Resolve salvation of elect and 1 Tim 2:4/Jn 3:16?

[bond-servant]

Through my studies, I believe now in the salvation of the elect through Christs redeeming work as opposed to what I was brought up with:
"Christ died to make a way for ALL people if they should choose it"

As of now, my only unanswered questions is how to resolve that although the covenant was for the *chosen*, that
1 Timothy 2:4, says : the God desires ALL men to be saved , not just the elect. Similar, John 3:16, for God so loved the WORLD, (not simply the elect)

Please help me resolve this. If there was a precious thread directly addressing these verses, I missed it, and am sorry for the repost of topic.

thanks again for helping a "quickly reforming, used to be baptist"! LOL

 

[bond-servant]

oops "PREVIOUS" thread.. though it may have been "precious" too!

 

[Here2learn]

Newbie here.
I was told that "all " and "World" are figures of speech. And there are other scriptures where this is evident.

 

[Puritanhead]

John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A.W. Pink in his book The Sovereignty of God does an excellent word study on kosmos (world) and it's various connotations in the New Testament.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

All does not necessarily mean all and all without exception. In 2 Peter 3:9, for example, all is qualified by toward us, the appellation beloved which is reserved for the elect and the salutation to the epistle in 2 Peter which is clearly addressed to a body of believers.

However, there is a different usage of all that Calvinists need to concede, but do so in manner that harmonizes Scripture. 1 Timothy 2:4 does not mean all and all without exception as that would be actual universalism. It means that all types of people will be saved from among gentium (i.e. the nations.) There is a Psalm that says, "All flesh shall see the salvation of God." (it's itinerated in Lk. 3:6)

 

[Puritanhead]

If you don't read A.W. Pink's word study on kosmos than you're depriving yourself of theological wisdom. We must harmonize Scripture, but at the same time realize that words have different denotations/connotations.

 

[Puritanhead]

Josh did the a nice succinct exegesis 1 Timothy 2:1-4... One thing I think it is very important for us to do when examining the Word is to avoid falling prey to the trap of hyper-atomizing Scripture or being snippet exegetes and just focusing on the verse itself without reading it in context. The verse system was added about five-hundred years ago to help us out with references, and it shouldn't be now erroneously used to confound sound Biblical exegesis. You have to qualify verses by the context in which it is written, and that warrants critical examination of the paragraphs, chapter and the epistle itself sometimes. 2 Peter 3:9 loses its Arminian flavor when you read it in context for example. Likewise, we are to harmonize Scripture and interpret Scripture with Scripture.

Arminians are no less cognizant of the verses that supposedly give creedance to universal atonement than the Calvinist is aware of the elect passages. We have to address their supposed universal atonement verses by "rightly dividing the Word of truth."

 

[Here2learn]

A.W. Pink in his book The Sovereignty of God does an excellent word study on kosmos (world) and it's various connotations in the New Testament.

Puritanhead that link is great I'm eating it up! Thanks

 

[BrianBowman]

I highly recommend the DVD "Amazing Grace - The History & Theology of Calvinism". It features several leading Reformed Pastors/Theologians of our day and should answer the questions posed here (and many more) very well. Shop around on the Internet for it. You should be able to get it for $20 or so.


Brian

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

In addition to the great points made so far, here are some further precious thoughts concerning 1 Tim. 2.4:

Matthew Poole:

1 Tim 2:4. The apostle produces a clear, convincing reason, that the duty of charity in praying for all men is pleasing to God, from his love extended to all, in his willing their salvation, and their knowledge and belief of the gospel, which is the only way of salvation. From hence our Saviour's commission and command to the apostles was universal: Go and teach all nations, Matt 28:19; Preach the gospel to every creature, that is, to every man, Mark 16:15; he excludes no people, no person. And accordingly the apostles discharged their office to their utmost capacity, Col 1:24. But a question arises, how it can be said that God would have all men saved, when that the most of men perish? For the resolving this difficulty, we must observe, that in the style of Scripture the will of God sometimes signifies his eternal counsel and decree; that things should be done either by his immediate efficiency, or by the intervention of means: or, secondly, his commands and invitations to men to do such things as are pleasing to him. The will of God in the first sense always infallibly obtains its effect, Ps 115:3; thus he declares: My counsel shall stand, I will do all my pleasure, Isa 46:10; for otherwise there must be a change of God's will and counsel, or a defect of power, both which assertions are impious blasphemy. But those things which he commands and are pleasing to him, are often not performed without any reflection upon him, either as mutable or impotent. Thus he declares, that he wills things that are pleasing to him; as, I will not the death of a sinner, but that he should turn and live, Ezek 33:11; and sometimes that he will not those things that are displeasing to him, as contrary to holiness, though he did not decree the hindering of them: thus he complains in Isa 55:12: Ye did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. This distinction of the Divine will being clearly set down in Scripture, answers the objection; for when it is said in the text, that God will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; and in the same sense by St. Peter, that God will have none perish, but come to repentance, 2 Pet 3:9; we must understand it, not with respect to his decretive will, but his complacential will, that is, the repentance and life of a sinner is very pleasing to his holiness and mercy. And this love of God to men has been declared in opening the way of salvation to them by the Mediator, and by all the instructions, invitations, commands, and promises of the gospel, assuring them that whoever comes to Christ upon the terms of the gospel shall in no wise be cast off; that no repenting believer shall be excluded from saving mercy.

1 Tim 2:5. The apostle proves the universal love of God to men by two reasons, the unity of God, and the unity of the Mediator: though there are divers societies and vast numbers of men, yet there is but one God, the Creator and Preserver of all. If there were many gods in nature, it were conceivable that the God of Christians were not the God of other men, and consequently that his good will were confined to his own portion, leaving the rest to their several deities; but since there is but one true God of the world, who has revealed himself in the gospel, it necessarily follows that he is the God of all men in the relation of Creator and Preserver. And from hence he concludes: God will have all men to be saved. He argues in the same manner that salvation by faith in Christ belongs to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, Rom 3:29-30. The apostle adds, for the clearest assurance of his good will of God to save men, that there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. When the sin of man had provoked Divine justice, and the guilt could not be expiated without satisfaction, God appointed his Son incarnate to mediate between his offended Majesty and his rebellious subjects. And it is observable, the parallel between the unity of God and the unity of the Mediator; as there is one God of all nations, so there is one Mediator of all. The strength of the apostle's argument from the unity of the Mediator is this: If there were many mediators, according to the numbers of nations in the world, there might be a suspicion whether they were so worthy and so prevalent as to obtain the grace of God, every one for those in whose behalf they did mediate. But since there is but one, and that he is able to save to the uttermost all that come to God by him, it is evident that all men have the same Mediator, and that every one may be assured that God is willing he should be saved, and, for that blessed end, should by faith and repentance accept the covenant of grace. The apostle for the stronger confirmation specifies the Mediator, the man Christ Jesus, to encourage the hopes of all men, from the communion they have with him in nature, that they may partake of his salvation, and that this great Mediator, having come from heaven and assumed the infirmity of our nature, Heb 4:15, will be inclined compassionately to assist them, and raise them to his heavenly kingdom.

John Calvin:

16. The second passage adduced is that in which Paul says that "God will have all men to be saved," (1 Tim 2:4). Though the reason here differs from the former, they have somewhat in common. I answer, first, That the mode in which God thus wills is plain from the context; for Paul connects two things, a will to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. If by this they will have it to be fixed by the eternal counsel of God that they are to receive the doctrine of salvation, what is meant by Moses in these words, "What nation is there so great, who has God so nigh unto them?" (Deut 4:7). How comes it that many nations are deprived of that light of the Gospel which others enjoy? How comes it that the pure knowledge of the doctrine of godliness has never reached some, and others have scarcely tasted some obscure rudiments of it? It will now be easy to extract the purport of Paul's statement. He had commanded Timothy that prayers should be regularly offered up in the church for kings and princes; but as it seemed somewhat absurd that prayer should be offered up for a class of men who were almost hopeless (all of them being not only aliens from the body of Christ, but doing their utmost to overthrow his kingdom), he adds, that it was acceptable to God, who will have all men to be saved. By this he assuredly means nothing more than that the way of salvation was not shut against any order of men; that, on the contrary, he had manifested his mercy in such a way, that he would have none debarred from it. Other passages do not declare what God has, in his secret judgment, determined with regard to all, but declare that pardon is prepared for all sinners who only turn to seek after it. For if they persist in urging the words, "God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all," (Rom 11:32), I will, on the contrary, urge what is elsewhere written, "Our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased," (Ps 115:3). We must, therefore, expound the passage so as to reconcile it with another, I "will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy," (Exod 33:19). He who selects those whom he is to visit in mercy does not impart it to all. But since it clearly appears that he is there speaking not of individuals, but of orders of men, let us have done with a longer discussion. At the same time, we ought to observe, that Paul does not assert what God does always, everywhere, and in all circumstances, but leaves it free to him to make kings and magistrates partakers of heavenly doctrine, though in their blindness they rage against it. A stronger objection seems to be founded on the passage in Peter; the Lord is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance," (2 Pet 3:9). But the solution of the difficulty is to be found in the second branch of the sentence, for his will that they should come to repentance cannot be used in any other sense than that which is uniformly employed. Conversion is undoubtedly in the hand of God, whether he designs to convert all can be learned from himself, when he promises that he will give some a heart of flesh, and leave to others a heart of stone (Ezek 36:26). It is true, that if he were not disposed to receive those who implore his mercy, it could not have been said, "Turn ye unto me, saith the Lord of Hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the Lord of Hosts," (Zech 1:3); but I hold that no man approaches God unless previously influenced from above. And if repentance were placed at the will of man, Paul would not say, "If God per adventure will give them repentance," (2 Tim 2:25). Nay, did not God at the very time when he is verbally exhorting all to repentance, influence the elect by the secret movement of his Spirit, Jeremiah would not say, "Turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented," (Jer 31:18).

Zachrias Ursinus:

Objection 1. But the promise of grace is universal. Answer. It is universal in respect to the faithful, that is, it extends to all those that believe. And it is particular in respect to all men. Our adversaries, however, deny that it is universal, because, say they, those who are converted may fall away, which is to weaken the general promise.

To this it is objected, that God wills that all men should be saved. (1 Tim 2:4.) We reply, that there are other passages which must be taken in connection with this: such as these: "Many are called, but few are chosen." "This people's heart is waxed gross, saith the Lord, lest they should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matt 20:16; Matt 13:15.) Here it is declared that God wills that some should not be saved. Are we then to infer, that these declarations of divine truth contradict each other? God forbid! God wills that all men should be saved, in as far as he rejoices in the salvation of all: and he rejoices in the punishment of the wicked, yet not in as far as it is the torment of his creatures; but in as much as it is the execution of his justice. God wills that all should be saved, in as much as he, in a certain respect, invites, and calls all to repentance, but he does not will the salvation of all, as it respects the efficacy of this calling. He blesses all, "if haply they might feel after him, and find him:" (Acts 17:27.) He invites all, and says to all; Honesty and obedience are pleasing to me, and due to me from you; but he does not say to all, I will produce this honesty, and obedience in you; but to the elect alone, and that because, from everlasting it has so pleased him. "The election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." (Rom 11:7.)

Loraine Boettner:

Probably the most plausible defense for Arminianism is found in the universalistic passages in Scripture. Three of the most quoted are: 2 Pet 3:9, "Not wishing [or, KJV, not willing] that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"; 1 Tim 2:4, [God our Saviour] "who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth"; and 1 Tim 2:5-6, "...Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all."

In regard to these verses we must keep in mind that, as we have said earlier, God is the absolute sovereign Ruler of heaven and earth, and we are never to think of Him as wishing or striving to do what He knows He will not do. For Him to do otherwise would be for Him to act foolishly. Since Scripture tells us that some men are going to be lost, 2 Pet 3:9 cannot mean that God is earnestly wishing or striving to save all individual men. For if it were His will that every individual of mankind should be saved, then not one soul could be lost. "For who hath resisted his will?" (Rom 9:19).

These verses simply teach that God is benevolent, and that He does not delight in the sufferings of His creatures any more than a human father delights in the punishment that he sometimes must inflict upon his son. The word "will" is used in different senses in Scripture as in our everyday conversation. It is sometimes used in the sense of "desire," or "wish," and sometimes in the sense of "decree" or "purpose." A righteous judge does not will (desire) that anyone should be hanged or sentenced to prison, yet he wills (pronounces sentence) that the guilty person shall be punished. In the same sense and for sufficient reasons a man may will to have a limb removed, or an eye taken out, even though he certainly does not desire it.

Arminians insist that in 2 Pet 3:9 the words "any" and "all" refer to all mankind without exception. But it is important first of all to see to whom those words were addressed. In 2 Pet 1:1, we find that the epistle is addressed not to mankind at large, but to Christians: "... to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us." And in a preceding verse (2 Pet 3:1), Peter had addressed those to whom he was writing as "beloved." And when we look at the verse as a whole, and not merely at the last half, we find that it is not primarily a salvation verse at all, but a second coming verse! It begins by saying that "The Lord is not slacking concerning his promise" [singular]. What promise? 2 Pet 3:4 tells us: "the promise of his coming." The reference is to His second coming, when He will come for judgment, and the wicked will perish in the lake of fire. The verse has reference to a limited group. It says that the Lord is "longsuffering to usward," His elect, many of whom had not yet been regenerated, and who therefore had not yet come to repentance. Hence we may quite properly read 2 Pet 3:9 as follows: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some count slackness, but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance."

In regard to 1 Tim 2:4,6 "Who would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth ... who gave himself a ransom for all," we scarcely need point out that in Scripture the word "all" is used in various senses. Oftentimes it means, not all men without exception, but all men without distinction"”Jews and Gentiles, bond and free, men and women, rich and poor. And in 1 Tim 2:4-6 it clearly is used in that sense. Through many centuries the Jews had been, with few exceptions, the exclusive recipients of God's saving grace. They had become the most intensely nationalistic and intolerant people in the world. Instead of recognizing their position as that of God's representatives to all the people of the world, they had taken those blessings to themselves. Even the early Christians for a time were inclined to appropriate the mission of the Messiah only to themselves. The salvation of the Gentiles was a mystery that had not been known in other ages (Eph 4:6; Col 1:27). So rigid was the pharisaic exclusivism that the Gentiles were called unclean, common, sinners of the Gentiles, even dogs; and it was not lawful for a Jew to keep company with or have any deals with a Gentile (John 4:9; Acts 10:28; Acts 11:3).After an orthodox Jew had been out in the marketplace where he had come in contact with Gentiles he was regarded as unclean (Mark 7:4). After Peter had preached to the Roman Centurion Cornelius and the others who were gathered at his house, he was severely taken to task by the Church in Jerusalem, and we can almost hear the gasp of wonder when, after Peter told them what had happened, they said, "Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance to life" (Acts 11:18). Consequently this was a truth that it was particularly necessary to enforce at that time, and it was brought out in the strongest terms. Paul was to be a witness "unto all men" (Acts 22:15), that is, not to every individual in the world, but to Jews and Gentiles alike. Used in this sense the word "all" has no reference to individuals, but simply to mankind in general.

When it was said of John the Baptist that "There went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; and they were baptized of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mark 1:5), we know that not every individual did so respond. We read that after Peter and John had healed the lame man at the door of the temple, "all men glorified God for that which was done" (Acts 4:21). Jesus told his disciples that they would be "hated of all men" for His name's sake (Luke 21:17). And when Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself" (John 12:32), He certainly did not mean that every individual of mankind would be so drawn. What He did mean was that Jews and Gentiles, men of all nations and races, would be drawn to Him. And that is what we see is actually happening.

In 1 Cor 15:22 we read, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." This verse is often quoted by Arminians to prove unlimited or universal atonement. This verse is from Paul's famous resurrection chapter, and the context makes it clear that he is not talking about life in this age, whether physical or spiritual, but about the resurrection life. Christ is the first to enter the resurrection life, then, when He comes, His people also enter into their resurrection life. And what Paul says is that at that time a glorious resurrection life will become a reality, not for all mankind, but for all those who are in Christ. And this point is illustrated by the well known fact that the race fell in Adam, who acted as its federal head and representative. What Paul says in effect is this: "For as all born in Adam die, so also all born again in Christ shall be made alive." 1 Cor 15:22, therefore, refers not to something past, nor to something present, but to something future; and it has no special bearing at all on the Calvinistic-Arminian controversy.

Two other verses that also are often quoted in defense of Arminianism are "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him, and he with me" (Rev 3:20); and "... he that will [KJV, whosoever will], let him take the water of life freely" (Rev 22:17). This general invitation is extended to all men. It may be, and often is, the means that the Holy Spirit uses to arouse in certain individuals the desire for salvation as He puts forth His supernatural power to regenerate them. But these verses, taken by themselves, fail to take into consideration the truth that already has been stressed in this article, that fallen man is spiritually dead, and that as such he is as totally unable to respond to the invitation as are the fallen angels or demons. Fallen man is as dead spiritually as Lazarus was dead physically until Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth," and gave him the power to do so. On another occasion Jesus said to the Pharisee Nicodemus, "Except one be born anew [or, from above], he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). And again, He said to the Pharisees, "Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word" (John 8:43). Apart from that divine assistance no one can hear the invitation or put forth the will to come to Christ.

The declaration that Christ died for "all" is made clearer by the song that the redeemed sing before the throne of the Lamb: "Thou wast slain and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev 5:9). Oftentimes the word "all" must be understood to mean all the elect, all His Church, all those whom the Father has given to the Son, as when Christ says, "All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me" (John 6:37), but not all men universally and every man individually. The redeemed host will be made up of men from all classes and conditions of life, of princes and peasants, of rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, Jews and Gentiles, men of all nations and races. That is the true universalism of Scripture.

Arthur Dent:

Asunetus: Yea, but the scripture saith, "God will have all men saved." [1 Tim 2:4]

Theologus: That is not meant of every particular man, but of all sorts some. Some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, some high, some low, etc.

Asunetus: Christ died for all; therefore, all shall be saved.

Theologus: Christ died for all, in the sufficiency of his death, but not in efficacy unto life; for only the elect shall be saved by his death; as it is written, "This is my blood in the new testament, which is given for you," [Luke 22:20] meaning his disciples and chosen children. And, again, Christ, being consecrated, is made "the author of salvation to all that obey him." [Heb 5:9]

Asunetus: God is merciful; and, therefore, I hope he will save the greatest part, for his mercy's sake.

Theologus: The greatest part shall perish; but all that shall be saved shall be saved by his mercy; as it is written, "He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." [Rom 9:18] And, again, "It is not in him that willeth, or in him that runneth, but in God that sheweth mercy," Rom 9:16. Therefore, though God be infinite in mercy, and Christ infinite in merit, yet none shall have mercy but only the vessels of mercy.

[Edited on 10-1-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by BrianBowman
I highly recommend the DVD "Amazing Grace - The History & Theology of Calvinism". It features several leading Reformed Pastors/Theologians of our day and should answer the questions posed here (and many more) very well. Shop around on the Internet for it. You should be able to get it for $20 or so.

Brian

Dr. Roger Schultz who is in it -- sold me my copy. I highly recommend it as well.

 

[Puritanhead]

Good stuff Andrew! That tops the cake!

 

[bond-servant]

Wow! Thanks everyone - SO much. I was just on the amazinggrace website - it looks like an excellent resource too. Thank you for all the explanations and commentary!!!! Thanks also for the u2u's!! Thanks for taking the time to help me work through this. Ya'll are AWESOME



Now, if you think I am being dramatic with the 'thank you's', I am not. Let me explain:

In the last year, when I began studying Reformed Theology, Scripture has started to open up to me and make sense in a way in never did before. While many of my old beliefs were/are correct, many were not. There are a lot of old Dispensational doctrines that are going one by one. Funny, it's like getting rid of layers of scales or weights... one at a time. And I feel SO incredibly JOYFUL after the peeling away of each weight/layer.

I never realized until this year that, although I proclaimed the sovereignty of God, many of the doctrines that I clung to in essence denied it. I never realized how deep the disease of Dispensational beliefs invaded.

Though I did hours of Bible study a day, I did not realize how many areas I brought my 'preconceived' ideas into.

Anyway, along with Whitefield, the people on this board have been *instrumental* in pulling me out of the proverbial 'mud puddle'. In the spirit of the Apostle Paul, I tell you "the scales are falling from my eyes". What price can be put on correct knowledge and worship of the God of the universe??
Thank you. Ya'll are priceless.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

If you would like another Reformed view regarding "world" in John 3:16, I would read Thomas Boston and the Marrow Men. (I think Pink misses something here, though His effort is noble.) Though I agree thus far regarding what all have said about 1 Tim. 2:4, I think in John 3:16, "world" does actually mean world there, that is, the world of sinful men. But the atonement is not what is in view by Jesus. You have to put the conversation in the context of Nicodemus, and Christ's own illustrations about Himself. Jesus is not teaching in John 3 who He is dying for.

The key question here is, what was Nicodemus suppose to understand about Jesus after this conversation? Jesus is lifted up just like Moses lifting up the serpent (John 3:14-15, Numbers 21). He is presented and given to the world as the object of faith for deliverance from sin, just as the bronze serpent was for Israel. John 3:14-17 is about who Jesus is and what He promises to those who come to Him in faith. Notice that the love God has for the world is of a different quality than the love taught elsewhere for His elect (i.e. Romans 8). His love for the elect secures salvation in Christ permanently. His compassion here to the world, in John 3:16, freely offers salvation in Christ, but does not secure it like in Romans 8. His offer can be rejected, and the sinner remain in condemnation.

So, in light of the fact of Jesus' own illustration, being offered to the world as the appointed means of salvation, just like Moses lifting up the serpent to Israel, and given the fact that Nicodemus needs to learn that the Messiah of the Jews also came to save Gentiles, we see that John 3:16 teaches that the Father offers Christ to all sinners. Those who come to Him will receive all He has promised, just like those who looked upon the bronze serpent. Those who refuse will remain in their disease of sin and perish, just like those who refused to look at the bronze serpent.

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by puritansailor
Though I agree thus far regarding what all have said about 1 Tim. 2:4, I think in John 3:16, "world" does actually mean world there, that is, the world of sinful men.

I think your critique of A.W. Pink is missing something too! He never says world doesn't mean world, it just does not mean everyone in the whole wide world as the Arminian inference construes it. I will have to look into Boston's work. Otherwise, thanks for the references.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by Puritanhead

Originally posted by puritansailor
Though I agree thus far regarding what all have said about 1 Tim. 2:4, I think in John 3:16, "world" does actually mean world there, that is, the world of sinful men.

I think your critique of A.W. Pink is missing something too! He never says world doesn't mean world, it just does not mean everyone in the whole wide world as the Arminian inference construes it. I will have to look into Boston's work. Otherwise, thanks for the references.

I know exactly what Pink said, and I disagree with him. God is compassionate to the entire world, not just the elect world.

 

[bond-servant]

Originally posted by joshua

Yeah, my pastor said it was like an Onion. With each layer being pealed, revealed is a new layer to consider.

It surely is!

 

[Scott]

Beth:

Interesting timing. I am teaching an adult Sunday School on 1 Timothy this quarter. Just yesterday I taught over 1 Tim. 2:1-7. Anyway, here is the section of my script that addresses your question. I spent allot of time looking into this.

Paul starts by telling Timothy to pray for everyone, including kings. He then spends 5 verses defending this practice. Paul lists several reasons why we should pray for everyone. [ASK WHAT REASONS WE CAN SEE IN THE TEXT] These reasons include (1) God wants all men to be saved, (2) there is only one God, (3) Jesus is the one mediator between God and men, and (4) Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all men. Think about why the Bible would spend so much space defending the practice of prayer for all men. What issues would keep people from praying for all men? Why would Paul spend so much space defending this practice?

I want to suggest that Paul is addressing a problem in Ephesus that pervades the entire early church. Namely, Paul is giving Timothy reasons to pray for gentiles and not just Jews. He is telling Timothy to pray for all types of people, not just Jews. For example, verse 3 would mean the following: "œThis is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all types of people from diverse nationalities, races, and statures to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Now, not everybody interprets these passages this way. They interpret "œall men" means "œeach member of the human race." So if you replaced "œall men" in these verses with "œeach member of the human race" the meaning would be the same.

Some people use this section of 1 Timothy to argue against predestination. This is an important issue. So we are going to look in some detail at the meaning of the terms "œeveryone" and "œall men" in verses 1, 4, and 6. Before we look in detail at the text, I want to discuss two points. First, I want to show that the meaning of "œeverybody" and "œall men" depends on the context. Second, I want to look at tensions between Jewish and gentile Christians in the early church.

The meaning of words like "œall men" or "œeverybody" are determined by their contexts. I will give you one example from the Bible. In Matthew 10:22 Jesus tells his disciples: "œAll men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Now Jesus is not saying each and every member of the human race, including other Christians and people in China who had never heard of Christ, will hate disciples. From the context we know this is not the case. You can find many other examples if you just pull up "œeverybody," "œall" and similar terms in a concordance.

The second thing I want to look at is the tensions between Jewish Christians and gentile Christians that existed in the early church. These were a sort of growing pains caused by the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. Under the Old Covenant God focused his saving power on a single nation, Israel. He gave them a law that included boundary markers to set them apart from the other nations. This included things like circumcision, food restrictions, and the Saturday Sabbath. God changed this with the New Covenant. His people changed from a single nation to an international church. Like a seed that sheds its husk in order to sprout forth, so God´s people shed the husk of nationhood so that God´s people could become international.

Not everybody wanted to shed the husk, though. Many Hebrew Christians believed that the Christian Church should retain the boundary markers of the nation of Israel, or ceremonial laws. Paul addresses these issues time and again in his letters. Any time you read Paul talking about circumcision, food, the Saturday Sabbath, and the like you know he is addressing issues of a party called the Judaizers. Paul´s fights against this faction are famous. It produced one of the more memorable quotes in the Bible. In Galatians 5:12 Paul said: "œAs for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" He was speaking against the Judaizers, who taught that circumcision was necessary for salvation, even under the New Covenant.

Fights between Jewish and gentile Christians tore apart local congregations in very practical ways. I will give you an example from chapter 6 of the Book of Acts. The early church had widows who were destitute. They needed food. The church had food to distribute to needy people. Hebrew Christians controlled the food distribution and decided that only Hebrew widows should receive any. They discriminated against the Greek widows who were not given any food. Imagine if you were in need and came to the Community Storehouse in Keller and were told that you could not have any food because you were the wrong race or ethnicity. This is pretty nasty. The conflicts between Hebrew and gentile Christians are seen all over the New Testament.

Paul wrote another letter to Ephesus, which we call Ephesians. As you will recall Timothy was at Ephesus. Paul spends a good portion of the letter problems arising out of conflicts between Judaizers and Gentiles.

Ok, so as we look at the interpretations of the use of "œeverybody" and "œall men" keep these two points in mind: (1) "œall" is determined by the context, and (2) part of the context of the early church is serious conflict between Jewish and gentile Christians.

I am going to give you three reasons from the context why we should interpret all people to mean all classes of people.

First, verse 1 raises the issue of the role of gentiles in God´s plan. [READ VERSE 1] Paul asks for prayer for kings and all those in authority. At that time all the kings were gentile. Israel was under Roman occupation and was not allowed to have a king. If salvation is limited to the nation of Israel or one people, then praying for those outside might not make sense. This requires an international (beyond Israel) perspective that some in the church at that time did not have.

Second, Paul expressly identified his ministry with gentiles in verse 7. [READ VERSE 7]. Why did he mention gentiles immediately after saying that Christ dies as a ransom for all men? He does not always mention gentiles when he mentions that he is an apostle. See, e.g., 1 Tim. 1:1. Paul mentions gentiles here because it supports his statement that God wants to save "œall types of people" "“ not just those from ethnic Israel.

Third, Paul´s argument in verse 5 is the same argument he uses elsewhere for unity of Jewish and gentile Christians. He is explaining why God wants "œall men" to come to know the truth. A reason is that there is "œone God" "“ not many. Paul makes the same argument in Romans to teach that Jewish and gentile believers are on equal footing before God. Roman 3:29-30 reads: "œIs God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith." See also Rom. 10:12. Interpreting scripture with scripture, we have another reason to believe that "œall men" means "œall types of men" "“ both Jews and gentiles.

 

[Scott]

I still did not beat Andrew!

 

[Ravens]

Whenever I talk with Arminians about this verse, I do three things.

First of all, use Scriptures from Acts to demonstrate that the Jewish Christians were genuinely surprised when God poured out His Spirit on Gentiles, and like Scott said, place this Scripture partly within that framework; also, the early experience of Christians with rulers wasn't exactly a little Eden, so Paul would probably need to remind them that God's sovereign grace can extend even to them.

Secondly, like everyone else said, point out the flexibility of "all" in Scripture.

And then, just to root the whole "flexibility" concept in their mind, use 1 Tim. 6:10, which says that the love of money is a root of "pantwn twn kakwn", literally, "of all evils" or, I guess, "of all the evils". Its exactly the same use that Reformed people claim for 1 Tim. 2:4, except everyone, across the board, usually admits that this means "all kinds of evils" or "all types of evils."

Usually pointing out the usage in the same author, and even in the same book, gives your case more... emotional credibility, with a less logical Arminian... ;-)

 

[Scott]

Joshua: That is a good approach. In terms of jewish / gentile conflict it is helpful to focus on Timothy being in Ephesus. The Paul letter to the Ephesians we see the Jewish / Gentile controversy was active there (at least at that time), as it was in nearly all parts of the church. See chapters 2 and 3, for example.

 

[bond-servant]

Scott,
Thanks! Great post!
Joshua, excellent 3 points. Makes sense.

Can I have your permission to copy your comments into my e-sword study notes?

:bigsmile:

 

[Scott]

You can do what you want with my post.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

tssst tssst Scott, copyrights tssst, try to get a fee for your intellectual property

 

[Scott]

Actually, she is entitled under the Copyright Law to make "fair use" for free. If she tries to commercialize it, then that is a problem. However, I don't expect that attempt would go far.

 

[bond-servant]

LOL, no ,I just want to have them handy to refer back to. Thank you for permission. :bigsmile:

 

[canuk]

All and the world

Here are several verses that portray that world couldn't be used universally:

John 1:10 (ESV)
"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him."

Evidently every single person on the planet didn't know Jesus, including His family and His disciples.

1 John 5:19 (ESV)
"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."

Obviously, all people, even Christians, are directly in the power of Satan.

Luke 2:1 (ESV)
"In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered."

I guess Caesar counted every person on the planet.


John 7:7 (ESV)
"The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil."

Nobody on the entire earth can ever hate Christians.


John 12:19 (ESV)
"So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him.""

Evidently: every man, woman, and child on the planet followed after Jesus.

John 18:20 (ESV)
"Jesus answered him, "I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret.""
All people on the planet at that time heard the words Jesus spoke...right?


Acts 19:27 (ESV)
"And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may be counted as nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship."

It seems that all the people on the Entire earth were worshipping Artemis.

Romans 1:8 (ESV)
"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world."

Everybody on the planet, every single person, knew of the faith of the Christians in Rome.

Romans 11:15 (ESV)
"For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?"

Because the Jews rejected Christ, everybody on the planet was reconciled to Him.

1 Corinthians 4:9 (ESV)
"For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men."

The apostles were a spectacle to every man-woman-and-child on Earth, even people in the deep jungle of Africa.

It is just like the verse that uses the word "all":


Matthew 3:5
"Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,"


It does not imply that everysingle person emptied him/herself of the places mentioned but that there were large populations of people that represented all these areas.

Jeremiah 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that have the corners of their hair cut off, that dwell in the wilderness; for all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in heart.

I am certain that there were some who were curcumcised in the heart.

 

[bond-servant]

Great examples. Thank you.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by bond-servant
Great examples. Thank you.

 

[Skeuos Eleos]

Originally posted by bond-servant
Through my studies, I believe now in the salvation of the elect through Christs redeeming work as opposed to what I was brought up with:
"Christ died to make a way for ALL people if they should choose it"

As of now, my only unanswered questions is how to resolve that although the covenant was for the *chosen*, that
1 Timothy 2:4, says : the God desires ALL men to be saved , not just the elect. Similar, John 3:16, for God so loved the WORLD, (not simply the elect)

Please help me resolve this. If there was a precious thread directly addressing these verses, I missed it, and am sorry for the repost of topic.

thanks again for helping a "quickly reforming, used to be baptist"! LOL

The first thing I think should be examined here is what it is you think needs to be "resolved" in the first place? I mean, that implies you think something is contradictory, right? But I think it should be asked why can't God predestine His Elect to eternal life from before the foundation of the World and yet so love mankind as His image-bearer that He sent His only begotten Son...??? Scripture says both, what is it that needs to be resolved?

It amuses me how people go to great lengths to show that 1 Tim 2:4 means "all kinds of men" without realising that it still doesn't say what they want it to since "all kinds of men" does not equal "all kinds of elect men".

Martin

[Edited on 2-15-2006 by Skeuos Eleos]

[Edited on 2-15-2006 by Skeuos Eleos]

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Welcome Martin,
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