Should I be opposed to her going to seminary?

[R. Scott Clark]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Dr.,
I am in no way advocating excluding woman from the ministerial scope. There are plenty of things that woman bless the church with their gifts. You ask about Math and english; I speak in terms of spiritual education; wives should learn from their husbands and children from their parents.

[Edited on 8-30-2005 by Scott Bushey]

Scott,

What about Mary? (Luke 10; ESV)

38 Now as they went on their way, Jesus entered a village. And a woman named Martha welcomed him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet and listened to his teaching. ...Mary has chosen the good portion, which will not be taken away from her."

This is not a stated worship service, they are not in Mary's home, and she is learning from Jesus. How does this example meet your tests?

I'm not pressing this issue because to cause trouble but because it doesn't seem fully thought out.

rsc

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Originally posted by no1special18
I doubt very many people will read this since it has grown old since last I posted, but I figured I should try to clarify a few things.

There are only two reasons why I would have potentially not wanted her to go to seminary:
1.) The finances (whether we could both afford to go). Also, whether it was the best use of money.
2.) I am somewhat new to reformed thought, and was not clear what the traditional reformed view held in regard to such matters. Clearly, scripture is my only authority, but I would do well to consider heavily how the reformed people before me have interpreted what the Bible had to say on this matter.

Just so everyone knows, I did not tell her that she could not go if we got married, only that I was not sure of the issue, and that is why I brought it before the board.

James,

I'm glad you raised this question. I'm not sure that this was ever an issue until the Modern period. Its a little like asking about views of the state. In the 16th and 17th century, most everyone, except Anabaptists, believed in Christendom (the church-state complex). Since the 18th century, most confessional Protestants have re-thought that issue. As much as I heartily reject Modernist philosophy and theology, it is a fact that Christendom collapsed of its own weight, felled by the 30 years war. In its wake, we had an opportunity to re-think church-state relations and, in my view, to be more consisten with the Protestant theory of two kingdoms (as opposed to the Roman view of the two swords).

The question of the role of women in the church and male/female relations generally received not a great deal of attention until rather late in the modern period. The truth is that just as some of our folk defended some noxious forms of slavery (manstealing, really) so too we tended to be chauvinistic in our view of females.

In a culture largely dominated by feminism, however, we have two choices: to react and re-assert the old chauvinistic view (women are incapable of x; women ought *only* to stay/learn at home etc) or we can respond biblically and carefully to the feminists by explaining the biblical doctrines of creation (there is a divinely instituted order) and redemption (it renews but does not obliterate creation).

I think CBMW (Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood - not a particularly felicitous name) has done a good job of articulating the complimentarian view (grace renews nature) in response to the feminist/egalitarian view (grace obliterates nature). CBMW is led by some of the better evangelical NT scholars and has published some careful research that avoids the pitfalls of reactionary fundamentalism.

Please give my warmest greetings to Dr Dave Reiter. We were seminary classmates and we're fellow Cornhuskers.

We've had a couple of students from GCC recently and they're doing well here.

As to finances, I can't speak for other schools, but I think we have a program for wives of students. If a wife is not taking a degree, she can audit courses for a nominal fee and we offer night courses that are particularly well-suited for this. For example, Dr Horton is teaching an introductory course in Reformed theology this fall.

Blessings,

rsc

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by no1special18
My girl friend and I were discussing our future (specifically us being married). Some how we got into spiritual submission and whether or not she should go to seminary. I have two questions: 1.) if we were married would it be within my duties as spiritual leader to make the final call on whether she goes into seminary? 2.) should I be opposed to her going to seminary (which I am).

Here is a little background that might be applicable to the situation:
- God willing I am going to be a pastor, so I am obviously going to seminary.
- She is studying to be a nurse, and wants to use her medical knowledge for the mission field.
- I pastor a overseas church, she works at the hospital or wherever they need nurses in the area (thats the general plan).

Yeah, be a man and tell her No-ooooooooooohhh and cite the appropriate Scripture, and gently ask her to submit to the man... Tell her to read the Bible or study your books, perhaps find some Bible video instruction course for a certificate for her to pursue. It's good that the weaker vessel wants to grow and study the Word. Perhaps, your seminary might have activities for pastor's wives.
:bigsmile:

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Puritanhead

Originally posted by no1special18
My girl friend and I were discussing our future (specifically us being married). Some how we got into spiritual submission and whether or not she should go to seminary. I have two questions: 1.) if we were married would it be within my duties as spiritual leader to make the final call on whether she goes into seminary? 2.) should I be opposed to her going to seminary (which I am).

Here is a little background that might be applicable to the situation:
- God willing I am going to be a pastor, so I am obviously going to seminary.
- She is studying to be a nurse, and wants to use her medical knowledge for the mission field.
- I pastor a overseas church, she works at the hospital or wherever they need nurses in the area (thats the general plan).

Yeah, be a man and tell her No-ooooooooooohhh and cite the appropriate Scripture, and gently ask her to submit to the man... Tell her to read the Bible or study your books, perhaps find some Bible video instruction course for a certificate for her to pursue. It's good that the weaker vessel wants to grow and study the Word. Perhaps, your seminary might have activities for pastor's wives.
:bigsmile:

Why would video instruction be any more appropriate than classroom instruction? What about books, for that matter? If a woman reads books on her own, is she not being instructed (albeit indirectly) by an outsider? Is this bad?

I'm not attempting to make an argument here, but I'm wondering about where you think the lines should be drawn and why.

 

[Augusta]

I read tons and audit classes and listen to hundreds of sermons etc. I really can't see how this would be wrong. I do think it is completely unnecessary for a woman to earn a degree in theology. I don't need a title. I just want to learn as much as I can about God. It is expensive and hard enough to put one person through college. I think the womans role is in the home therefore why the expense for her to have degree?

 

[puritangirl]

I think that women, like men, are commanded to know God and study His revealed Word. I don't think it's wrong for a woman to listen to sermons, audit classes and read books (although I think that if she has any questions, she should still ask her father or husband in order to show them respect as her head). A woman's primary job is to help her head, and I think that knowledge of God's Word is neccesary in order for her to be an adequate help-meet! I have also considered going to seminary, however, I hesitate because I know that it is never my place to teach a man. Because of this, I question why I would spend the money and put the work into acheiving a "degree" that I cannot really use. Why not just study for free? I have found from experience that the time and money that goes into a degree makes me feel guilty if I'm not using it. A woman who earns her seminary "degree" might be tempted to think herself a stronger vessel than the Bible describes. I think it's important for us to find joy and contentment in our "place." This takes active work because it does not come naturally for us. That said, I have good female friends who attend seminary and I understand and applaud their reasons. I think the desire to study theology is a good desire for any woman to have. But we are weak and it is easy to forget our place. A woman who attends seminary should make every effort to be extremely conscientious of this. Virginia Huguenot makes an interesting argument for non co-ed seminaries - I would like to study that more!

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Originally posted by puritangirl...(although I think that if she has any questions, she should still ask her father or husband in order to show them respect as her head).

...I know that it is never my place to teach a man.

...But we are weak and it is easy to forget our place.

Did Priscilla err in Acts 18:26 (Scripture says that "they took him and expalined..." regarding Apollos) or does that narrative reflect a distinction between authoritative teaching and non-authoritative teaching? I think the latter is true.

Any teaching by any laity is non-authoritative. Only teaching by those who have been examined by the church and who have been ordained to special office can be said to be official and authoritative.

Laity hold the general office of believer, but not special office. Paul is not issuing general instructions on whether females can ask questions in a school classroom. He is issuing apostolic commands regarding the conduct of public worship.

Given that context of corporate, public, worship. We should be careful about how we apply those passages.

We should also be careful to not to import either postmodern egalitarian (all views are equally valid) assumptions or Victorian (there is an scale of value among humans with males possessing more value than females) assumptions about sex roles into our reading and application of Scripture.

rsc

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark

Any teaching by any laity is non-authoritative. Only teaching by those who have been examined by the church and who have been ordained to special office can be said to be official and authoritative.

Dr, Clark,

While I agree with your comments above, I think we need to be careful with formulating arguments like this one quoted here. It is too easy to say (in a similar vein, and I am NOT saying you are proposing this), "well, even though we saw a woman give the sole exposition of Scripture during a worship service, since a woman by definition cannot preach or teach authoritatively, it must not have been preaching or teaching."

It is clear that women are prohibited by 1 Timothy 2 from not only authoritative teaching, but from presumptive authoritative teaching.

Again, I am sure that you are not saying that, but the quote above makes me a bit uneasy.

 

[Puritanhead]

Nevermind... Just break out the tranquilizer gun, put her down, and tag and release her back into the wild... get another girlfriend... she sounds too charismatic...

2 Tim 2:12 + 1 Cor 14:34
:bigsmile:

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
Nevermind... Just break out the tranquilizer gun, put her down, and tag and release her back into the wild... get another girlfriend... she sounds too charismatic...

2 Tim 2:12 + 1 Cor 14:34
:bigsmile:

Fortunately, you are just being ornary.

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo

Originally posted by Puritanhead
Yeah, be a man and tell her No-ooooooooooohhh and cite the appropriate Scripture, and gently ask her to submit to the man... Tell her to read the Bible or study your books, perhaps find some Bible video instruction course for a certificate for her to pursue. It's good that the weaker vessel wants to grow and study the Word. Perhaps, your seminary might have activities for pastor's wives.
:bigsmile:

Why would video instruction be any more appropriate than classroom instruction? What about books, for that matter? If a woman reads books on her own, is she not being instructed (albeit indirectly) by an outsider? Is this bad?

I'm not attempting to make an argument here, but I'm wondering about where you think the lines should be drawn and why.

If you wade past the tongue-in-cheek bit... you would see that jist of what I am saying is that women shouldn't pursue seminary because it is usually for preparation for pastoral ministry... I think it's good that women have interest in spiritual things... they should read books, listen to theological tapes, study the Bible, and be attentive to growing in the Word... I think you're presumping too much, but my humor usually clouds everything. I disdain the bubble-gum spirtuality amongst young Christian ladies, and applaud young ladies that are attentive to spiritual things.

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark

Any teaching by any laity is non-authoritative. Only teaching by those who have been examined by the church and who have been ordained to special office can be said to be official and authoritative.

Dr, Clark,

While I agree with your comments above, I think we need to be careful with formulating arguments like this one quoted here. It is too easy to say (in a similar vein, and I am NOT saying you are proposing this), "well, even though we saw a woman give the sole exposition of Scripture during a worship service, since a woman by definition cannot preach or teach authoritatively, it must not have been preaching or teaching."

It is clear that women are prohibited by 1 Timothy 2 from not only authoritative teaching, but from presumptive authoritative teaching.

Again, I am sure that you are not saying that, but the quote above makes me a bit uneasy.

Fred,

I should have made clear my assumption behind the comment, i.e., that there are three special offices (minister, elder, and deacon) and that only the minister, a teaching elder in the PCA, is authorized to conduct services. As I've made clear, females are not authorized to hold ministerial (or ruling) office (thus they cannot serve as elders). In the three-office view as I understand it, deacons are not a ruling office. In extraordinary cases, an elder (a ruling elder in the PCA) might conduct services. See Derke Bergmsa's essay on the three offices in the J. Armstrong, ed. The Compromised Church.

Conducting services or preaching is necessarily authoritative. In no case do I envision a female conducting services or preaching.

I'm aware that some in the PCA (and formerly in the PCA) have used the dodge, "well, it wasn't authoritative, so it's okay to have a female lead a service or expound scripture in chapel." That was not my intent.

My intent is to combat the pressing tide of democratric egalitarianism that flattens out distinctions between "official" and "unofficial" and "special" and "general" office.

Some fellow or woman giving his or her private opinion about a passage does not constitute "teaching" in the Biblical or Reformed/Presbyterian sense. Hence, when a female takes a course in engineering or theology or if Priscilla helps Apollos to understand the history of redemption, that is not "teaching" or the exercise of authority forbidden by apostolic decree.

Hence, we should worry less about females taking an MA and teaching in a Christian school or college and more about the assumption that "my private opinion is just as valid as the pastor's." Teaching in a high school or college or taking courses in a seminary is not the same thing as the exercise of authority. On such a definition, the phrase "exercise of authority" has been so broadened as to lose meaning.

rsc

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark

Any teaching by any laity is non-authoritative. Only teaching by those who have been examined by the church and who have been ordained to special office can be said to be official and authoritative.

Dr, Clark,

While I agree with your comments above, I think we need to be careful with formulating arguments like this one quoted here. It is too easy to say (in a similar vein, and I am NOT saying you are proposing this), "well, even though we saw a woman give the sole exposition of Scripture during a worship service, since a woman by definition cannot preach or teach authoritatively, it must not have been preaching or teaching."

It is clear that women are prohibited by 1 Timothy 2 from not only authoritative teaching, but from presumptive authoritative teaching.

Again, I am sure that you are not saying that, but the quote above makes me a bit uneasy.

Fred,

I should have made clear my assumption behind the comment, i.e., that there are three special offices (minister, elder, and deacon) and that only the minister, a teaching elder in the PCA, is authorized to conduct services. As I've made clear, females are not authorized to hold ministerial (or ruling) office (thus they cannot serve as elders). In the three-office view as I understand it, deacons are not a ruling office. In extraordinary cases, an elder (a ruling elder in the PCA) might conduct services. See Derke Bergmsa's essay on the three offices in the J. Armstrong, ed. The Compromised Church.

Conducting services or preaching is necessarily authoritative. In no case do I envision a female conducting services or preaching.

I'm aware that some in the PCA (and formerly in the PCA) have used the dodge, "well, it wasn't authoritative, so it's okay to have a female lead a service or expound scripture in chapel." That was not my intent.

My intent is to combat the pressing tide of democratric egalitarianism that flattens out distinctions between "official" and "unofficial" and "special" and "general" office.

Some fellow or woman giving his or her private opinion about a passage does not constitute "teaching" in the Biblical or Reformed/Presbyterian sense. Hence, when a female takes a course in engineering or theology or if Priscilla helps Apollos to understand the history of redemption, that is not "teaching" or the exercise of authority forbidden by apostolic decree.

Hence, we should worry less about females taking an MA and teaching in a Christian school or college and more about the assumption that "my private opinion is just as valid as the pastor's." Teaching in a high school or college or taking courses in a seminary is not the same thing as the exercise of authority. On such a definition, the phrase "exercise of authority" has been so broadened as to lose meaning.

rsc

Scott,

Thanks for the clarification. I agree completely with your intent written above. I assumed that it was the case, but I wanted it to be crystal clear. We have many who read the Board that are not familiar with all the "in's and out's" of this issue.

I did not want others to twist your words into saying something that I presumed they did not.

Blessings,

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Puritanhead

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo

Originally posted by Puritanhead
Yeah, be a man and tell her No-ooooooooooohhh and cite the appropriate Scripture, and gently ask her to submit to the man... Tell her to read the Bible or study your books, perhaps find some Bible video instruction course for a certificate for her to pursue. It's good that the weaker vessel wants to grow and study the Word. Perhaps, your seminary might have activities for pastor's wives.
:bigsmile:

Why would video instruction be any more appropriate than classroom instruction? What about books, for that matter? If a woman reads books on her own, is she not being instructed (albeit indirectly) by an outsider? Is this bad?

I'm not attempting to make an argument here, but I'm wondering about where you think the lines should be drawn and why.

If you wade past the tongue-in-cheek bit... you would see that jist of what I am saying is that women shouldn't pursue seminary because it is usually for preparation for pastoral ministry... I think it's good that women have interest in spiritual things... they should read books, listen to theological tapes, study the Bible, and be attentive to growing in the Word... I think you're presumping too much, but my humor usually clouds everything. I disdain the bubble-gum spirtuality amongst young Christian ladies, and applaud young ladies that are attentive to spiritual things.

Of course. Thank you for clarifying.

The main points I'm wondering about:

1. Is there a Biblical reason why seminary should only be for pastoral preparation? Why is it sinful for a lay person to pursue academic knowledge of theological subjects? And if it is not (and I'm sure you're not claiming it is), why is going to seminary solely for the education wrong? (The main issue is that most people do not have the time or money to go to seminary just for the sake of knowledge.)

2. The only difference I see between reading books/listening to tapes and actually attending classes is that in the latter case, the woman receives an in-person explanation of the material. In either case, I would agree that a woman should look to her father/husband for guidance in interpreting the book/tape/lecture, but provided this is all within the approval and general direction of the woman's head, I don't see why there is a distinction between in-person instruction and written or recorded instruction.

 

[turmeric]

$$$$$ that's why!

 

[bond-servant]

Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with me going to seminary for a masters

It's distance learning, at the pace that does not tax my family or my duties;

it is with the blessing of my husband

There are no classes on preaching, nor am I , or will I be ordained.

The degree is only a general Christian Studies degree, and the majority of classes emphasized are :hermeneutics, systematic Theology and church history.

I am a home-schooling mom who gave up her programming career when my 1st son was borm to stay home. Whitefield has provided me far more intellectual stimulation (and sanity!) than listening to sermons and studying on my own, leading womens Bible studies, etc. which I have done for 8 years

This provides me in-depth, correct Bible teaching, and I can pass this on to my children as well as the ladies ministries I am involved in, as well as what I previously mentioned: intellectual God-centered stimulation and thought which keeps me sain!

Why not just take classes, and why go on a masters track? If I am going to invest my time and money, 1) I would like to have something concrete to "show" for it, 2) the degree may or may not help with future lay womens or childrens ministries I am involved in.

I 100% agree that a women should not be ordained, nor preach, nor in any way be over a man. But I don't see how going to seminary in these conditions qualifies as any of that...
I think many women attend seminary for one or many similar reasons to that which I've mentioned.

Parts of this thread are quite perplexing to me?

I am totally open to correction here if I am mistaken....

 

[BrianBowman]

Beth,

I've been very impressed with the humility and content of your posts on this and other threads. I believe it can be observed that Whitefield is a very conservative Reformed Seminary with formidable scholars (like our own Matt McMahon) who are known for their comprehensive understanding of God's Word. As such, if the intelligentsia at Whitefield, whom you are presently more accoutable to (besides your husband of course) than anyone on this board, allow you to take courses toward a degree, then I would simply rest in that.

Your motives are very pure, as a disciple and servant of our Lord Jesus Christ you desire to know Him in greater depth and gain a better understanding of his Church through the ages. This should be the goal of more men and women.

My wife has an undergrad in Biblical Studies (gained entirely while she was a single missionary serving faithfully *under* a Pastor) and it has made her an incredible helpmate and friend in my quest to Know Jesus and make Him known.

Peace to you and yours!


Brian

[Edited on 9-4-2005 by BrianBowman]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by bond-servant
Honestly, I don't see what's wrong with me going to seminary for a masters

It's distance learning, at the pace that does not tax my family or my duties;

it is with the blessing of my husband

There are no classes on preaching, nor am I , or will I be ordained.

The degree is only a general Christian Studies degree, and the majority of classes emphasized are :hermeneutics, systematic Theology and church history.

I am a home-schooling mom who gave up her programming career when my 1st son was borm to stay home. Whitefield has provided me far more intellectual stimulation (and sanity!) than listening to sermons and studying on my own, leading womens Bible studies, etc. which I have done for 8 years

This provides me in-depth, correct Bible teaching, and I can pass this on to my children as well as the ladies ministries I am involved in, as well as what I previously mentioned: intellectual God-centered stimulation and thought which keeps me sain!

Why not just take classes, and why go on a masters track? If I am going to invest my time and money, 1) I would like to have something concrete to "show" for it, 2) the degree may or may not help with future lay womens or childrens ministries I am involved in.

I 100% agree that a women should not be ordained, nor preach, nor in any way be over a man. But I don't see how going to seminary in these conditions qualifies as any of that...
I think many women attend seminary for one or many similar reasons to that which I've mentioned.

Parts of this thread are quite perplexing to me?

I am totally open to correction here if I am mistaken....

Beth,
Would it not be more prudent to invest your time in other ways as a woman of God, a wife and mother?

 

[bond-servant]

Scott,

While I appreciate your question, 99% of my day is directed that way. And has been for years and years.

I now take a few hours for "myself" to formally study God's Word.
My day goes something like this:

After my quiet time with God that begins before 6am.
Most of my time is spent with the kids homeschooling, preparing three homecooked meals a day, making our own bread (including grinding it from the wheat kernals), grocery shopping, cleaning house, doing laundry, driving the kids to extra-curricular activities, womens prayer group, church activities and a plethera of other things. My husband and I catch up with each others days events and then my day ends with quiet time with God again.

I had spent so much time in service of others, for years and years I went without any time for *me*.

What is the problem with wanting formal training of God's Word? Would it be better for me to take the little extra time a day I have and maybe go bowling, watch tv, play cards.......?

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by bond-servant
Scott,

While I appreciate your question, 99% of my day is directed that way. And has been for years and years.

I now take a few hours for "myself" to formally study God's Word.
My day goes something like this:

After my quiet time with God that begins before 6am.
Most of my time is spent with the kids homeschooling, preparing three homecooked meals a day, making our own bread (including grinding it from the wheat kernals), grocery shopping, cleaning house, doing laundry, driving the kids to extra-curricular activities, womens prayer group, church activities and a plethera of other things. My husband and I catch up with each others days events and then my day ends with quiet time with God again.

I had spent so much time in service of others, for years and years I went without any time for *me*.

What is the problem with wanting formal training of God's Word? Would it be better for me to take the little extra time a day I have and maybe go bowling, watch tv, play cards.......?

It seems that investing time in your education will also help you to be an even better homeschool mom.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I have to throw in a ditto here. Women like Beth ARE making their role just that...their role. And as a busy SAHM hsing mother, we do get bogged down and rarely get much time to stop and focus solely on God. And so many of the "women's books" out there are pure emotionalism or pop spirituality. Some of us are ready for meat!

 

[bond-servant]

Evie, yes, I do believe it makes me a better homeschool mom
Colleen, exactly - I DO crave meat... theologically sound meat!

And, one thing I was neglect to interject: by the end of the day, and by the time Steve and I have uninterupted 1-1 time to catch up and chat etc, he is way to tired to have a 'deep' conversation with me. Work takes so much out of him, those conversations are usually saved for, {and treasured by me } on the weekends.

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
Of course. Thank you for clarifying.

The main points I'm wondering about:

1. Is there a Biblical reason why seminary should only be for pastoral preparation? Why is it sinful for a lay person to pursue academic knowledge of theological subjects? And if it is not (and I'm sure you're not claiming it is), why is going to seminary solely for the education wrong? (The main issue is that most people do not have the time or money to go to seminary just for the sake of knowledge.)

2. The only difference I see between reading books/listening to tapes and actually attending classes is that in the latter case, the woman receives an in-person explanation of the material. In either case, I would agree that a woman should look to her father/husband for guidance in interpreting the book/tape/lecture, but provided this is all within the approval and general direction of the woman's head, I don't see why there is a distinction between in-person instruction and written or recorded instruction.

Well, I'll be serious a lay-off the tongue-in-cheek "misogynist" remarks.

No, I don't guess it is inherently sinful for women to pursue theological knowledge in a classroom. But, one can get a Bachelor's Degree in Biblical Studies... And I concede seminaries offer an array of specialty degrees besides M.Divs-- catering to missions, choir music, and evangelism for example. Nonetheless, graduate studies seem to be indicative of a professional commitment... I know the disciples and apostles all had professions-- Luke was a doctor, Matthew a tax collector, Paul a tentmaker, etc. and they had no seminaries in their time, but it seems like the pursuit of graduate seminary studies reflect a serious commitment for preparing for a ministry calling. So, why does a woman need to pursue graduate seminary studies? Can't a woman find other outlets (perhaps less costly as well) for growing in knowledge? Hence, my pointing to videos and books.

I know Knox doesn't accept women as per the WCF but RTS accepts women. I'm orthodox in my view on women on the church, and I'm sorry I could not resist the temptation to joke about women in ministry and render the waters murky.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Puritanhead

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
Of course. Thank you for clarifying.

The main points I'm wondering about:

1. Is there a Biblical reason why seminary should only be for pastoral preparation? Why is it sinful for a lay person to pursue academic knowledge of theological subjects? And if it is not (and I'm sure you're not claiming it is), why is going to seminary solely for the education wrong? (The main issue is that most people do not have the time or money to go to seminary just for the sake of knowledge.)

2. The only difference I see between reading books/listening to tapes and actually attending classes is that in the latter case, the woman receives an in-person explanation of the material. In either case, I would agree that a woman should look to her father/husband for guidance in interpreting the book/tape/lecture, but provided this is all within the approval and general direction of the woman's head, I don't see why there is a distinction between in-person instruction and written or recorded instruction.

Well, I'll be serious a lay-off the tongue-in-cheek "misogynist" remarks.

No, I don't guess it is inherently sinful for women to pursue theological knowledge in a classroom. But, one can get a Bachelor's Degree in Biblical Studies... And I concede seminaries offer an array of specialty degrees besides M.Divs-- catering to missions, choir music, and evangelism for example. Nonetheless, graduate studies seem to be indicative of a professional commitment... I know the disciples and apostles all had professions-- Luke was a doctor, Matthew a tax collector, Paul a tentmaker, etc. and they had no seminaries in their time, but it seems like the pursuit of graduate seminary studies reflect a serious commitment for preparing for a ministry calling. So, why does a woman need to pursue graduate seminary studies? Can't a woman find other outlets (perhaps less costly as well) for growing in knowledge? Hence, my pointing to videos and books.

I know Knox doesn't accept women as per the WCF but RTS accepts women. I'm orthodox in my view on women on the church, and I'm sorry I could not resist the temptation to joke about women in ministry and render the waters murky.

Oh, you didn't offend me at all.

 

[LadyFlynt]

I think we are turning this subject away from the context it was intended.

The fiance is wanting to take "courses", not pursue a degree.

The male fiance is pursuing ministry.

Seminaries don't just permit, they ENCOURAGE the wives of these men to take certain courses alongside their husband and I believe they have good reason for doing so. From having been on a Pastor's Wives forum, quite a few of them women see their husband's vocation as having NOTHING to do with them, but merely a job they go to. Blocking the wives out of learning alongside only instigates this view.

 

[Laura]

Originally posted by Puritanhead

I know Knox doesn't accept women as per the WCF but RTS accepts women. I'm orthodox in my view on women on the church, and I'm sorry I could not resist the temptation to joke about women in ministry and render the waters murky.

Ehm...Knox Seminary doesn't accept women? My friend and her sister have been auditing classes for a couple of years now and have encouraged me to get my MA in Christianity and Culture there. ?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
I have to throw in a ditto here. Women like Beth ARE making their role just that...their role. And as a busy SAHM hsing mother, we do get bogged down and rarely get much time to stop and focus solely on God. And so many of the "women's books" out there are pure emotionalism or pop spirituality. Some of us are ready for meat!

Get it from your husbands and pastors...........

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by bond-servant
Evie, yes, I do believe it makes me a better homeschool mom
Colleen, exactly - I DO crave meat... theologically sound meat!

And, one thing I was neglect to interject: by the end of the day, and by the time Steve and I have uninterupted 1-1 time to catch up and chat etc, he is way to tired to have a 'deep' conversation with me. Work takes so much out of him, those conversations are usually saved for, {and treasured by me } on the weekends.

Beth,
Does your husband have a degree in theology?

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by Laura

Originally posted by Puritanhead

I know Knox doesn't accept women as per the WCF but RTS accepts women. I'm orthodox in my view on women on the church, and I'm sorry I could not resist the temptation to joke about women in ministry and render the waters murky.

Ehm...Knox Seminary doesn't accept women? My friend and her sister have been auditing classes for a couple of years now and have encouraged me to get my MA in Christianity and Culture there. ?

Okay... I stand corrected... but they don't accept women for their M.Div. program... I know that for sure.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
I have to throw in a ditto here. Women like Beth ARE making their role just that...their role. And as a busy SAHM hsing mother, we do get bogged down and rarely get much time to stop and focus solely on God. And so many of the "women's books" out there are pure emotionalism or pop spirituality. Some of us are ready for meat!

Get it from your husbands and pastors...........

okay....do I need to go into my mennonite story file box and all the ignorant women out there. They aren't permitted to have bible studies and are looked down on for reading. They are supposed to "get it from their husbands". My husband likes that I can intelligiently communicate on the subjects he's studying. (However, I'm not out for my MDiv as I don't believe I have any business doing so)