the two chapters were combined into a new chapter 8, entitled "The Elder", which retained much of the wording used in the former two chapters that was specific to teaching elders or to ruling elders.

BCO 1973, ch. 8, The Teaching Elder, para. 1 read,

This office is the first in the Church, both for dignity and usefulness. The person who fills it has in Scripture different titles expressive of his various duties. As he has the oversight of the flock of Christ, he is termed Bishop. As he feeds them with spiritual food, he is termed Pastor. As he serves Christ in the Church, he is termed Minister. As it is His duty to be grave and prudent, and an example to the flock, and to govern well in the house and kingdom of Christ, he is termed Presbyter or Elder. As he is sent to declare the will of God to sinners, and to beseech them to be reconciled to God through Christ, he is termed Ambassador. As he bears the glad tidings of salvation to the ignorant and perishing, he is termed Evangelist. As he stands to proclaim the Gospel, he is termed Preacher. As he expounds the Word, and by sound doctrine both exhorts and convinces the gainsayer, he is termed Teacher. As he dispenses the manifold grace of God, and the ordinances instituted by Christ, he is termed Steward of the mysteries of God. These titles do not indicate different grades of office, but all describe one and the same officer.

The wording of the above section originates, with minor changes, in chapter 3 of the original PCUSA BCO from 1789, and for almost 200 years applied only to Teaching Elders. The present 8-1, which is meant to apply both to Teaching and Ruling Elders, is a substantially revised version of this older text but retains much of the original titular language.

BCO 1973, ch. 9, The Ruling Elder, para. 1 read,

As there were in the Church, under the law, Elders of the people for the government thereof, so in the gospel Church, Christ has furnished others besides the Ministers of the Word with gifts and commission to govern when called thereunto, which officers are entitled Ruling Elders.
The above text is retained with minor changes in the present 8-8, and likewise the 1973 9-2 is retained with minor changes in the present 8-9. The former 9-2 read,

These Ruling Elders possess the same authority and eligibility to office in the courts of the Church as the Ministers of the Word. They should, moreover, cultivate zealously their aptness to teach the Bible and should improve every opportunity of doing so, to the end that destitute places, mission points, and churches without Pastors may be supplied with religious services.

Reading the 1973 BCO, it's clear that the words "minister" and "overseer"/"bishop" were originally applied specifically to Teaching Elders, but in the 1980 combination of chapters 8 and 9 left those words in a new chapter that applied both to Teaching and Ruling elders. Where "minister" and "overseer" are used in other chapters not affected by the 1980 revision, we can understand that these words were used in accordance with the pre-1980 versions of chapter 8 and chapter 9.
Now THAT is illuminating. I for one would have staunchly opposed the changes on every grounds imaginable. The older version makes so much more sense.

What manner of self loathing was it that led to so many being willing to repudiate such a historic and clear understanding for the muddied statement we now possess?

Where can I get my hands on an old 1973 chapter 8 and 9?
 
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I apologize upfront that I haven't followed this thread to know if this is already stated clearly, but the TE, the preacher, determines the preaching ministry, the topics to be preached. While they certainly may give input, the REs are not to micromanage that. They don't have the tools for that.
 
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