Seeking Comment: Short paper explaining pre-suppositional apologetic

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Privileged2Preach

Puritan Board Freshman
I teach an apologetics class at the church where I serve as asst Pastor. While I use both classical and pre-suppositional methods, I see undeniable value in a pre-suppositional approach - even to be ABLE to make classical apologetic arguments.

I do see what I view as a problem in the commonly stated presuppositional explanations .... that they are largely "unreachable" for the average beleiver.

As such I've written this short paper and seek review and comment to improve my work.

KEEP IN MIND: this is aimed NOT at impressing the Van Til's and Bahnsens of the world, but to be understandable by average redeemed peoples of high school graduate level, and above.


_______________________________________


Pre-Suppositionalism​
Presuppositional Definition
Presuppositional apologetics is a method for defending the Christian faith that begins with the assumption that the Bible is true. The believer stands firmly on God’s written word and interprets all of life through that Word. This means that the pre- suppositionalist approaches the apologetics conversation itself, in which he is seeking to defend the truth of Christianity, through Scripture. [1] In other words, if an assertion cannot be supported from Scripture, then in an ultimate sense it cannot be defended as anything more than an unsupported personal belief, a pre-supposition. Everyone has presuppositions, and many cannot be proven. Scripture – being from God - uniquely lies outside the arena of personal opinion, though in certain cases it also cannot be proven.
More fundamentally, a “pre-supposition” is something we assume to be true before we begin the process of reasoning through any issue. They lie (typically) outside the realm of full proof. The basic pre-supposition everyone everywhere holds to is that their minds work sufficiently well to properly gather the facts and understand their meaning. Their reasoning began with the pre-supposition that they are not clinically insane. They pre-suppose that their logical assessment of the issue has real hope of a successful end – finding the truth about that question or issue. Excluding those who reject all Christian dogma, there are two major methods / approaches for logical assessment of the facts for the purpose of finding the truth about any given issue, and communicating those findings: classical vs. presuppositional apologetics.


Classical Apologetics
Classical apologetics uses philosophical arguments to show that Christianity is reasonable. Classicalists begin by proving that a kind of bare theism (viz. belief in a god, of some sort) is the more sensible reading of the facts, and from there attempt to show that Christian truth claims are reasonable to believe.
Speaking personally, I find classical apologetic arguments to be very enjoyable to consider and articulate. I love philosophy (so much so, that I have a degree in it), and I like to see it used to establish Christian truth claims. However, classical apologetics does not really establish the specific truths of Christianity. The furthest it can go is to show that Christianity is intellectually valid and reasonable to believe. Note that this is not how we see Jesus and the apostles reasoning in Scripture. They defended the truth as absolutely certain, and beyond dispute. Classical apologetics begins with the notion that a person can, without bias, use reason to come to true conclusions on his own. Christ, however, doesn’t permit such intellectual independence. When it comes to biblical truth, there are two options… and only two:

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters” (Mt 12:30).
“For the one who is not against us is for us” (Mk 9:40)
“I am the way, truth, and life. No one comes to the Father (i.e. accurately grasps the truth from the Father) but through Me.” (John 14:6)


We could summarize that in this way: Christ sovereignly possesses and declares all truth. We are in the position of affirming or denying what He declares as true, and in so doing, affirming whether we are either for or against Him. In this way, truth is not an open-sourced commodity that we autonomously seek in our own wisdom or ability. The Triune God is truth’s gatekeeper. Adding in how sin has negatively impacted human reason, a self-skepticism seems justified, and classical apologetics’ base premises are shown to be less than certain.
Furthermore, classical apologetics is actually premised on certain assumptions that take for granted the presuppositions of the Christian worldview. For example, consider the law of non-contradiction, which states, “contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time. “ Let us use an example: your car cannot be both inside and outside your garage at the same moment in time. Aristotle viewed the presupposition of the law of non-contradiction as fundamental to all logical thought, discussion and search for truth. We would agree. Psalm 19:1 clearly states the material creation (the heavens) indicate and exhibit God’s glory.
Further, Romans 1: 20 tell us God’s invisible attributes are understood, ever since creation, through the things made. We would assert that immaterial realities like the mathematical constant “Pi” and the laws of logic, and particularly the law of non-contradictions show many of God’s intangible attributes: eternality, unchangeableness, sovereignty, universal presence, and infinity, Here’s the challenge: where does the law of non-contradiction (and all the laws of logic) originate, and what makes them to demonstrate certain of God’s attributes? When classical apologetics employs these laws of logic, it relies on the presuppositions of the Christian worldview – a sovereign Creator God declared the law of non-contradiction and laws of logic, caused them to demonstrates Himself, and keeps them reliably true, and by means of minds made in His mage, enable us to use our minds to arrive at reasonable, true conclusions.
In contrast, an agnostic / atheistic worldview calls into question (or outright denies) the ability to know truth when they question (or deny) the existence of the God who created / declared the laws of logic to be used in seeking truth. Human Logic – and its conclusions - are at best suspect in a world where God’s existence is uncertain, where nothing holds the laws of logic reliably true for the purpose of drawing reasonable conclusions. A universal agnosticism is the strongest position available to those who doubt / deny biblical theism.


The Pre-Suppositional Method: Proving our Ability to Know Truth, with Certainty
In contrast to classical apologetics, pre- suppositionalism evaluates truth claims through evaluating the presuppositions on which they are built… i.e. accurate grasp of truth is aided by our choice of valid presuppositions. Invalid presuppositions often lead to error. Let’s re-visit our definition of presuppositions - something we assume to be true before we begin the process of reasoning through any issue. That includes more than assumptions about the functional viability of our minds to reach true conclusions. While that presupposition is fundamental to all reasoning, other presuppositions exist that affect our reasoning process. Examples of such fundamental presuppositions include:

· The existence and authority of God as Creator
· The reliability of Scripture, and its essential role in human reason
· The effects of sin on human reason and the recovery of reason through divine aid

What we conclude about those (and various other) presuppositions greatly affect both the reasoning process, and the potential outcomes / conclusion to which we arrive. For example, if we presuppose no Creator God exists (a negative which cannot be proven) , we are unlikely to seek His declared truth on His purposes for this world, and human’s existence in it. If we deny the essential role of Scripture in human reasoning, and Scripture’s claim regarding the negative effects of sin on human reason, we are likely to presuppose that man is an independent free agent, able to seek truth and draw conclusions apart from the authority of his Creator. Even a cursory review of how often – and egregiously – human reason has failed humanity shows the implications of that presupposition… man’s logical free-agency is basically equivalent to lacking a spaceship in getting us from earth to the moon.
Presuppositionalism in effect addresses the question of our ability to know anything at all, with certainty.
In a world where it is likely no human knows more than 1% of all truth in the universe, and the whole of humanity knows no more than 10% of all truth ( the necessity of using such estimates underscores the fact of mankind’s ignorance with regard to a comprehensive grasp of the entire body of true truth) we are confronted by an unsettling question - How can we know with certainty that something is true? How can we claim we know anything at all, with confidence?
Presuppositionalism actually provides that answer. If we presuppose the existence of a good God who has never learned anything because He already knew all truth from the beginning, and we presuppose He reveals those truths to us, then we can possess certainty in our knowledge of that which we regard to be true, based on His revelation. If our presuppositions include the non-existence of an all- knowing God who truly reveals truth, then we are left to mankind’s relative ignorance, and great skepticism as to our ability to know anything at all is warranted. Such a presupposition makes a though-going agnosticism regarding our grasp of the truth about anything to be the most logical conclusion.
In a dialogue in which the Christian is using presuppositional apologetics, he will seek to expose the internal contradiction in the unbeliever’s position (E.g., God doesn’t exist to declare that murdering that unbeliever is always wrong. Yet he always believes that murdering him is always wrong) and then bring the unbeliever to the truth of the Christian worldview and the Gospel.” [2]
That would require a non-random world, where what is true now has always been true, and is true every place in the whole universe, under the control of a sovereign God, who has decreed the spiritual truth He reveals (e.g. murder is wrong) to be true, as He / His nature is causing that to be true, and He has existed everywhere for all time and seen all happenings, and so could reveal to us there are no exceptions to that spiritual truth which He reveals. Simply, the existence of knowable truth, and our certainty about it, requires the existence of the God of the Bible. Such a God and such a world cannot be proven to exist. He – and it - can only be presupposed to exist, and believed on by faith through divine revelation. “Without faith, it is impossible to please God.” (Heb 11:6) .

A List of Opposing Options
Returning to how Christ viewed man’s reasoning as an affirmation or denial of His person, we can develop a list of choices between alternating claims (which those who deny His person may regard as false dichotomies):



Either …​
Or…​
A God exists who declares a thing to always be true….…randomness controls , and both truth itself and our grasp of it are tenuous, at best.
Through God’s existence, who made us in His image, we have a mind that functions properly….… there is no basis for relying on our minds, and we are subject to the circularity of our minds convincing our minds that we are able to grasp truth.
Morality is fixed, based in God’s nature (e.g. murder is always ways wrong, everywhere, for all time) Morality is changeable, due to cosmological randomness, and / or personal opinion
God uses the observable scientific truths He declared to be true in order to prove His existence, or…. All that we observe in a random world is changeable and lacks any ability to reveal truth to us



[1] https://thethink.institute/articles...etics-why-and-how-to-teach-it-beginners-guide

[2] Ibid.
 
A List of Opposing Options
Returning to how Christ viewed man’s reasoning as an affirmation or denial of His person, we can develop a list of choices between alternating claims (which those who deny His person may regard as false dichotomies):



[]Either …[/][]Or…[/]
A God exists who declares a thing to always be true….…randomness controls , and both truth itself and our grasp of it are tenuous, at best.
Through God’s existence, who made us in His image, we have a mind that functions properly….… there is no basis for relying on our minds, and we are subject to the circularity of our minds convincing our minds that we are able to grasp truth.
Morality is fixed, based in God’s nature (e.g. murder is always ways wrong, everywhere, for all time) Morality is changeable, due to cosmological randomness, and / or personal opinion
God uses the observable scientific truths He declared to be true in order to prove His existence, or…. All that we observe in a random world is changeable and lacks any ability to reveal truth to us

Your chart is good, but the unbeliever will immediately counter, "But what kind of God?" That's the same as when presups tell a classical guy, "Yeah, but you didn't prove the Trinity."

The argument still works, but it requires an insane amount of leg work. All approaches do. There is no silver bullet.
 
Your chart is good, but the unbeliever will immediately counter, "But what kind of God?" That's the same as when presups tell a classical guy, "Yeah, but you didn't prove the Trinity."

The argument still works, but it requires an insane amount of leg work. All approaches do. There is no silver bullet.


Well said. For the reasons you give, I don't seek to convince the skeptic.... more to persuade the classical apologist of the sense and value of pre-suppositionalism.
 
Well said. For the reasons you give, I don't seek to convince the skeptic.... more to persuade the classical apologist of the sense and value of pre-suppositionalism.
Many classical guys (such as myself) wouldn't disagree with your chart. RC Sproul says God is first in the order of being.
 
BTW.... the "Either..." part of the chart are ALL pre-suppositions as they CANNOT be proven, but must be assumed to be true (by faith) PRIOR to the use of human reason. The "Or..." part of the chart is where ppl may well end up if they start with human reason, apart from those pre-suppoitions. And if you reject those pre-suppositions outright, there's little hope of reaching truth.

That's why in the paper I hint at my opinion that most solid classical apologetics guys are actually unwitting presuppositionalists, as they assume / use those unprovable pre-suppositons, without attribution. :) <grins>
 
I like Sproul alot, though I don't fully agree with his predominantly classical approach.

Can you develop that "first in the order of being" idea? Thanx.
God exists before man. God is the necessary cause. Etc. It's similar to the presup mantra, "Without God you can't prove anything." We simply say that simply asserting that does nothing in the actual discussion.

Sproul goes into in his book on classical apologetics.
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BTW.... the "Either..." part of the chart are ALL pre-suppositions as they CANNOT be proven, but must be assumed to be true (by faith) PRIOR to the use of human reason. The "Or..." part of the chart is where ppl may well end up if they start with human reason, apart from those pre-suppoitions. And if you reject those pre-suppositions outright, there's little hope of reaching truth.

That's why in the paper I hint at my opinion that most solid classical apologetics guys are actually unwitting presuppositionalists, as they assume / use those unprovable pre-suppositons, without attribution. :) <grins>
Right. Someone would then say, "But can you prove why the chart must have these assertions and not others?"
 
I teach an apologetics class at the church where I serve as asst Pastor. While I use both classical and pre-suppositional methods, I see undeniable value in a pre-suppositional approach - even to be ABLE to make classical apologetic arguments.

I do see what I view as a problem in the commonly stated presuppositional explanations .... that they are largely "unreachable" for the average beleiver.

As such I've written this short paper and seek review and comment to improve my work.

KEEP IN MIND: this is aimed NOT at impressing the Van Til's and Bahnsens of the world, but to be understandable by average redeemed peoples of high school graduate level, and above.


_______________________________________


Pre-Suppositionalism​
Presuppositional Definition
Presuppositional apologetics is a method for defending the Christian faith that begins with the assumption that the Bible is true. The believer stands firmly on God’s written word and interprets all of life through that Word. This means that the pre- suppositionalist approaches the apologetics conversation itself, in which he is seeking to defend the truth of Christianity, through Scripture. [1] In other words, if an assertion cannot be supported from Scripture, then in an ultimate sense it cannot be defended as anything more than an unsupported personal belief, a pre-supposition. Everyone has presuppositions, and many cannot be proven. Scripture – being from God - uniquely lies outside the arena of personal opinion, though in certain cases it also cannot be proven.
More fundamentally, a “pre-supposition” is something we assume to be true before we begin the process of reasoning through any issue. They lie (typically) outside the realm of full proof. The basic pre-supposition everyone everywhere holds to is that their minds work sufficiently well to properly gather the facts and understand their meaning. Their reasoning began with the pre-supposition that they are not clinically insane. They pre-suppose that their logical assessment of the issue has real hope of a successful end – finding the truth about that question or issue. Excluding those who reject all Christian dogma, there are two major methods / approaches for logical assessment of the facts for the purpose of finding the truth about any given issue, and communicating those findings: classical vs. presuppositional apologetics.


Classical Apologetics
Classical apologetics uses philosophical arguments to show that Christianity is reasonable. Classicalists begin by proving that a kind of bare theism (viz. belief in a god, of some sort) is the more sensible reading of the facts, and from there attempt to show that Christian truth claims are reasonable to believe.
Speaking personally, I find classical apologetic arguments to be very enjoyable to consider and articulate. I love philosophy (so much so, that I have a degree in it), and I like to see it used to establish Christian truth claims. However, classical apologetics does not really establish the specific truths of Christianity. The furthest it can go is to show that Christianity is intellectually valid and reasonable to believe. Note that this is not how we see Jesus and the apostles reasoning in Scripture. They defended the truth as absolutely certain, and beyond dispute. Classical apologetics begins with the notion that a person can, without bias, use reason to come to true conclusions on his own. Christ, however, doesn’t permit such intellectual independence. When it comes to biblical truth, there are two options… and only two:

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters” (Mt 12:30).
“For the one who is not against us is for us” (Mk 9:40)
“I am the way, truth, and life. No one comes to the Father (i.e. accurately grasps the truth from the Father) but through Me.” (John 14:6)


We could summarize that in this way: Christ sovereignly possesses and declares all truth. We are in the position of affirming or denying what He declares as true, and in so doing, affirming whether we are either for or against Him. In this way, truth is not an open-sourced commodity that we autonomously seek in our own wisdom or ability. The Triune God is truth’s gatekeeper. Adding in how sin has negatively impacted human reason, a self-skepticism seems justified, and classical apologetics’ base premises are shown to be less than certain.
Furthermore, classical apologetics is actually premised on certain assumptions that take for granted the presuppositions of the Christian worldview. For example, consider the law of non-contradiction, which states, “contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time. “ Let us use an example: your car cannot be both inside and outside your garage at the same moment in time. Aristotle viewed the presupposition of the law of non-contradiction as fundamental to all logical thought, discussion and search for truth. We would agree. Psalm 19:1 clearly states the material creation (the heavens) indicate and exhibit God’s glory.
Further, Romans 1: 20 tell us God’s invisible attributes are understood, ever since creation, through the things made. We would assert that immaterial realities like the mathematical constant “Pi” and the laws of logic, and particularly the law of non-contradictions show many of God’s intangible attributes: eternality, unchangeableness, sovereignty, universal presence, and infinity, Here’s the challenge: where does the law of non-contradiction (and all the laws of logic) originate, and what makes them to demonstrate certain of God’s attributes? When classical apologetics employs these laws of logic, it relies on the presuppositions of the Christian worldview – a sovereign Creator God declared the law of non-contradiction and laws of logic, caused them to demonstrates Himself, and keeps them reliably true, and by means of minds made in His mage, enable us to use our minds to arrive at reasonable, true conclusions.
In contrast, an agnostic / atheistic worldview calls into question (or outright denies) the ability to know truth when they question (or deny) the existence of the God who created / declared the laws of logic to be used in seeking truth. Human Logic – and its conclusions - are at best suspect in a world where God’s existence is uncertain, where nothing holds the laws of logic reliably true for the purpose of drawing reasonable conclusions. A universal agnosticism is the strongest position available to those who doubt / deny biblical theism.


The Pre-Suppositional Method: Proving our Ability to Know Truth, with Certainty
In contrast to classical apologetics, pre- suppositionalism evaluates truth claims through evaluating the presuppositions on which they are built… i.e. accurate grasp of truth is aided by our choice of valid presuppositions. Invalid presuppositions often lead to error. Let’s re-visit our definition of presuppositions - something we assume to be true before we begin the process of reasoning through any issue. That includes more than assumptions about the functional viability of our minds to reach true conclusions. While that presupposition is fundamental to all reasoning, other presuppositions exist that affect our reasoning process. Examples of such fundamental presuppositions include:

· The existence and authority of God as Creator
· The reliability of Scripture, and its essential role in human reason
· The effects of sin on human reason and the recovery of reason through divine aid

What we conclude about those (and various other) presuppositions greatly affect both the reasoning process, and the potential outcomes / conclusion to which we arrive. For example, if we presuppose no Creator God exists (a negative which cannot be proven) , we are unlikely to seek His declared truth on His purposes for this world, and human’s existence in it. If we deny the essential role of Scripture in human reasoning, and Scripture’s claim regarding the negative effects of sin on human reason, we are likely to presuppose that man is an independent free agent, able to seek truth and draw conclusions apart from the authority of his Creator. Even a cursory review of how often – and egregiously – human reason has failed humanity shows the implications of that presupposition… man’s logical free-agency is basically equivalent to lacking a spaceship in getting us from earth to the moon.
Presuppositionalism in effect addresses the question of our ability to know anything at all, with certainty.
In a world where it is likely no human knows more than 1% of all truth in the universe, and the whole of humanity knows no more than 10% of all truth ( the necessity of using such estimates underscores the fact of mankind’s ignorance with regard to a comprehensive grasp of the entire body of true truth) we are confronted by an unsettling question - How can we know with certainty that something is true? How can we claim we know anything at all, with confidence?
Presuppositionalism actually provides that answer. If we presuppose the existence of a good God who has never learned anything because He already knew all truth from the beginning, and we presuppose He reveals those truths to us, then we can possess certainty in our knowledge of that which we regard to be true, based on His revelation. If our presuppositions include the non-existence of an all- knowing God who truly reveals truth, then we are left to mankind’s relative ignorance, and great skepticism as to our ability to know anything at all is warranted. Such a presupposition makes a though-going agnosticism regarding our grasp of the truth about anything to be the most logical conclusion.
In a dialogue in which the Christian is using presuppositional apologetics, he will seek to expose the internal contradiction in the unbeliever’s position (E.g., God doesn’t exist to declare that murdering that unbeliever is always wrong. Yet he always believes that murdering him is always wrong) and then bring the unbeliever to the truth of the Christian worldview and the Gospel.” [2]
That would require a non-random world, where what is true now has always been true, and is true every place in the whole universe, under the control of a sovereign God, who has decreed the spiritual truth He reveals (e.g. murder is wrong) to be true, as He / His nature is causing that to be true, and He has existed everywhere for all time and seen all happenings, and so could reveal to us there are no exceptions to that spiritual truth which He reveals. Simply, the existence of knowable truth, and our certainty about it, requires the existence of the God of the Bible. Such a God and such a world cannot be proven to exist. He – and it - can only be presupposed to exist, and believed on by faith through divine revelation. “Without faith, it is impossible to please God.” (Heb 11:6) .

A List of Opposing Options
Returning to how Christ viewed man’s reasoning as an affirmation or denial of His person, we can develop a list of choices between alternating claims (which those who deny His person may regard as false dichotomies):



Either …​
Or…​
A God exists who declares a thing to always be true….…randomness controls , and both truth itself and our grasp of it are tenuous, at best.
Through God’s existence, who made us in His image, we have a mind that functions properly….… there is no basis for relying on our minds, and we are subject to the circularity of our minds convincing our minds that we are able to grasp truth.
Morality is fixed, based in God’s nature (e.g. murder is always ways wrong, everywhere, for all time) Morality is changeable, due to cosmological randomness, and / or personal opinion
God uses the observable scientific truths He declared to be true in order to prove His existence, or…. All that we observe in a random world is changeable and lacks any ability to reveal truth to us



[1] https://thethink.institute/articles...etics-why-and-how-to-teach-it-beginners-guide

[2] Ibid.
I'll keep in mind that you explicitly said "this is not for advanced people, it's more basic". All and all nice job on the website. I poked around on there before responding and it's pretty good.
Your overall approach seems to be pretty eclectic, which I like.
But you definitely point to the methodological difference between at least the CA and PA. Or to put it in more philosophical terms deductive, inductive, and transcendental methods of argumentation.
I find value in all of them personally. I find the transcendental method to be unique in that it refuses the unintended temptation to make some element of reality autonomous in nature.
That's that whether or not Christian Theism is true or false that thing (logic, material world, objective morality, etc) whatever it is would still be there. That's the kind of neutrality Van Til was against. Because whatever it is has some kind of self-existent property that makes it equal to God.
Dooyeweerd had his own way of putting it (strange I must say) but never the less the same. Different people have articulated it in different ways but essentially that's the rub.
Our method (whichever one someone chooses) cannot grant that neutrality by granting the autonomous nature of whatever that thing is. That's the biggest failure in any approach that I see. Classical arguments can and are made in a way that doesn't fall into that trap but sometimes in the defense of it, I see, they unintentionally fall into it.
Me personally my approach is the method of Van Til and the style of William Edgar (who adapted the style of Francis Schaeffer to the method of Van Til), so basically Edgar. I've also found value in Reformed Epistemology methods for certain types of questions.
Christopher Watkins is, in my opinion, the premier thinker on current and past Continental (European) philosophy and James Anderson a premier thinker in Analytic (or Anglo-Saxon philosophy). Both well above the average person. I don't find the old Sye very good but maybe he's changed and I need to look at his newer stuff to see.
Again props on the website and ministry, you may or may not be aware of "Choosing Hat's" website which is older but a great resource for PA. I'll post a link.
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Here's the website, I think. Enjoy.
 
God exists before man. God is the necessary cause. Etc. It's similar to the presup mantra, "Without God you can't prove anything." We simply say that simply asserting that does nothing in the actual discussion.

Sproul goes into in his book on classical apologetics.
Yeah unfortunately every position is haunted by these sorts of people. That's why I don't like the older Sye, hopefully he's changed. That's about as useless a statement as possible.
I've personally made those mistakes being a Sproul Classical guy. I've seen others make similar mistakes along with Evidential approaches.
Since all of us are finite and sinful creatures then we shouldn't be surprised to see this.
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Right. Someone would then say, "But can you prove why the chart must have these assertions and not others?"
Right, I see your point but this and your previous question seems to be a rather odd situation to be in. I've never been in a situation like that that doesn't end in them just taking the irrational way out, in which case the conversation is over. The more militant unbelievers always want to keep going though.
You're right they can say whatever they want but as you well know, not every statement is rational or legitimate.
A number of years ago I had an individual who basically took the irrational way out and said "I don't care that I have no rational basis for morality, I believe it anyway". I said "fair enough, so are you worried about this hurricane that's coming? I had to clean my yard up to avoid any debris getting thrown around."
I live in Florida so that's a legitimate conversation to have. After we discussed it a little bit, and he was chopping at the bit because he thought he presented a point that I couldn't answer, he asked what my response was to his last point on morality.
I said "nothing, if you're ok going through life believing that than how is it any of my business?" He then tried to trot out all the evils of Christianity and how that's why he can't believe. He asked me to answer, so I said "there's nothing to answer, you don't even believe in morality. What am I supposed to answer?"
He agreed that it didn't make sense but then wanted to know how I as a Christian defend that and I began to defend all of the complaints he brought up. But every once in awhile he would in frustration resort to some appeal to an objective morality to state his case (hate is objectively wrong and Christians hate homosexuals, so we're objectively wrong) but I would remind him that he gave that up at the beginning of the conversation.
Now you and I, Jacob, know that with a bit more philosophical training he was basically bringing up the idea that my position was internally contradictory and his view of morality is irrelevant to that. But in the moment I wasn't debating that hypothetical person but the person in front of me and his arguments.
If he wants to make appeals to objective morality then he needs to defend it. If he refuses then we can talk about the weather.
 
Right. Someone would then say, "But can you prove why the chart must have these assertions and not others?"
Definitely not an exhaustive list of either / or assertions and I would certainly willingly entertain any and opposing viewpoint might offer
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And I definitely use both classical and presuppositional

In my view both have value but also both have potential area for misstatement.

The presuppositional can tend to try to "win the argument" and attempt to prove what can only be accepted by faith per Hebrews 11:6. And the classical can tend to allow human logic too much autonomy without requiring them to submit to God's Authority.
 
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Definitely not an exhaustive list of either / or assertions and I would certainly willingly entertain any and opposing viewpoint might offer


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And I definitely use both classical and presuppositional

In my view both have value but also both have potential area for misstatement.

The presuppositional can tend to try to "win the argument" and attempt to prove what can only be accepted by faith per Hebrews 11:6. And the classical can tend to allow human logic too much autonomy without requiring them to submit to God's Authority.
The impossibility of the contrary is I think rooted in the fact that creation is creation. No other conceivable position can in theory be correct. If we treat creation as creation then even the unbelievers use of science and reason is using created things to deny the creator.
That's our point of contact with them. And we build our argument around that.
So we don't need an exhaustive list of all possible positions, I could be wrong but in philosophy that's not even a legitimate criticism.
A person arguing for, say, a particular view of the mind in contradistinction to another is only concerned with two competing views. They don't have to go through every possible theory to prove their particular case. Even your graph is really only applicable to materialism.
But that's the scope of your argument, why would you be concerned about others? If the unbelievers want to put forth a rational objection but their response is one that even unbelievers in philosophy don't recognize as legitimate than who's really being rational?
 
The impossibility of the contrary is I think rooted in the fact that creation is creation. No other conceivable position can in theory be correct. If we treat creation as creation then even the unbelievers use of science and reason is using created things to deny the creator.
That's our point of contact with them. And we build our argument around that.
So we don't need an exhaustive list of all possible positions, I could be wrong but in philosophy that's not even a legitimate criticism.
A person arguing for, say, a particular view of the mind in contradistinction to another is only concerned with two competing views. They don't have to go through every possible theory to prove their particular case. Even your graph is really only applicable to materialism.
But that's the scope of your argument, why would you be concerned about others? If the unbelievers want to put forth a rational objection but their response is one that even unbelievers in philosophy don't recognize as legitimate than who's really being rational?


The impossibility of the contrary is perhaps the strongest of the presuppositional arguments.

I don't see my argument as limited to materialism and I thought I definitely included the immaterial philosophical arguments relevant to the discussion
 
Right, I see your point but this and your previous question seems to be a rather odd situation to be in. I've never been in a situation like that that doesn't end in them just taking the irrational way out, in which case the conversation is over.
I think I am trying to get at this: the unbeliever can say "What about your assertion God _____ accounts for intelligibility, rationality, etc.?" Many times the presup simply asserts this without explaining what it is about God that makes x, y, and z functional.
 
I think I am trying to get at this: the unbeliever can say "What about your assertion God _____ accounts for intelligibility, rationality, etc.?" Many times the presup simply asserts this without explaining what it is about God that makes x, y, and z functional.
Fair enough but not all do. Bosserman and Anderson give pretty extended arguments on this. But there is a lack of this in popular site's, so I'll give you that.
I also suspect that the point is to get the type of argument across before diving into it. Unfortunately it usually stops there. But once you have understood what their basic position is then at least you have something in general to compare it with.
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The impossibility of the contrary is perhaps the strongest of the presuppositional arguments.

I don't see my argument as limited to materialism and I thought I definitely included the immaterial philosophical arguments relevant to the discussion
My apologies if I misread it but my point is still that you don't have to go into every hypothetical position to prove your case.
 
We would assert that immaterial realities like the mathematical constant “Pi” and the laws of logic, and particularly the law of non-contradictions show many of God’s intangible attributes: eternality, unchangeableness, sovereignty, universal presence, and infinity,.

I think you are unintentionally asserting that God and logic share a common metaphysical space. This means there are eternal, uncreated, necessary realities other than God, and God is known by looking up to these realities. He is not the "ground" of their truth but a being who conforms to them. This is a type of Platonism with God added on top.

If logic, mathematics, and universals are eternal and necessary, then God is no longer the source of all being but a participant in a larger metaphysical order. That means God is in a world of eternal truths and can be measured by those truths. This makes Him simply the most intelligent inhabitant of the universe of necessary truths.

What is needed is the archetypal-ectypal distinction. This will mean logic, mathematics, universals, and necessary truths are not co-eternal with God nor divine attributes, but ectypal reflections of the divine intellect. Such a distinction secures the transcendence of God. It will also lock us in to having to make a transcendental argument by which He is the necessary pre-condition for the intelligibility we all assume.
 
While I use both classical and pre-suppositional methods
This would be my first criticism in that it is impossible to use both classical and presuppositional methods. These are apologetical *methods*, and are not to be conflated with arguments or evidences. Van Til expressly said he did not reject the theistic proofs but the neutral framing of them. The difference between the methods consists not in their use of evidence nor their willingness to do so but their construal of the nature of evidence itself and our relationship to it. This renders the methods absolutely mutually exclusive.
it cannot be defended as anything more than an unsupported personal belief, a pre-supposition.
I do not agree with this definition of presupposition, it is not a quality of presuppositions that they are “unsupported” but that they are a priori i.e. they logically precede empirical evidences and the evaluation thereof. In layman’s terms it is something which is taken for granted, but it must be clarified and emphasized that we are talking about the logical implications of these presuppositions (and the ability to infer a proposition's presuppositions).
Everyone has presuppositions, and many cannot be proven. Scripture – being from God - uniquely lies outside the arena of personal opinion, though in certain cases it also cannot be proven.
Would you clarify if by proven you mean proven empirically? Under the Christian worldview the mere testimony of scripture is an absolute proof of the truth of that of which it testifies.
More fundamentally, a “pre-supposition” is something we assume to be true before we begin the process of reasoning through any issue. They lie (typically) outside the realm of full proof. The basic pre-supposition everyone everywhere holds to is that their minds work sufficiently well to properly gather the facts and understand their meaning. Their reasoning began with the pre-supposition that they are not clinically insane.
This is all well and good as far as it goes, but I would suggest you eventually get around to clarifying that the true basic and ultimate presupposition of everything for everyone is the existence of the Christian God (and this is basically the allegation of the transcendental argument).
Presuppositionalism in effect addresses the question of our ability to know anything at all, with certainty. In a world where it is likely no human knows more than 1% of all truth in the universe, and the whole of humanity knows no more than 10% of all truth ( the necessity of using such estimates underscores the fact of mankind’s ignorance with regard to a comprehensive grasp of the entire body of true truth) we are confronted by an unsettling question - How can we know with certainty that something is true? How can we claim we know anything at all, with confidence?
Honestly, I think this would be more confusing than edifying to the average believer.
Either …​
Or…​
A God exists who declares a thing to always be true….…randomness controls , and both truth itself and our grasp of it are tenuous, at best.
Through God’s existence, who made us in His image, we have a mind that functions properly….… there is no basis for relying on our minds, and we are subject to the circularity of our minds convincing our minds that we are able to grasp truth.
Morality is fixed, based in God’s nature (e.g. murder is always ways wrong, everywhere, for all time) Morality is changeable, due to cosmological randomness, and / or personal opinion
God uses the observable scientific truths He declared to be true in order to prove His existence, or…. All that we observe in a random world is changeable and lacks any ability to reveal truth to us
And this is something I have held off till now, which is that in most cases throughout you speak of “a God” (whatever that is). As I will clarify in answer to our brother’s objections below, it is not a God, a Creator God etc but the Triune God of Christian theism and only Him. It is specifically the God of Abraham, and no other god, which is necessarily presupposed and inescapably known. This we argue, and not anything like a “general theism”.
Your chart is good, but the unbeliever will immediately counter, "But what kind of God?" That's the same as when presups tell a classical guy, "Yeah, but you didn't prove the Trinity."

The argument still works, but it requires an insane amount of leg work. All approaches do. There is no silver bullet.
If the unbeliever asks what God or what kind of God it means he has completely disregarded the argument. The argument does not allege that a god (again, whatever that is) exists, it alleges that the Christian worldview is the necessary, ultimate truth, and the only context in which knowledge is possible in principle. It is an argument for the whole enchilada, existence of God, miracles of Christ, inspiration of scripture etc etc. In other words, it is an argument in which we tell the unbeliever why he ought to think as we think. So if an unbeliever asks which God, it is as though said “you have proven I must be Christian in order to understand anything, but what if I am not a Christian and I still understand something?”
God exists before man. God is the necessary cause. Etc. It's similar to the presup mantra, "Without God you can't prove anything." We simply say that simply asserting that does nothing in the actual discussion.

Sproul goes into in his book on classical apologetics.
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Right. Someone would then say, "But can you prove why the chart must have these assertions and not others?"
Nobody is asserting anything, they are presupposing necessarily and inescapably, both the one affirming and the one denying. The contention of the transcendental argument is essentially that belief in God is properly basic and incorrigible.
 
If the unbeliever asks what God or what kind of God it means he has completely disregarded the argument. The argument does not allege that a god (again, whatever that is) exists, it alleges that the Christian worldview is the necessary, ultimate truth, and the only context in which knowledge is possible in principle. It is an argument for the whole enchilada, existence of God, miracles of Christ, inspiration of scripture etc etc. In other words, it is an argument in which we tell the unbeliever why he ought to think as we think. So if an unbeliever asks which God, it is as though said “you have proven I must be Christian in order to understand anything, but what if I am not a Christian and I still understand something?”
Okay, why the Christian God?
Nobody is asserting anything, they are presupposing necessarily and inescapably, both the one affirming and the one denying. The contention of the transcendental argument is essentially that belief in God is properly basic and incorrigible.

Properly basic beliefs and transcendental argumentation are not the same thing. A TA inquires to the conditions which make knowledge possible. Basic beliefs do not. True, both are similar in that no further justification is required, a TA is not a basic belief.
 
Why doesn't the Quaternity worldview make knowledge possible?
1. There is no such thing 2. The transcendental argument does not require the apologist to meticulously refute every false religion under the sun in the span of an hour. In principle, every one of them is false and self-defeating, and there is an answer for every one of them, but a man only has one worldview, and in a debate between a Christian and an unbeliever no worldview is relevant save the Christian and that particular unbeliever’s worldview. It is no more valid for an atheist to argue the existence of Islam against Christianity than for the Christian to raise it against atheism; ergo, such an argument is a simple red herring fallacy. 3. The transcendental argument is not an invitation to a neutral evaluation of every worldview to determine which one has it right, the whole point is that such a neutral evaluation is entirely impossible and one must begin at the outset with the Christian worldview.
Or we can say it another way: why should I accept your assertion?
Again, there’s no assertion, there’s a necessary presupposition, held by both the one affirming and the one denying. This is demonstrated to be true in the worldview comparison, we place our presuppositions on the table and question, what are the effects? By engaging in this conversation you are presupposing your own existence and my own existence (and God’s existence), and asking me to “prove” that is absurd rather than poignant.
 
1. There is no such thing
For the sake of argument, there is now.
every one of them is false and self-defeating,
Even the ones you don't yet know about?

Of course, I'm playing the devil's advocate, and while you say these are presuppositions, not assertions, many of your claims look exactly like assertions. No unbeliever worth his salt will accept them. If you tell him without God he can't account for rationality, he'll shrug his shoulders and say he's doing just fine.

Of course, one could then do a minute analysis of his worldview and show it doesn't account for rationality. I would agree with the presup there. But simply announcing it as such does nothing.
 
For the sake of argument, there is now.
No, actually there isn’t. In reality and not in pretend there is no such thing, and therefore in reality it does not make knowledge possible. I’m not interested in debating pretend land.
Even the ones you don't yet know about?
Yes.
No unbeliever worth his salt will accept them.
The error being that we have the duty or the power to persuade the unbeliever.
If you tell him without God he can't account for rationality, he'll shrug his shoulders and say he's doing just fine.
Right, except shrugging your shoulders and saying “nuh uh” is not an argument. I say I don’t have to exist in order to post this, and if you point out how that is logically impossible I will shrug my shoulders and say I’m doing just fine. Do you accept this?
Of course, one could then do a minute analysis of his worldview and show it doesn't account for rationality. I would agree with the presup there. But simply announcing it as such does nothing.
Who ever said we should simply announce it?
 
Why doesn't the Quaternity worldview make knowledge possible?

The Trinity has exactly three irreducible relations of origin. These three relations are necessary, eternal, non-interchangeable, mutually defining, and exhaustive. There is no fourth possible relation of origin. A fourth person would have to be unbegotten (a duplicate Father), begotten (a duplicate Son), proceeding (a duplicate Spirit), or something else which is a metaphysical impossibility.

With the Trinity we have the self, the other, and a shared reference. The Trinity uniquely provides the Father knowing Himself, the Son as the perfect image, and the Spirit as the personal bond of love and knowledge.

The structure of consciousness requires a subject -- I, first person; an object -- Thou, second person; and a relation -- He, third person. This is the irreducible triadic structure of knowledge, language, logic, personal relation, and predication. If you add a fourth person you introduce unnecessary plurality and arbitrary distinctions. You destroy unity of consciousness, and with that you take away the unity of the archetypal intellect.
 
The Trinity has exactly three irreducible relations of origin. These three relations are necessary, eternal, non-interchangeable, mutually defining, and exhaustive. There is no fourth possible relation of origin. A fourth person would have to be unbegotten (a duplicate Father), begotten (a duplicate Son), proceeding (a duplicate Spirit), or something else which is a metaphysical impossibility.

With the Trinity we have the self, the other, and a shared reference. The Trinity uniquely provides the Father knowing Himself, the Son as the perfect image, and the Spirit as the personal bond of love and knowledge.

The structure of consciousness requires a subject -- I, first person; an object -- Thou, second person; and a relation -- He, third person. This is the irreducible triadic structure of knowledge, language, logic, personal relation, and predication. If you add a fourth person you introduce unnecessary plurality and arbitrary distinctions. You destroy unity of consciousness, and with that you take away the unity of the archetypal intellect.
I agree with this. But your explanation--which is quite good--explains some of our frustration. It is one thing to explain how the Trinity is superior to the Quaternity. It is another to simply announce it, with the implication that every other view is wrong by definition. I think every other view is wrong, but analytically that is not so easy to see.
 
1. Asserting w/o ability to prove God's existence and rationality is Hebrews 11:6 faith. The best argument for that may be the "impossibility of the contrary." A thing need not be provable to be rational. I can't prove the negative that the Goddess Diana is not God, but it is still rational to believe that she is not God, as she has done nothing at all to reveal herself in the knowable universe whereas the trinitarian God has.

2. Unbelievers typically take the easy way out and just accept an atheist / agnostic irrationality rather than continue to engage this discussion, or ever consider embracing a Hebrews 11:6 faith

3. Much of the discussion I see here is far beyond the average high school graduates level to engage. * I * like and appreciate it but your average person on the street won't. They'll just take route # 2, above. But Im glad for y'all to continue here. I will take what you say and try to distill it to Everyman's ability to understand
 
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I agree with this. But your explanation--which is quite good--explains some of our frustration. It is one thing to explain how the Trinity is superior to the Quaternity. It is another to simply announce it, with the implication that every other view is wrong by definition. I think every other view is wrong, but analytically that is not so easy to see.

To the OP, this is a great basic book on Vantillian apologetics aimed at high schoolers, it will serve as a launching pad for my response to Jacob.
Jacob you are of course right, about mere assertions but you've reviewed Bosserman's book so you're aware of someone's work dealing with this issue.
But who in their right mind would walk up to someone and say "I can solve the ancient problem of unity and diversity in the Trinity" in an apologetical situation? I have to say this seems like a straw man position that you take and the unintended consequences of it are, people who don't know better (you do) think that's what all presupps do.
Would the shoe be any different on the other foot? The cosmological argument for instance. Are you going to dive into the stating of it in Aristotle/Aquinas and then move on to the Human and Kantian critiques of it, only to round it all out with your favorite reconstruction of it in contemporary terms that get around those critiques?
The teleological argument the same way but now you have to dive into how evolutionary theory has affected this on a logical level? No, the average person will lose attention very quickly. So you taylor your approach to the person you're dealing with. The more intelligent they're then the deeper your argument. You know that.
But you seem at times not to allow this for Vantillian apologists. As if we walk up to baker's, fast food workers, and crossing guards (all of which are noble profession's) and challenge them with the Trinity as the solution to the unity/diversity problem and the transcendental basis for rationality. But who actually does that?
Even if you marshall videos after videos from the web to show that people are doing it, all that proves is the truism of idiots on the internet. The reason we state our method of argumentation, CT is the only rational preconditions for anything to be as it is, is because like you without context we don't know exactly how the argument would go.
You put a lot of stock in your hypothetical person that just denies rationality and boom that's it for the Vantillian (that's the impression that you give off). But how does another position do better in that situation (that I've never really encountered consistently)?
So to the OP, Pratt's book might help you with highschool kids (it's aimed at their level). Most people of all positions know how to taylor their presentation to the level of the person involved. If they don't, then don't listen to them (all sides have that problem on the internet).
I would suggest that for the Transcendental Argument from Reason, one way to improve the delivery of it would be incorporating Lewis's argument from Reason. It's timely and it can be reworked very easily for a Vantillian method.
 
But who in their right mind would walk up to someone and say "I can solve the ancient problem of unity and diversity in the Trinity" in an apologetical situation? I have to say this seems like a straw man position that you take and the unintended consequences of it are, people who don't know better (you do) think that's what all presupps do.
I actually used that exact line in the 2000s, take it or leave it. LOL.
 
1. Asserting w/o ability to prove God's existence and rationality is Hebrews 11:6 faith. The best argument for that may be the "impossibility of the contrary." A thing need not be provable to be rational. I can't prove the negative that the Goddess Diana is not God, but it is still rational to believe that she is not God, as she has done nothing at all to reveal herself in the knowable universe whereas the trinitarian God has.

2. Unbelievers typically take the easy way out and just accept an atheist / agnostic irrationality rather than continue to engage this discussion, or ever consider embracing a Hebrews 11:6 faith

3. Much of the discussion I see here is far beyond the average high school graduates level to engage. * I * like and appreciate it but your average person on the street won't. They'll just take route # 2, above. But Im glad for y'all to continue here. I will take what you say and try to distill it to Everyman's ability to understand
To piggyback on my previous post. The argument from Reason, is nice because of the influence and popularity of Evolutionary Theory in contemporary society (at least in the Western World, I doubt that people in Africa and the jungles of South America are all that interested in it).
I usually adjust it to point out that compared to CT that gives a holistic and meaningful description of everyday thoughts and feelings like love for instance, the Materialism of the age can't give you that. Transcendental Argument in practice.
I usually ask them to think about someone that they love very deeply and imagine trying to define that to me. Most people can't because it's so deep of a feeling that it escapes a comprehensive explanation. But they know how important it is to them.
I then point out that the holistic union of body and soul is why they feel that way. They know it's more than just chemical processes in the brain. You could also use art and movies to get to the same place by invoking the people in the painting or lack thereof and their emotional reality (those emotions, though on the screen or canvas) that we all experience are very real to people.
Then I take the other side and I point out that in Materialism the most that you can say is that the image or feeling is nothing more than a chemical process, just a drug addiction. And what description of their emotions seems more real to them, a holistically feeling of their body and soul or a thing that's no different than a drug addiction?
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I actually used that exact line in the 2000s, take it or leave it. LOL.
There's a first time for everything. I'd ask how that worked out but I think we both know. I once had a great failure using Sproul's method with a girl who had been abused sexually and that's why she didn't believe in God.
So I started laying out my Classical Arguments and it was a complete failure because she didn't need arguments (nor want them), she just needed a hug. Well Jacob I guess you and I are getting old enough to reflect on our failings.
If we could just have known then what we know now, now that's a philosophical problem my friend.
 
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Here's a thread that includes Jacob's fantastic review, you really do have a gift here my friend, on the Bosserman book that I mentioned. He raises very hard and intriguing questions about the book and subject matter.
I really recommend it to all. Enjoy.
 

Here's another review of the book. But it doesn't raise the questions that Jacob's does. Which is why reading both is beneficial.
 
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