Paedo-Baptism Answers Re-baptism

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Ploutos

Puritan Board Graduate
Let's just say if I were doing to do something similar for Italy, it would be really hard.

This is a link to the Waldensian Old Paths organization, roughly comparable to the Gereformeerde Bond in the Dutch (former) state church.


There are a lot more Reformed churches in Italy than Sweden, but many are Reformed Baptist. Fine for Baptists, and I'm glad they're there, and a good place to visit when a tourist is in Italy on the Lord's Day. But that's not going to work for people living in Italy rather than visiting Italy since most of the time they won't be able to join without rebaptism.
This post raised an interesting hypothetical exercise for me.

If, for circumstance beyond your control, your found yourself in a situation where the only acceptable church option was a Reformed Baptist church - would you be re-baptized, or simply attend as a non-member? Or would it be some sort of "none of the above" option, such as doing home church or attending while looking for the first opportunity to move somewhere else?

On my end, I would do everything in my power to avoid being in such a situation to begin with, but the hypothetical exercise rules out that option. I would likely remain as a non-member.
 
So I guess that's another question I'd have to think about. For the sake of argument, let's presume the church allows me to partake of the Lord's Supper as a non-member. The last two Reformed Baptist churches I've attended had that policy.

If the church didn't allow me to partake of the Lord's Supper, they would essentially be declaring me to be a non-believer or effectively under discipline for unrepentant sin. In that case, the number of viable options for church attendance would decrease from 1 to 0.
 
If the church didn't allow me to partake of the Lord's Supper, they would essentially be declaring me to be a non-believer or effectively under discipline for unrepentant sin. In that case, the number of viable options for church attendance would decrease from 1 to 0.
I think if I was in that situation, I'd probably base my options on the amount of drive it'd take to obtain the Lord's Supper elsewhere. I'm fairly comfortable being denied the Lord's Supper if the church is Baptist (I'm not baptized according to them), Lutheran (I don't view it the same way), or even a close or near closed communion setting until they get to know me. Historically speaking, it's not a given for a visitor or different confessional adherent to get the Lord's Supper just by being there, and it's kind of related to the Good Fences Make Good Neighbors comment I made on the Dutch Denomination thread.

I'm not a prepper in the physical domain but I've got a very large and long church bug-out bag list of my options, probably down to the 10th to 15th level options for everything related to being no longer (temp or permanent) able to drive, being economically unable to drive long distances, being physically disabled, my parents requiring much more active daily care, church blowing up/splitting, and so on. And I've got at least 4-5 denominations in that list too.

First, determine one's absolute weekly church driving distance. For some, this is a solid 2 hours. Others max out at 30 minutes. If needing to be a super-close full-time caregiver, it might be less than 10 minutes. Draw a box around whatever that line is.

Then if you're in the situation JP's describing where you won't be able to partake at the best local option, see what the best sound church option that you could get to 1x per month or every 6-8 weeks, perhaps driving 2-4 hours on Saturday night and staying with a family is. Then work out an arrangement with them and your best local option to ensure spiritual care. A faithful church, even if it doesn't allow communion, will very much want to ensure even a weird sheep is taken care of, especially when they're in providential circumstances that make the situation difficult to actually get home. Weekly or more regular communion is valuable, but a believer can survive and even thrive in harsher conditions as long as it's not dismissed.

For those in real spiritual deserts that it'd be more like a plane ride, then look for the best option you can visit inexpensively 1-2x per year and pray for a church plant opportunity in your area. All of this is assuming that moving is not an option.
 
I think if I was in that situation, I'd probably base my options on the amount of drive it'd take to obtain the Lord's Supper elsewhere. I'm fairly comfortable being denied the Lord's Supper if the church is Baptist (I'm not baptized according to them), Lutheran (I don't view it the same way), or even a close or near closed communion setting until they get to know me. Historically speaking, it's not a given for a visitor or different confessional adherent to get the Lord's Supper just by being there, and it's kind of related to the Good Fences Make Good Neighbors comment I made on the Dutch Denomination thread.

I'm not a prepper in the physical domain but I've got a very large and long church bug-out bag list of my options, probably down to the 10th to 15th level options for everything related to being no longer (temp or permanent) able to drive, being economically unable to drive long distances, being physically disabled, my parents requiring much more active daily care, church blowing up/splitting, and so on. And I've got at least 4-5 denominations in that list too.

First, determine one's absolute weekly church driving distance. For some, this is a solid 2 hours. Others max out at 30 minutes. If needing to be a super-close full-time caregiver, it might be less than 10 minutes. Draw a box around whatever that line is.

Then if you're in the situation JP's describing where you won't be able to partake at the best local option, see what the best sound church option that you could get to 1x per month or every 6-8 weeks, perhaps driving 2-4 hours on Saturday night and staying with a family is. Then work out an arrangement with them and your best local option to ensure spiritual care. A faithful church, even if it doesn't allow communion, will very much want to ensure even a weird sheep is taken care of, especially when they're in providential circumstances that make the situation difficult to actually get home. Weekly or more regular communion is valuable, but a believer can survive and even thrive in harsher conditions as long as it's not dismissed.

For those in real spiritual deserts that it'd be more like a plane ride, then look for the best option you can visit inexpensively 1-2x per year and pray for a church plant opportunity in your area. All of this is assuming that moving is not an option.
I don't think I've ever met a "church prepper" before, so this was an insightful and highly intriguing answer for me. Thanks so much for sharing these thoughts. I guess I take for granted having regular access to the Lord's Table, so have never had to think through what I'd do if I didn't.

Presuming the RB church allows you to partake of the Lord's Supper (whether immediately or after a "probationary period" - doesn't really matter to me if I have to wait 3-6 months for a church to get to know who I am, since that's a reasonable thing for them to do) - going back to the OP, would you be re-baptized, or would you simply continue to attend as a non-member? Or some other option?
 
I don't think I've ever met a "church prepper" before, so this was an insightful and highly intriguing answer for me. Thanks so much for sharing these thoughts. I guess I take for granted having regular access to the Lord's Table, so have never had to think through what I'd do if I didn't.

Presuming the RB church allows you to partake of the Lord's Supper (whether immediately or after a "probationary period" - doesn't really matter to me if I have to wait 3-6 months for a church to get to know who I am, since that's a reasonable thing for them to do) - going back to the OP, would you be re-baptized, or would you simply continue to attend as a non-member? Or some other option?
I would not be rebaptized (and for the Lutheran side, I wouldn't switch views on Communion). I wouldn't be disruptive in a Baptist [Lutheran] church but a conviction is important even and perhaps especially when it causes hardship.
 
If, for circumstance beyond your control, your found yourself in a situation where the only acceptable church option was a Reformed Baptist church - would you be re-baptized, or simply attend as a non-member?
I am always very shocked and saddened to hear of Reformed Baptist churches pressuring new attendees from other Reformed churches to be "re-baptized" (as if there even is such a thing). While already having numerous theological issues, this, to me, is pastorally irresponsible and can do much harm to one's assurance down the line (i.e. "if my baptism wasn't valid the first time around, is it valid the second time? What if I didn't really mean it the second time? Do I need to be baptized yet again?") And this isn't even a hypotetical concern, as I have known many who struggle with this issue.

My answer is therefore with Belgic Article 34:
...Therefore we believe, that every man, who is earnestly studious of obtaining life eternal, ought to be but once baptized with this only baptism, without ever repeating the same: since we cannot be born twice. Neither doth this baptism only avail us, at the time when the water is poured upon us, and received by us, but also through the whole course of our life.

Therefore we detest the error of the Anabaptists, who are not content with the one only baptism they have once received, and moreover condemn the baptism of the infants of believers, whom we believe ought to be baptized and sealed with the sign of the covenant, as the children in Israel formerly were circumcised, upon the same promises which are made unto our children. And indeed Christ shed his blood no less for the washing of the children of the faithful, than for adult persons; and therefore they ought to receive the sign and sacrament of that, which Christ hath done for them; as the Lord commanded in the law, that they should be made partakers of the sacrament of Christ's suffering and death, shortly after they were born, by offering for them a lamb, which was a sacrament of Jesus Christ. Moreover, what circumcision was to the Jews, that baptism is for our children. And for this reason Paul calls baptism the circumcision of Christ.
And, to answer the question more personally, I have no desire to be a separatist home-churcher. I would faithfully attend a gospel-preaching RB church until such a time as I could move to a location with a solid Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed option, or seek an organic church plant (which the FCC is doing a wonderful job with!)
 
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I am always very shocked and saddened to hear of Reformed Baptist churches pressuring new attendees from other Reformed churches to be "re-baptized" (as if there even is such a thing). While already having numerous theological issues, this, to me, is pastorally irresponsible and can do much harm to one's assurance down the line (i.e. "if my baptism wasn't valid the first time around, is it valid the second time? What if I didn't really mean it the second time? Do I need to be baptized yet again?") And this isn't even a hypotetical concern, as I have known many who struggle with this issue.

My answer is therefore with Belgic Article 34:

And, to answer the question more personally, I have no desire to be a separatist home-churcher. I would faithfully attend a gospel-preaching RB church until such a time as I could move to a location with a solid Presbyterian or Dutch Reformed option, or seek an organic church plant (which the FCC is doing a wonderful job with!)
Trying to be charitable, I think that insisting on re-baptism does seem to be consistent with Baptist theology, and to do otherwise would be to take the foundation out from their system on this point - but I agree that it's wrong.
 
Trying to be charitable, I think that insisting on re-baptism does seem to be consistent with Baptist theology, and to do otherwise would be to take the foundation out from their system on this point - but I agree that it's wrong.
Right. I would say that it is consistent with modern Baptist practice, although this is not historically the case. Kiffin and Bunyan's disagreement over open communion centred on whether those who had received infant baptism could participate in the Lord's Supper. Bunyan, unlike the Strict and Particular Baptists, did not advocate for any sort of re-baptism, to my knowledge.
 
I would not be rebaptized (and for the Lutheran side, I wouldn't switch views on Communion). I wouldn't be disruptive in a Baptist [Lutheran] church but a conviction is important even and perhaps especially when it causes hardship.
I suppose I should start a separate thread for this, but... assuming you would be allowed to partake of communion at a Lutheran church, would you? (I'm sure this would be allowed in the ELCA and forbidden in the WELS - couldn't make any sort of an educated guess with the LCMS.)
 
I suppose I should start a separate thread for this, but... assuming you would be allowed to partake of communion at a Lutheran church, would you? (I'm sure this would be allowed in the ELCA and forbidden in the WELS - couldn't make any sort of an educated guess with the LCMS.)
ELCA - Many reasons no. Plus they hold to Augsburg without the Variata. Maybe a fluffy but actually evangelical church that's basically unionist, I'd consider IF they preached the Gospel.
LCMS - If they're letting me commune, outside of a stuck on a desert island with an LCMS highly unusual situation, it is extremely problematic and shows bad judgment on the minister's part.
WELS - Yeah that's not happening.

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I've heard the Finnish/Scandinavians can be a little more chill about that with Reformed, in part because their book of concord doesn't include the Solid Declaration on the Formula of Concord [I think it's that one], which fully slams the door on the Reformed.

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Re: church prepping, if I can drive but something happens to my church, I've got 3-4 major PCA options I'd immediately consider because they have evening services. If my parents need full time very close care, there's a PCA walking distance to their house and a Reformed Baptist church a little further away that has an evening service. If I suddenly can't drive (like I break my leg badly), I'd probably do the same approach as the parents needing care. If the PCA in town all collectively decides to take wild psychedelics and turn into the PCUSA overnight, I know of an Anglo-Catholic REC and Missouri Synod Lutheran church I'd both consider (almost certainly go Lutheran between the two), along with a Reformed Anglican church in Fort Worth. Farther out, I'd have OPC and FCC options. There's also some Calvinistic Baptist churches I'd consider on an attending basis, but I'd have similar issues as with Lutherans. There's stuff in between of course.
 
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LCMS - If they're letting me commune, outside of a stuck on a desert island with an LCMS highly unusual situation, it is extremely problematic and shows bad judgment on the minister's part.
My claim to fame is that I, back in my Baptist days, was allowed to take communion at an LCMS church. I specifically told the minister that I was a Calvinist and Baptist and he just asked “do you belong to a church that preaches the gospel?”
Not sure I’d have gone up for communion now.. but that one’s always puzzled me a bit. The LCMS church was a bit more remote but probably gets a lot of out-of-town people, so who knows
 
My claim to fame is that I, back in my Baptist days, was allowed to take communion at an LCMS church. I specifically told the minister that I was a Calvinist and Baptist and he just asked “do you belong to a church that preaches the gospel?”
Not sure I’d have gone up for communion now.. but that one’s always puzzled me a bit. The LCMS church was a bit more remote but probably gets a lot of out-of-town people, so who knows
The minister DOES have discretion to do it, and I was admitted similarly while attending and witnessing a friend's son's baptism, but that was when I was a lot more like hmm that's weird instead of hmm that's not a good sign for them. I do think there's a look the other way aspect for people in legitimately difficult circumstances - say taking care of an aging parent and it's the best/only orthodox church around as is the case in many parts of the country. It's unionist but compassionate and meant to be an exception, though primarily it'd be meant to admit a high church Anglo-Catholic Anglican or a confessional ELCA type and never a Reformed person of either Calvinist or Zwinglian disposition.

I went to another church where I was very clear I was an Orthodox Presbyterian and held the Calvinist view of communion. He offered to let me commune but I declined out of respect for the LCMS.

I actually had some great conversations with both members and the pastors at a confessional church where I plainly did not commune. They'll pray a prayer of blessing if you cross your arms, similar to how an elder or pastor might pray for a non-communing child in our settings.

I'll probably be going to an LCMS service in Big Bend for my evening service next month on a vacation after going to an REC in the morning (Anything NAPARC or Reformed Baptist is a multi-hour drive away). Out of respect, I plan to identify myself and indicate that I don't plan to commune but will accept a blessing.
 
On the two questions asked:

1. Rebaptism is not going to happen. My baptism was about as bad as could happen and still be legitimate -- unbelieving parents with an unbelieving pastor in a liberal church that used the Trinitarian form and didn't officially deny the Trinity, but probably most of their people didn't understand it and certainly they did not teach it. To make matters worse, their motives were wrong. My father, to his credit, refused to promise to bring me up in the Catholic faith which he had rejected so I couldn't be baptized as a Catholic, while my grandmother refused to enter a home with an unbaptized baby out of fear of sending me to hell if she dropped me, so my mother came up with the idea of joining a liberal Protestant church to get me baptized. That's baptism out of "custom and superstition" (quoting some Dutch documents) if there ever was such a thing.

Even some Reformed elders in previous churches I attended have had to have their pastors explain to them that Reformed people are NOT Donatists, and as long as a church does not officially and formally deny the Trinity, its baptism must be accepted even under the most aberrant circumstances because the efficacy of the sacrament does NOT depend upon the worthiness of the person administering it. Apart from Unitarians, JWs, Mormons or Oneness Pentecostals, virtually every baptism we're going to run into the modern world needs to be accepted. I'm well aware of the Southern Presbyterian history on rejecting Roman Catholic baptism. They were simply wrong, and badly so. Virtually nobody else in the Reformed world agreed on that point even back then, and certainly nobody agreed in the Reformation era. There are serious consequences if we start rejecting Roman Catholic baptism because we're on better theological grounds to reject mainline Protestant baptism. If we do that, practically speaking, we've turned into de facto Baptists at best, or Donatists at worst, since nobody can be sure their baptism will be considered valid, and all depends on the orthodoxy of the minister who performed the baptism and the church to which he belonged.

2. Reformed Baptists differ on whether they will accept people to the Lord's Table who are from non-Baptist churches. Some will even refuse to admit people to the Table who are members of other Reformed Baptist churches on the grounds that they are not members of the local church. I am aware of a case in which the pastor's daughter, who had transferred to a church near the college where she was attending, was not admitted to the Table in her father's church, not because of any doctrinal disagreement but because she wasn't a member anymore. Other Reformed Baptists would regard at least some Reformed people baptized as babies as being in honest but sincere error and admit them to communion, after examination of their personal testimony of Christian conversion, by way of exception if there are no non-Baptist churches in the area that are Reformed, but would never admit them to membership.

I'm aware of at least one fairly well-known Reformed Baptist church that will not only admit Reformed people baptized as babies to membership but allow them to teach, though not to serve in church office.

The example of Bunyan's view on baptism and communion seems to carry far more weight for Reformed Baptists today than it did for the Particular Baptists of Bunyan's own era, in which he seems to have been considered an inconsistent anomaly.

We need to deal with Reformed Baptists on a case-by-case basis and ask the specific situation in the local church. It can and will differ significantly from one church to another.
 
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Other Reformed Baptists would regard at least some Reformed people baptized as babies as being in honest but sincere error and admit them to communion, after examination of their personal testimony of Christian conversion, by way of exception if there are no non-Baptist churches in the area that are Reformed, but would never admit them to membership.

I'm aware of at least one fairly well-known Reformed Baptist church that will not only admit Reformed people baptized as babies to membership but allow them to teach, though not to serve in church office.

The example of Bunyan's view on baptism and communion seems to carry far more weight for Reformed Baptists today than it did for the Particular Baptists of Bunyan's own era, in which he seems to have been considered an inconsistent anomaly.
This is a good point, and something where Reformed Baptists are distinct from confessional Lutherans on this point. For Confessional Lutherans, admitting a confessed Calvinist to the supper is basically shouted against by the confessions, absent highly unusual circumstances, while it's quite an open and legitimate debate among Reformed Baptist churches, especially because by nature the polity is congregational and thus a church-by-church difference in practice is to be expected and is NOT an inherent marker of problems or latitudinarianism.
 
Here's a different situation of "re-baptism" :

My wife was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church as an infant. We count this her true baptism. Fast forward a number of decades: I was co-pastoring a 1689 Baptist church (helping the pastor, a friend, with a fairly large congregation, until we could raise up another elder), and my wife (Pola) was also serving in the church, doing whatever was needed there. She was asked to teach the women, in their frequent women's Bible studies.

But they counted her as unbaptized, and unable to be a member. So I told them, she was already genuinely baptized as an infant (everyone knew I was Presbyterian / Reformed, and would not teach against their standards), but for the sake of your consciences I will allow her to be baptized by you.

My consience was clean, as I declared she was already baptized, and their dunking her in the water was for their sakes, not hers. Not all here may agree with what I allowed, but before the Lord I did it.

This was one of the great church experiences for both of us, being loved by all, and able to serve those we loved.
 
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As you know, Steve Rafalsky, I try to be very gentle with men pastoring in areas where there are virtually no Reformed churches of any type. Sovereign grace is more important than either church polity or baptism. I want to see more Reformed churches, and in very difficult settings, that means keeping secondaries secondary.

However, what you did (or more precisely, what your wife did) is something I could not do. I leave that to the conscience of the brothers and sisters involved. A case can be made, and has been made, by Reformed people that Roman Catholic baptism, and by extension, Eastern Orthodox baptism, is invalid. I do not agree. But because there are people in the Reformed world who DO make that case, I need to be careful not to follow some of the extreme people in the Reformed world who elevate every article and point of doctrine to the highest place on which all dissent is not just error but heresy. Your specific situation is complicated enough that I don't presume to tell others what to do, only to say that I could not do it.

Some questions I would ask should I ever be in your situation:

1. A Reformed Baptist church asking a paedobaptist man to be their pastor normally requires approval of his call by the presbytery. This situation is problematic enough, due to the inevitable problems that will arise, that the advice of brothers needs to be asked in advance no matter what someone's views may be on church government and presbyterian polity. For ordained ministers in most, perhaps all, of the Presbyterian denominations in NAPARC, consent of their presbytery would need to be sought and obtained with serious prior discussion. Same for the consistories of most, perhaps all, of the "continental Reformed" (read Dutch Reformed plus the Germans in the RCUS) denominations in NAPARC. I cannot imagine an OPC presbytery allowing this, but there are probably some PCA presbyteries that would. If a man has presented this case to his presbytery and the brothers in supervision over him say, "This is a hard case but we leave this to your conscience," or "Go ahead, that's fine," the man has done what he needs to do by submitting to the counsel of his brothers in the faith and specifically those with authority over him.

2. If the Reformed Baptist church has brought a ruling elder of Presbyterian/Reformed convictions into leadership in their church, the formalities of approval of the terms of call by the presbytery or local consistory, and the man remaining a member of and under the authority of his presbytery/consistory, may not apply. But I know that if I allowed my wife to be rebaptized, almost any confessional and conservative church I know that adheres to the Three Forms of Unity would say I am forever barred from ever holding any church office or teaching role again.

It's not relevant to your situation, but my wife was baptized as an adult following profession in a Korean Presbyterian church -- her mother was converted some years after her birth, her father was not converted until she was in graduate school, so she was not baptized as a baby and needed to be baptized following profession, and that means some but not all Baptist churches would accept her baptism though it was not by full immersion. That means if I were ever in your situation, the Reformed Baptist church would likely accept my wife into membership but not me. I suppose if there were a Reformed Baptist church somewhere that would permit me to remain a member of a church that baptizes babies while serving in their leadership, I might consider the situation and might say yes, and then ask the Reformed Baptist church why, if they are really committed to believers baptism, they are allowing an "unbaptized man" to lead them.

But again, I know very well how hard it is to work in areas where the Reformed faith is almost unknown, and people of differing views have to work together or there will be no Reformed church at all.

Blessings on you in both your ecclesiastical and medical situations.

Here's a different situation of "re-baptism" :

My wife was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church as an infant. We count this her true baptism. Fast forward a number of decades: I was co-pastoring a 1689 Baptist church (helping the pastor, a friend, with a fairly large congregation, until we could raise up another elder), and my wife (Pola) was also serving in the church, doing whatever was needed there. She was asked to teach the women, in their frequent women's Bible studies.

But they counted her as unbaptized, and unable to be a member. So I told them, she was already genuinely baptized as an infant (everyone knew I was Presbyterian / Reformed, and would not teach against their standards), but for the sake of your consciences I will allow her to be baptized by you.

My consience was clean, as I declared she was already baptized, and their dunking her in the water was for their sakes, not hers. Not all here may agree with what I allowed, but before the Lord I did it.

This was one of the great church experiences for both of us, being loved by all, and able to serve those we loved.
 
Here's a different situation of "re-baptism" :

My wife was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church as an infant. We count this her true baptism. Fast forward a number of decades: I was co-pastoring a 1689 Baptist church (helping the pastor, a friend, with a fairly large congregation, until we could raise up another elder), and my wife (Pola) was also serving in the church, doing whatever was needed there. She was asked to teach the women, in their frequent women's Bible studies.

But they counted her as unbaptized, and unable to be a member. So I told them, she was already genuinely baptized as an infant (everyone knew I was Presbyterian / Reformed, and would not teach against their standards), but for the sake of your consciences I will allow her to be baptized by you.

My consience was clean, as I declared she was already baptized, and their dunking her in the water was for their sakes, not hers. Not all here may agree with what I allowed, but before the Lord I did it.

This was one of the great church experiences for both of us, being loved by all, and able to serve those we loved.
1Cor. 9 vibes. But I can see how some would struggle hard with this.
 
I’m a pastor of a 1689 Confession church in the middle of nowhere. Two OPC members wanted to transfer to us. After deliberation, we admitted them as members, provided they would not advocate for paedobaptism.

My Refomed Baptist friends thought it was irregular, but I noted our confession chapter 27 spoke of “united to Christ in faith.” They certainly exemplified that.
 
would you be re-baptized, or simply attend as a non-member?
I have thought this through and came to the firm conclusion that I would not consent to their requirements.
Having said that, if I planned to stay in this church as a non-member, it would have to be a good reason to attend a church that rejected my baptism. I think the Baptists have put up a fence that keeps out dear saints who are both loved by God, and who loved and respected their Godly parents _ that they were included in the calling of their parents. I think this fence is wrong, but certainly not gross heresy.

I am unaware of how many Baptists also believe in the duty and possibility of a church filled with only elect persons.
That is a much more serious problem. Serious because also impossible. Perhaps the most important teaching on how we are to view and think and treat those desiring to come under your care.

I had the good Providence to be a member of a very good and Godly local church with a session that I learned to trust and try to emulate. The most important rule that I saw practiced repeatedly is that we cannot, and therefore should never think we can, judge the heart of another.

1 Samuel 16:7​
But the LORD said unto Samuel, "Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: For the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."
This rebuke of Samual by the Lord was NOT because Samual was failing to see a man's heart. Instead, He was stating what is the case. We cannot know another man's heart and should never try to do so. No one, not the most Godly of the Puritans, can know their own heart to its depths.

Jeremiah 17:9 says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
 
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