RTS Orlando opinions

[psycheives]

Hi Andrew! Rev. Gordon is very kind and does a great job preaching - very blessed to have him move here. But I couldn't fit into the 500+ person church. Ended up at Oceanside with Pastor Danny Hyde. It's nice to have a number of URC churches in the area to choose from.

Good suggestion. Pastoral experience. But not just pastoral experience, but pastors that know how to live the life and teach and practice practical theology is very important. A pastor who knows how to preach the 3rd use of the law is essential. I think without such guidance, it can be easy to fall into accumulating knowledge and getting puffed-up. Young guys can easily fall into bragging rights - comparing grades and ranking each other on "intellectual" abilities. Sadly, I think some of these will make the poorest pastors.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Pastor Sheffield,

No disrespect intended, but on what basis can you make the above statements? Have you attended RTS Orlando? Please keep in mind that Aaron is asking about "quality of education and faculty".

Unless there is graduate study you haven't indicated, the bio listed at your church's website states that you earned your Bachelor of Biblical Studies from Moody, hardly a bastion of reformed confessionalism. Yet, I think it is safe to assume by your signature that you are "self-consciously confessional". How did that happen?

This seems uncharitable to me, bordering on the genetic fallacy of logic, given your infelicitous "hardly a bastion of reformed confessionalism."

As an extreme example--especially when compared to Moody--I attended a Roman Catholic Seminary for seven years before coming out of Romanism and am confident I am well within my rights to weigh in on the teachings I have observed coming out of other seminaries even if I have not attended them based upon careful analysis of the writings of those representative of said institutions. After all, I need not have to burn myself to know from the evidence of others that fire will do so.

Your post seems to latch on to one's alma mater and assume that no refinement of one's views is possible in a walk of faith. One need only look to one of PB's esteemed graduates of Fuller to see how such an assumption is littered with pot holes. If you will pardon the metaphorical ditch I am stuck within, thanks be to God that men who have sat under teachers in various seminaries were able by the grace of God to separate the wheat from the chaff versus swallowing the whole camel.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Pastor Sheffield,

I think my issue is not so much whether you're wrong or right, but it's that you do seem to complicate the issue when you do not answer the question or provide meaningful help. If you read his post, Aaron is not asking for recommendations of confessional schools, and although what you say might have slight merit, you cannot possibly authoritatively make your assertions unless you have first hand knowledge. As I said in my earlier post, aspiring seminarians have to make the best decision for themselves and their families, and your post seems to miss that entirely. Not only do your statements not address Aaron's issues, but you felt the need also to offer information based on admittedly second hand sources at best and tertiary sources at worst. Now, if within your realm of association you so happen to have current and former students, current and former staff and professors and the like, I apologize and will loudly profess that I am as wrong as two left shoes. However, In order for you to offer any assessment of RTS-O that carries substantial weight in the discussion, you would at least have to have the experience of someone such as, oh I don't know, Joel possibly? After all, he did actually attend. As far as the confessional thing, I mean, you didn't even qualify that with something like, "you know I've read" or "I've heard". You just boldly stated it. You might disagree, but in my humble opinion (which may not be worth much), that, sir, is uncharitable.

The OP asked for opinions of RTS Orlando. That's what I offered. You seem to be adding limitations to the OP that are not present. You are the one in fact complicating things.

You have wrongly assumed that I have no first-hand knowledge of or experience with RTS Orlando because I did not graduate from there. But I did not elaborate on that knowledge because, as I stated earlier, it really is irrelevant to my comments which can bear the weight of scrutiny without my detailing my dealings with the school, its professors, or its graduates. But I'll spare you the trouble of having you loudly profess that you are as wrong as two left shoes.

As to the charge of being uncharitable; it is not uncharitable to say that a school is not self-consciously confessional if that is the case. That is only an observation. If it were uncharitable to make such an observation, anyone choosing not to attend a seminary for that reason would be guilty of sin. That is of course absurd.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Candidate: "I take exception to the WLC on the forbidding of making mental images of the Son of God because I don't think it's possible to think of Jesus without having a mental image of a man in your mind."

Perhaps you should ask the candidate how many minds of other people he has actually been in? How does he know that it is impossible for someone, indeed anyone in the entire universe, to think of Christ without constructing a mental image in their head?

 

[SolamVeritatem]

Pastor Sheffield,

I want to express my sincerest apologies to you. I am very sorry to have responded to you in the way that I did, and I hope you will forgive me. I think I jumped to an inappropriate conclusion and made some assumptions about your particular experiences that were unfounded. In addition, I can see where my tone contained a level of harshness and edginess that lacked compassion for not only a fellow brother in the Lord, but also a minister of the word. I ask for your pardon and continued prayers.

Patrick,

I also want to apologize to you, since you did address me directly. I'm quite certain i overstepped my bounds with Pastor Sheffield, and you were right to correct me. I receive your rebuke with gladness, and will be sure to guard from committing the fallacy you mentioned, as well as others, in the future.

I've removed all of the posts I authored in this thread except this one. I believe sister Psyche's advice, and others, was much more helpful anyway.

Pastor Sheffield, grace, peace, the love of the Father and his Son Jesus Christ be with you, your family and those you serve in ministry.

With all sincerity,

Craig

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Craig,

I appreciate your apology. It is very easy to get worked up when discussing things on a board. It has happened to me on more than one occasion. The medium of the written word is rather one dimensional and removes us from the people with whom we are talking so that we communicate differently than if we were speaking face to face. It takes grace and humility to step back from things, admit when one is wrong and to apologize. Thank you and may God bless us all with the same grace and humility in our conversations with one another.

 

[Deleted member 6112]

Aaron,

If you haven't noticed, Frame is a rather central figure at RTS Orlando. Some of the major problems with his theology are:
1. Shepherdism--He approves of Norman Shepherd's denial of justification by faith alone.
2. He is warm toward the Federal Vision. See #1.
3. The issues regarding mental images of Christ, as noted by Rich above.
4. His denial of, and war against, the regulative principle of worship.
5. His defense of charismatic worship.

It must be pointed out that Frame is looked upon by broadly evangelical Presbyterians and such as one of the greatest theologians of our time. He has written prolifically, and his Theology of Lordship series (his magnum opus, I would think) takes up more than 3000 pages. So, he is no academic lightweight. He is an extremely influential theologian. In my opinion, this should cause more (not less) caution. He is winsome, and siding with him is the popular thing to do right now. So, if you study under him, just know that you will have to be on your toes and ready to critique the potentially dangerous views of one of the greatest minds in broad-evangelical/broadly-reformed thought.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Craig,

Thank you for your excellent example of humility and openness to correction.