Roman Catholic Exorcism

[Jeri Tanner]

The precedent is set for the concept that activities in the gospels and Acts stopped; people being raised from the dead, for instance, miraculous healings, and the immediate, infallible communications of the Holy Spirit. So the question is, did the kind of demonic activity encountered in the gospels and Acts also stop?

The raising from the dead, the miraculous healings, the direct kind of communications from the Spirit- I believe those all ceased after the apostles because they were part of the verification that the Messiah had at last appeared to destroy the works of the devil. Included in that, logically, would be the kind of convulsive demonic activity described. The epistles do not instruct the church in dealing with demons, but they do instruct us in dealing with Satan (mainly, don’t give place to him by sinning).

Beyond that, I don’t know about the reports of stuff that happens when someone is supposedly demon-possessed. We know that Satan ensnares unbelievers and holds them captive to do his will (2 Timothy 2:24-26), but they are to dealt with by gentle words of correction. I don’t see the continuance of the kind of activity, and the way it was dealt with in the narratives, in the didactic epistles.

 

[Dachaser]

I drink either red wine or Yeunglings (MAGA).

Back to the OP. I did some notes on biblical demonology (this is just scratching the surface).

1. Why is Satan called the prince of the powers of the air (Eph. 2:2) if he is locked underground?
2. If all the demons are in hell, then why do we wrestle against principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph. 6)?
3. If Ha Shatan is locked underground, then how did he appear before God in Job?
4. If all the demons are in hell, then how did they possess people in the NT?
5. Yet Peter says some were thrust into Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4).
6. Why does Peter use the word Tartarus when he could have simply said hell or hades?
7. Was the spirit in 1 Kings 22:19-23 good or bad? If he was good, then was God commanding him to lie? If he was bad, then why was he in heaven?
8. Is God the only kind of Elohim? You have to say no, because God (singular Elohim) is often speaking to plural Elohim, and even if the latter are just men, they aren’t the kind of Elohim that Yahweh is.

satan is not bound in hell right now, as he is still free to roam around, as he will not be bound until at end of this Age.

 

[Dachaser]

Two quotes from Rev. Winzer from the thread Earl linked to:

“The Jewish and Graeco-Roman cultures had very distinct notions of these things. Christ and His apostles only associated them with the work of Satan and his messengers.”

“Satan at that time exercised a specific adversarial role among the visible covenant nation, especially as it related to Messiah. The demonic power was part of the darkness in which the people sat before they would see the great light of Messiah, and when the great light shone the darkness was dispelled, which created these unique interactions "in the flesh," in the "rudiments of the world." It was unique and unparallelled because it was an extraordinary meeting point in history. I do not expect to see it again. I certainly would not use modern claims to demonic possession as any indication of what was happening in the narratives.

“In hindsight, and with the full revelation of Scripture, we understand that these "demons" were in fact "devils," operating under the agency of Satan, but we must not assume the people thought in this way. It is likely that they held very confused ideas about "demons"...”

I had a hard time grasping what Reverend Winzer was saying at the time of that conversation, but I think these quotes from him show that he believed that Christ and the apostles truly dealt with “Satan and his messengers.” Rev. Winzer preferred to call those messengers “devils,” following the KJV, since there was and is such misinformation about what a “daemon” meant to the people in NT times, as well as what it means to people today.

He believed the encounters with those devils in Scripture were “unique and unparallelled because it was an extraordinary meeting point in history.”
I tend to agree, and believe that Christ’s victory on the cross was such a decisive victory blow to Satan that the activity as recorded in the gospels and Acts is over. Not to say that Satan isn’t still on the prowl and dangerous, and we must resist him in just the ways taught in the epistles.

His power over the saved has indeed been broken, but those lost rare still under his dominion and Kingdom, and as such, can be opening themselves to demonic activities by playing around with occult, in false religions, on drugs and alcohol though.

 

[Dachaser]

The precedent is set for the concept that activities narrated in the gospels and Acts stopped; people being raised from the dead, for instance, miraculous healings, and the immediate, infallible communications of the Holy Spirit. So the question is, did the kind of demonic activity encountered in the gospels and Acts also stop?

The raising from the dead, the miraculous healings, the direct kind of communications from the Spirit- I believe those all ceased after the apostles because they were part of the verification that the Messiah had at last appeared to destroy the works of the devil. Included in that, logically, would be the kind of convulsive demonic activity described. The epistles do not instruct the church in dealing with demons, but they do instruct us in dealing with Satan (mainly, don’t give place to him by sinning).

Beyond that, I don’t know about the reports of stuff that happens when someone is supposedly demon-possessed. We know that Satan ensnares unbelievers and holds them captive to do his will (2 Timothy 2:24-26), but they are to dealt with by gentle words of correction. I don’t see the continuance of the kind of activity, and the way it was dealt with in the narratives, in the didactic epistles.

satan is still active and well connected on earth, for is he not the one behind the spread of Islam, and other false religions? the one that instigates wars and basically trying to destroy those under his dominion?

 

[RamistThomist]

Satan is not bound in hell right now, as he is still free to roam around, as he will not be bound until at end of this Age.

I know. That's what I said.

 

[earl40]

[

I know. That's what I said.

Here is an interesting question I have for all. If one is supposed to resist the devil does that mean one is to literally resist him one on one? Lets be honest I seriously doubt any of us have gone head to head with satan. I bring this question to the forefront, because many will say that one must read and understand scripture literally. The point I am trying to make in that a "didactic" reading does not always mean a literal sense is intended when we read the bible.

 

[RamistThomist]

[


Here is an interesting question I have for all. If one is supposed to resist the devil does that mean one is to literally resist him one on one? Lets be honest I seriously doubt any of us have gone head to head with Satan. I bring this question to the forefront, because many will say that one must read and understand scripture literally. The point I am trying to make in that a "didactic" reading does not always mean a literal sense is intended when we read the bible.

What does "literally" mean?

 

[Dachaser]

[


Here is an interesting question I have for all. If one is supposed to resist the devil does that mean one is to literally resist him one on one? Lets be honest I seriously doubt any of us have gone head to head with Satan. I bring this question to the forefront, because many will say that one must read and understand scripture literally. The point I am trying to make in that a "didactic" reading does not always mean a literal sense is intended when we read the bible.

Are we under a literal/real spiritual warfare against Satan and His minions?

 

[earl40]

What does "literally" mean?

Do you think you literally have resisted satan one on one?

 

[Dachaser]

Do you think you literally have resisted Satan one on one?

I have been attacked by Him at times, as in he controls this world system, and so the temptations for us to be sinning against God can be set up by Him...

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I have been attacked by Him at times, as in he controls this world system, and so the temptations for us to be sinning against God can be set up by Him...

I don’t want to read too much into the fact that you capitalized a pronoun referring to Satan...

 

[Jeri Tanner]

David, I know you didn’t capitalize on purpose and I probably shouldn’t have said that, but in a way, we can give the devil credit for too much, and miss some important ways that we should be on guard because of his activity.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

[


Here is an interesting question I have for all. If one is supposed to resist the devil does that mean one is to literally resist him one on one? Lets be honest I seriously doubt any of us have gone head to head with Satan. I bring this question to the forefront, because many will say that one must read and understand scripture literally. The point I am trying to make in that a "didactic" reading does not always mean a literal sense is intended when we read the bible.

Right- to resist the devil is to believe what God has said and resist any temptation to test God or to doubt him. Not some kind of power battle. When we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God in all his providences, we are resisting the devil.

 

[Dachaser]

David, I know you didn’t capitalize on purpose and I probably shouldn’t have said that, but in a way, we can give the devil credit for too much, and miss some important ways that we should be on guard because of his activity.

Good catch by you, as I did not even notice that was done.

 

[Dachaser]

Right- to resist the devil is to believe what God has said and resist any temptation to test God or to doubt him. Not some kind of power battle. When we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God in all his providences, we are resisting the devil.

We have to be active and diligent in resisting the Satan and his ways, as we have to put on the full armor of God, and rely upon the Holy Spirit to give us the strength to resist and turn away from the temptations Satan daily provides in all our lives.

 

[Cymro]

Only God is omnipresent and the devil but a fallen created angel. He therefore is unable to personally deal with each member of the world let alone the church. Only certain individuals had encounters with him, eg, Job, and our Lord. He has principalities and powers that do his work of temptations, but don’t credit him with omnipresence.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Only God is omnipresent and the devil but a fallen created angel. He therefore is unable to personally deal with each member of the world let alone the church. Only certain individuals had encounters with him, eg, Job, and our Lord. He has principalities and powers that do his work of temptations, but don’t credit him with omnipresence.

Indeed. No credit for omniscience or omnipotence, too.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

FYI, attached is a copy of my old Roman Ritual (1964), which can also be found in various formats with some internet searching. See the section on Exorcism for a view into the Romanist's ways and means.

You can also learn in the RR how we former Romanist clergy actually made holy water.

 

[Dachaser]

Only God is omnipresent and the devil but a fallen created angel. He therefore is unable to personally deal with each member of the world let alone the church. Only certain individuals had encounters with him, eg, Job, and our Lord. He has principalities and powers that do his work of temptations, but don’t credit him with omnipresence.

I don't , but he has a multitude of demons to assist him, as well as many in this world system who are sprouting firth his notions, without even realizing that they are!

 

[RamistThomist]

Do you think you literally have resisted Satan one on one?

What does literally mean?

 

[Jeri Tanner]

A very helpful book on this topic is “Satan Cast Out” by Frederick S. Leahy; it provides a balanced view and gives Scriptural answers to a lot of questions.

 

[earl40]

What does literally mean?

My question I thought was self evident in the context of our conversation. I apologize if I was not clear. The reason I asked what I did is to bring out your thoughts on how a person is encountered by satan or "demons". Many people think people are possessed by demons or satan, in that the evil spirit somehow directly causes them to sin "literally".....(The devil made me do it). Flip Wilson used to get a good laugh out of this, and people knew (correctly I may add) he was giving a negative satire of such thinking. Now I can say yes we can be tempted by them BUT that temptation is not a direct cause from a spiritual tempter. This is how we are tempted "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." Is it not interesting How James puts all the blame of sinning on ourselves and not on some demon or satan.

 

[RamistThomist]

My question I thought was self evident in the context of our conversation. I apologize if I was not clear. The reason I asked what I did is to bring out your thoughts on how a person is encountered by Satan or "demons". Many people think people are possessed by demons or Satan, in that the evil spirit somehow directly causes them to sin "literally".....(The devil made me do it). Flip Wilson used to get a good laugh out of this, and people knew (correctly I may add) he was giving a negative satire of such thinking. Now I can say yes we can be tempted by them BUT that temptation is not a direct cause from a spiritual tempter. This is how we are tempted "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." Is it not interesting How James puts all the blame of sinning on ourselves and not on some demon or Satan.

Of course I don't hold that the unclean spirit causes them to sin.

 

[earl40]

Of course I don't hold that the unclean spirit causes them to sin.

So if you assert such, what exactly does an fallen angel (unclean spirit or demon) do while hanging around in a person, if you think they somehow posses a person?

 

[RamistThomist]

So if you assert such, what exactly does an fallen angel (unclean spirit or demon) do while hanging around in a person, if you think they somehow posses a person?

A demon isn't a fallen angel. Jude and Peter are really clear on that. Further, the term "possessed" is rather loaded in English. The literal Greek transliteration is "demonized."

Further, the problems with "demonization" as to how it is in a person are similar to the problem of how a "soul" is in a person. We have to say it is in a person in order to maintain Christian theism, but how is a mystery. For example, if I cut off my finger, and my soul is spread out in my person, did I lose 8% of my soul just then? Of course not.

As to what a demon does in a person. I don't know. The gospels and Acts give us a lot of info, and not every case is the same, so I don't want to generalize.

I did a taxonomy earlier where I distinguished between unclean spirits, the Satan, fallen angels, beney elohim, and the like. As a general rule, Satan, Azazel, and most of the darker beney elohim do not inhabit a person.

 

[Dachaser]

So if you assert such, what exactly does an fallen angel (unclean spirit or demon) do while hanging around in a person, if you think they somehow posses a person?

The demons will attempt to influence the lost to act out their desires, and can work against Christians who are in a state of unconfessed/unrepentant sin, as doing that allows the devil to try to get a work into our lives. Also being involved in Occultic things can allow him an entry way into lives. Lost persons also can allow a gateway in by being drugged/drunk, as those activities can lower their guard down.
Every person is responsible for their own sins, but the demonic can at times put heavy pressure on someone to submit to their fleshly desires.

 

[Dachaser]

A demon isn't a fallen angel. Jude and Peter are really clear on that. Further, the term "possessed" is rather loaded in English. The literal Greek transliteration is "demonized."

Further, the problems with "demonization" as to how it is in a person are similar to the problem of how a "soul" is in a person. We have to say it is in a person in order to maintain Christian theism, but how is a mystery. For example, if I cut off my finger, and my soul is spread out in my person, did I lose 8% of my soul just then? Of course not.

As to what a demon does in a person. I don't know. The gospels and Acts give us a lot of info, and not every case is the same, so I don't want to generalize.

I did a taxonomy earlier where I distinguished between unclean spirits, the Satan, fallen angels, beney elohim, and the like. As a general rule, Satan, Azazel, and most of the darker beney elohim do not inhabit a person.

Only time satan himself possessed someone was in case of Judas. but I think scriptures do indicate that when a demon comes into a lost person, it can mimic the behavior of someone who would look to be insane, crazy, deranged etc.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Only time Satan himself possessed someone was in case of Judas. but I think scriptures do indicate that when a demon comes into a lost person, it can mimic the behavior of someone who would look to be insane, crazy, deranged etc.

The thing about all these assertions is that there is an unseen world that God alone knows about. Christ and the apostles, being uniquely commissioned to go in his name, were the ONLY ONES in Scripture who actually knew that a person’s behaviors were due to demonic forces. NONE SINCE THEM possess this knowledge. We can talk as if we know all about what makes this and that happen, and what’s going on with this and that occurrence, but the fact is we do not know and cannot know. The spiritual answer for every person who is erratic, troubled, insane, evil, and so forth is the same. We don’t know how or if demons are involved. The spiritual solution is the truth of the gospel, shared with them; and prayer and exhortation and the means of grace in the church- not exorcism. The physical solution might be medicine. Please read Leahy’s book! It’s so helpful.

 

[RamistThomist]

were the ONLY ONES in Scripture who actually knew that a person’s behaviors were due to demonic forces

That, too, is an assertion. I, on the other hand, have given a logical taxonomy based on the data in Scripture.

 

[Deleted member 6112]

My own take, following the Gospel data and the arguments in Jude and 2 Peter:

1. Demons are similar to cthonic forces and they are unclean spirits.
2. What we call fallen angels (which is a bad term) are those angels who wanted to mate with human women in Genesis 6, Jude, and 2 Peter 2. God is keeping them in eternal chains in gloomy darkness until that great day.
3. Therefore, demons =/= fallen angels.
4. Further, the Archangel Michael was hesitant to rebuke Satan, yet the disciples rebuke demons. So they can't be of the same class.

Jacob,
I'm curious--can you point us to any sources that take the same perspective as you on demons?