RTS Orlando

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Ken, you wrote:
"But, what you have said is like saying 'Well, I like the Nicene Creed, I guess. I find myself closer to it than other creeds. But I really don't see why it's necessary.'"

But I haven't said anything like this.

I actually consider the Reformed confessions the purest expressions of the Christian faith around. Hopefully you don't still think that I've "denigrated" them.

Berny,

Sorry if the response was heated.

Just take it from those of us who have been through seminaries (and I am not a hidebound type, I don't think). The problem with seminaries is that they are academic in the bad sense --that is, too many profs think the seminary exists for the sake of the academy.

They forget that the seminary serves the church, and primarily the pulpit.

Thus, confessional fidelity is a sine qua non, is it not? Again, the confessions aren't Scripture --the WCF could probably be improved upon at certain points (more for clarity and consistency than anything else). The point is, it's not up to individuals to alter confessions. It is not up to seminary profs, no matter how learned they are. It is up to presbyters meeting, and struggling, and debating, and, most of all, praying.

The reason we have so much discord in the PCA currently is, at least in part, because we have everyone just doing what is right in his own eyes, and no-one reverencing the communion of the saints as the primary key for finding out the mind of Christ in the Scriptures.

We need the church!

Here endeth the sermon :worms:

Andrew, if you even hint at going to another presbytery to get ordained, I will hunt you down like a dog. :lol:

I don't want to go to another presbytery.
 
Andrew, if you even hint at going to another presbytery to get ordained, I will hunt you down like a dog. :lol:

I will bring Andrew up here to Jim Furey and he will be merciful I am sure. We hunt hound dogs up here. We don't need them. We train our sons and use them. :lol:
 
I would request that you not ask me any questions...PLEASE!!!

Keep digging your grave, son!

Here's my vote :down:

And, to the person who is not concerned about the confessionalism of profs: Trust me, you will regret it later, if you aren't aware and concerned about it now.

Amen. I unfortunately will pay the rest of my life for not attending a confessionally-reformed seminary.
 
Apropos #3, I'm wondering what an M.Div from RTS Orlando can do to prepare me in this regard. I understand that no seminary will be able to create talent where there are no intimations of talent to begin with, but compared to other seminaries, how effective would an M.Div from RTS Orlando be in preparing me for a career of theological writing?

Berny,

A career in theological writing? How much money do you think you can make writing theology books? Ask any of us who have written a book or two and we'll bring you back down to reality.
 
I believe we have too many writers and books rehashing the same ideas over and over. And although different perspectives are good, I think there has already been enough to have a good enough variety of perspectives.

When I hear from some aquaintances of mine that say, "I'd like to write on something theological but I just don't know on what yet," I get nervous.

Books are getting smaller and smaller by the volume and easier to read. Youtube and Godtube are editing there editted clips of clips that have been editted to size already. Things are being made too easy, and easy is not the problem but the best truths can be found in Owen, Baxter and Ryle etc... why do we need to rehash it further than what has been done already by Pink, Piper, and Packer.

I believe a main reason why a person would want to write on a subject that has not grown in new ideas for hundreds of years would be financial gain, fame, or the sincere naiveté that they didn't know that there was already an excellent book on the subject.

This post is in no way meant to disrespect, but has been a real concern to me for a long time and saw an opportunity on the subject to unleash the rant. lol.
 
I believe we have too many writers and books rehashing the same ideas over and over. And although different perspectives are good, I think there has already been enough to have a good enough variety of perspectives.

When I hear from some aquaintances of mine that say, "I'd like to write on something theological but I just don't know on what yet," I get nervous.

Books are getting smaller and smaller by the volume and easier to read. Youtube and Godtube are editing there editted clips of clips that have been editted to size already. Things are being made too easy, and easy is not the problem but the best truths can be found in Owen, Baxter and Ryle etc... why do we need to rehash it further than what has been done already by Pink, Piper, and Packer.

I believe a main reason why a person would want to write on a subject that has not grown in new ideas for hundreds of years would be financial gain, fame, or the sincere naiveté that they didn't know that there was already an excellent book on the subject.

This post is in no way meant to disrespect, but has been a real concern to me for a long time and saw an opportunity on the subject to unleash the rant. lol.

These are some very good points! You should put them in a book! :lol:
 
Apropos #3, I'm wondering what an M.Div from RTS Orlando can do to prepare me in this regard. I understand that no seminary will be able to create talent where there are no intimations of talent to begin with, but compared to other seminaries, how effective would an M.Div from RTS Orlando be in preparing me for a career of theological writing?

Berny,

A career in theological writing? How much money do you think you can make writing theology books? Ask any of us who have written a book or two and we'll bring you back down to reality.

I would hope to have a steadier job than that of a writer, but I love studying theology and writing on it. I would love to get into scholarly work.

It's just like a philosophy degree. It's highly unlikely that a philosophy major or even a philosophy master will make a lot of money (or any) as a writer, but there are other things that can supplement that, such as a teaching post.

I'd love to hear your thoughts though. Please share.
 
Berny,

I don't speak as anyone with experience, but I would pursue a call as a pastor and then move into writing as something else you could do. As the other guys have said, there ain't no money in that thar book writin'.
 
Berny -

If confessionalism is not that big a deal to you... and it seems that you would actually PREFER a more "broad" perspective... Have you considered TEDS or Gordon-Conwell? Both are good - if not GREAT - in terms of academics.

In fact, I think that given your stated goals, either of these - particularly TEDS - would be a near perfect fit for you.

Take care,
Ben
 
Ben,

Thank you for your suggestions. They are valuable.

I'm actually currently enrolled at Trinity at their extension campus in south Florida. I'm finishing up my BA there and should have it done by December. I realize that their Divinity school in Deerfield is doubtless different from my experience with their undergrad university here in Florida, but I get a taste of what Trinity offers even now. And yeah, both TEDS and GCTS were on my shortlist a while back.

But it came down to two things that made me elevate RTS Orlando to the top slot. 1) They are Reformed and I am definitely interested in learning from Reformed professors, and 2) Orlando is a manageable distance from where both my wife's family and my family live (Miami). If we have a baby anytime soon, it'll be near-impossible to continue with seminary if I'm at South Hamilton, MA, for example.

What I meant to communicate by stating that adherence to confessionalism not being my primary concern is not that I prefer a broad perspective to a Reformed perspective. No, I definitely prefer a Reformed perspective. But take Dr. Frame for example, I fit in with someone like him quite well and he's not exactly the confessional poster boy. I reject the RPW, for example. I'm also not a strict cessationist, but more of a modified cessationist (or restricted continuationist, if you like). You get my drift.
 
Berny,

I don't speak as anyone with experience, but I would pursue a call as a pastor and then move into writing as something else you could do. As the other guys have said, there ain't no money in that thar book writin'.

Yes, I suspect this might be the path to take indeed.

Thanks Zenas.
 
I love studying theology and writing on it.

You are certainly to be commended for a love of studying theology. Just remember that the best scholars are those who can explain deep theological truths to the high-school dropout.
 
Berny,

I don't speak as anyone with experience, but I would pursue a call as a pastor and then move into writing as something else you could do. As the other guys have said, there ain't no money in that thar book writin'.

This would be foolish if one is not called. I suggest talking to one's pastor/session about this decision.
 
I would hope to have a steadier job than that of a writer, but I love studying theology and writing on it. I would love to get into scholarly work.

It's just like a philosophy degree. It's highly unlikely that a philosophy major or even a philosophy master will make a lot of money (or any) as a writer, but there are other things that can supplement that, such as a teaching post.

I'd love to hear your thoughts though. Please share.

My thoughts FWTW.
Unless you know, repeat, know that God is calling you into a ministry of teaching, RUN repeat RUN as fast and as far away from it as you can. James 3:1 is in the Bible for a reason. The only reason I recently engaged in some theological writing was that I knew that a particular job needed to be done and nobody else was doing it.
 
Berny,

Most confessional guys are not going to hit you real hard for being a CJ Mahaney type on either worship or the gifts.

The big hot button issues for our progressives, I think, concern the issues of inerrancy, gender roles, the doctrines of grace themselves, and the nature of the gospel.

That's why I think you want a confessionally square guy, not for TR reasons, if you will.
 
Ben,

Thank you for your suggestions. They are valuable.

I'm actually currently enrolled at Trinity at their extension campus in south Florida. I'm finishing up my BA there and should have it done by December. I realize that their Divinity school in Deerfield is doubtless different from my experience with their undergrad university here in Florida, but I get a taste of what Trinity offers even now. And yeah, both TEDS and GCTS were on my shortlist a while back.

But it came down to two things that made me elevate RTS Orlando to the top slot. 1) They are Reformed and I am definitely interested in learning from Reformed professors, and 2) Orlando is a manageable distance from where both my wife's family and my family live (Miami). If we have a baby anytime soon, it'll be near-impossible to continue with seminary if I'm at South Hamilton, MA, for example.
What I meant to communicate by stating that adherence to confessionalism not being my primary concern is not that I prefer a broad perspective to a Reformed perspective. No, I definitely prefer a Reformed perspective. But take Dr. Frame for example, I fit in with someone like him quite well and he's not exactly the confessional poster boy. I reject the RPW, for example. I'm also not a strict cessationist, but more of a modified cessationist (or restricted continuationist, if you like). You get my drift.


why?
 
Ben,

Thank you for your suggestions. They are valuable.

I'm actually currently enrolled at Trinity at their extension campus in south Florida. I'm finishing up my BA there and should have it done by December. I realize that their Divinity school in Deerfield is doubtless different from my experience with their undergrad university here in Florida, but I get a taste of what Trinity offers even now. And yeah, both TEDS and GCTS were on my shortlist a while back.

But it came down to two things that made me elevate RTS Orlando to the top slot. 1) They are Reformed and I am definitely interested in learning from Reformed professors, and 2) Orlando is a manageable distance from where both my wife's family and my family live (Miami). If we have a baby anytime soon, it'll be near-impossible to continue with seminary if I'm at South Hamilton, MA, for example.
What I meant to communicate by stating that adherence to confessionalism not being my primary concern is not that I prefer a broad perspective to a Reformed perspective. No, I definitely prefer a Reformed perspective. But take Dr. Frame for example, I fit in with someone like him quite well and he's not exactly the confessional poster boy. I reject the RPW, for example. I'm also not a strict cessationist, but more of a modified cessationist (or restricted continuationist, if you like). You get my drift.


why?

Because my wife and I agree that once we have kids she won't work a job any longer. And if this happens while at seminary in Orlando, we can simply move back down to Miami and I can make the drive to and from Orlando for a couple of days each week. This is how my pastor did it. And in this situation my wife could potentially work one or two days at the family business while either of our parents take care of the baby. That way we gain some additional income and the baby gets a chance to spend some quality time with his/her grandparents.
 
BTW Dena, I clicked through to your church and found you and Andrew on their staff page. I'm from Overland Park too!
 
I would request that you not ask me any questions...PLEASE!!!

Keep digging your grave, son!

Here's my vote :down:


HEY! :mad:





:lol::lol:

Oh, no. It's really bad when a candidate's wife has to take up for him!!! :worms:

I can see it on the floor of presbytery now:

Questioner: Mr. Barnes, are you the head of your household?

BArnes: Yes, why.

Questioner: well, your wife was on the Puritan board, and she said....

:lol:

Seriously kidding.
 
Keep digging your grave, son!

Here's my vote :down:


HEY! :mad:





:lol::lol:

Oh, no. It's really bad when a candidate's wife has to take up for him!!! :worms:

I can see it on the floor of presbytery now:

Questioner: Mr. Barnes, are you the head of your household?

BArnes: Yes, why.

Questioner: well, your wife was on the Puritan board, and she said....

:lol:

Seriously kidding.

She cares about me, that's all. She doesn't run the house or anything. She just loves me.

If you allow me in, I will work to get you defrocked my good sir, for these words you have said here on the PB. I can see it now...

UMMMM....jk. I heard you preached a real humdinger last night!:gpl:
 
No offense intended to those have been dissing RTS-O, but I wonder how many of those completely opposed to it have actually attended classes here.

Yes, RTS-O is not as confessionally reformed as some others. However, professors here do not fudge on Calvinism as some have suggested. Some would take exceptions to the Confession, yes, but they do not denigrate the past as some have suggested. It's a good place. Not a perfect one for sure, but a good place. It is more diverse than other Reformed seminaries, but there is some strength to that as well. Just my two cents as one who is actually here.
 

Oh, no. It's really bad when a candidate's wife has to take up for him!!! :worms:

I can see it on the floor of presbytery now:

Questioner: Mr. Barnes, are you the head of your household?

BArnes: Yes, why.

Questioner: well, your wife was on the Puritan board, and she said....

:lol:

Seriously kidding.

She cares about me, that's all. She doesn't run the house or anything. She just loves me.

If you allow me in, I will work to get you defrocked my good sir, for these words you have said here on the PB. I can see it now...

UMMMM....jk. I heard you preached a real humdinger last night!:gpl:

Yes, we have REAL preaching over here at Trinity. :eek:

I probably need to be defrocked because, unlike some in MVP, I actually believe that you can be non-cessationist, credo-baptist, and less than 7-24 and 0 nanoseconds, and still enter the kingdom!!!! :lol:
 
No offense intended to those have been dissing RTS-O, but I wonder how many of those completely opposed to it have actually attended classes here.

Yes, RTS-O is not as confessionally reformed as some others. However, professors here do not fudge on Calvinism as some have suggested. Some would take exceptions to the Confession, yes, but they do not denigrate the past as some have suggested. It's a good place. Not a perfect one for sure, but a good place. It is more diverse than other Reformed seminaries, but there is some strength to that as well. Just my two cents as one who is actually here.

JOel,

Glad you like your seminary.

But, the issue is the public statements of professors and their wives.

Carolyn James: Many are very concerned about Ms. CUSTIS James and her trajectory.

John Frame: Read Machen's Warrior Children, and you'll see why many are concerned about him. He is not himself, FV or NPP, but he is, in classic psychological terms, an enabler to those that are.

Reggie Kidd: Kidd started a firestorm when he started trumpeting female ordination on his blog, in public.

Add to that a professor who was hired WHILE he was under ecclesiastical discipline in California, and I think you can see why many of us might be concerned.

If questions are asked about any seminary, I would be honest in my assessment of them. They are all mixed bags, some more than others, and people need to know what they are getting before they go.
Those positions are incompatible with anything resembling the Reformed faith, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out to prospective seminarians.
 
JOel,

Glad you like your seminary.

But, the issue is the public statements of professors and their wives.

Carolyn James: Many are very concerned about Ms. CUSTIS James and her trajectory.

John Frame: Read Machen's Warrior Children, and you'll see why many are concerned about him. He is not himself, FV or NPP, but he is, in classic psychological terms, an enabler to those that are.

Reggie Kidd: Kidd started a firestorm when he started trumpeting female ordination on his blog, in public.

Add to that a professor who was hired WHILE he was under ecclesiastical discipline in California, and I think you can see why many of us might be concerned.

If questions are asked about any seminary, I would be honest in my assessment of them. They are all mixed bags, some more than others, and people need to know what they are getting before they go.
Those positions are incompatible with anything resembling the Reformed faith, and there is nothing wrong with pointing that out to prospective seminarians.

Regarding Mrs. James, I must confess ignorance. I'm not sure why you're upset with her. Dr. James himself is an amazing prof.

Frame: I realize that many in the "confessionally Reformed" crowd are really ticked off at him for "Machen's Warrior Children" and his views on the RPW, etc. I guess I just have a lot of sympathy with what he's saying. As someone who grew up in an intensely "warrior" confessionally Reformed church, I have to be more than a little broken by the incessant warring in the Reformed camp. (Note: I am not saying that issues of FV/NPP are not important, etc, just that it seems to me that in the Reformed camp, perhaps we have warred too much and in the wrong areas, so that when it comes to really important things, some of us are written off as people looking for a fight, and others of us are just fed up with it all).

Kidd: Could you point to which blog post you are referring to? I know he did start a firestorm with his post on "Mutual Defenestration" last semester, and there was a little blurb about frustration with those who are so quick to condemn women who are pursuing truth, but I don't know that he was pushing women's ordination. Perhaps he has said something to that effect somewhere else, but I am not aware of it.

Regarding the other prof, as far as I understood it was a difficult, complex situation. He's an amazing prof, and I confess I don't know too much about the other situation.

I fully realize that RTS-O has some issues. And I am fine with people pointing out their problems with it. But at the same time, there is some strength and help in its diversity. I would be way more frustrated at a place like Greenville personally, though I do think it is a good school and thought about it at one point.
 
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