Sources on Islamic Eschatology?

[RamistThomist]

I finished the Quran a few weeks ago and it had some stuff on eschatology, but it was fairly vague and obviously plagiarized from the Christian tradition. I ask this because I am working on an apologetic angle towards other theistic religions and I want to know as much as I can. An Amazon search yielded mainly sensationalist stuff, like whether Obama, an obvious Islamist, is the Antichrist. Stuff like that.

 

[GloriousBoaz]

Hey I just started reading the Quran. Whats your take on reading it, not just their theology, but really on the Quran itself; first impression; a one sentence description based on your experience?

I am reading this right now seems decent but its pre~mill and highly skewed that way. I would say that if preMill turns out to be correct, this is a likely scenario. Amazon.com: The Islamic Antichrist: The Shocking Truth about the Real Nature of the Beast eBook: Joel Richardson: Kindle Store

I was reading it with a friend to talk it over and we got side tracked, so I can't review it. Look at the table of contents you might find it useful. It talks about the Madhi and the Dajjal, etc. Its cheap on kindle. A few of his thoughts in the appendex on why eschatology is important actually convicted me because I usually take the pan trib view. That it will pan out in the end. And not because I'm lazy, but because I am studying every other possible doctrine known to man before it; presuppositional apologetics, young earth, covenant/new covenant/dispensationalism, eccelesiology, just to name a few (I have a list of over 300 lol). So eschatology has taken a back seat. I don't know anything else about this author so if you read it discerning.

 

[Covenant Joel]

I assume you're asking about the Islamic view of eschatology as opposed to any supposed involvement of Islam in actual eschatology?

 

[yeutter]

Islamic Eschatology is very confusing. Their is a clear end time battle culminating in the victory or Allah and his people and a final judgment. That much all Muslims will agree on. The various sects of Islam depart from each other radically beyond that point. Some groups seem to be guided by tradition that is not included in the Koran [Quran]

 

[Leslie]

I downloaded the Joel Richardson book and started reading. It starts good, anyway. The guy seems to have his head screwed on right.

 

[RamistThomist]

Hey I just started reading the Quran. Whats your take on reading it, not just their theology, but really on the Quran itself; first impression; a one sentence description based on your experience?

I am reading this right now seems decent but its pre~mill and highly skewed that way. I would say that if preMill turns out to be correct, this is a likely scenario. Amazon.com: The Islamic Antichrist: The Shocking Truth about the Real Nature of the Beast eBook: Joel Richardson: Kindle Store

I was reading it with a friend to talk it over and we got side tracked, so I can't review it. Look at the table of contents you might find it useful. It talks about the Madhi and the Dajjal, etc. Its cheap on kindle. A few of his thoughts in the appendex on why eschatology is important actually convicted me because I usually take the pan trib view. That it will pan out in the end. And not because I'm lazy, but because I am studying every other possible doctrine known to man before it; presuppositional apologetics, young earth, covenant/new covenant/dispensationalism, eccelesiology, just to name a few (I have a list of over 300 lol). So eschatology has taken a back seat. I don't know anything else about this author so if you read it discerning.

One sentence summary: quasi-pagan Arabian folklore which heavily plagiarized from Jewish and Christian sources. A few surahs were interesting (the ones dealing with houris)

I am familiar with Richardson's thesis (I am premil, too). I think a better argument can be made for Russian/Iran = Gog/Magog, but his take is defensible.

 

[GloriousBoaz]

Russian/Iran = Gog/Magog

Really? Interesting. I find it interesting how Islam has their messiah the Madhi and their Jesus who will return one day, which seems to coorelate to the beast and the false prophet especially since Islam believe one will give power to the other (I forget which) also they say Jesus will return do many signs, wonders, miracles and then announce he is a muslim and never died and resurrected, which seems to comport with 2 Thess. and Mt. 24. There are a lot more parallels.

I always fancied if I had to guess that an Islamic caliph and the pope would be the Anti~Christ and the false prophet. But I need to study out historic premill, I was raised in a dispensationalism premill, but I have been listening to a lot of postmill guys lately and haven't ever really looked into historic, and Amill just seems to be postmill, I haven't quite got a good handle on the fine distinctions there.

 

[RamistThomist]

Russian/Iran = Gog/Magog

Really? Interesting. I find it interesting how Islam has their messiah the Madhi and their Jesus who will return one day, which seems to coorelate to the beast and the false prophet especially since Islam believe one will give power to the other (I forget which) also they say Jesus will return do many signs, wonders, miracles and then announce he is a muslim and never died and resurrected, which seems to comport with 2 Thess. and Mt. 24. There are a lot more parallels.

I always fancied if I had to guess that an Islamic caliph and the pope would be the Anti~Christ and the false prophet. But I need to study out historic premill, I was raised in a dispensationalism premill, but I have been listening to a lot of postmill guys lately and haven't ever really looked into historic, and Amill just seems to be postmill, I haven't quite got a good handle on the fine distinctions there.

I've always understood Gog/Magog to be prior to (and totally distinct from) the rise of Antichrist and False Prophet. It's not a hill on which I am going to die, but that's how I see the chronology

 

[Leslie]

So the scarlet harlot is Rome and the Beast is the Mahdi and somehow they get together, do their evil thing and then the coalition goes to pot? This makes sense. I got and read The Islamic Antichrist; very interesting. Between that and The Closing of the Muslim Mind, the news makes a bit more sense. Though the understanding hardly provides comfort. Turkey is supposed to be important there also, but we don't see that yet. They are still pretty secular.

 

[GloriousBoaz]

Cool, like I said for me these are interesting speculations, I wouldn't ground an entire theological system upon them, nor do I even claim to stand firmly on these views but my guess if there is a connection to the beast and the anti Christ, it could very well have to do with Rome and/or Islam. Possibly some weird new age/tolerance/"golden rule"/ecumenical conglomeration being the mode of uniting these two opposite factions against the old school/intolerant/"immoral"/divisive Christians.

So you read the entire book of Islamic AntiChrist? wow you whipped through it! I still keep getting side tracked away from it. Any memorable insights?

 

[Leslie]

I must admit to having fast-forwarded through some of it. The guy is wordy. While he claims that all the teachings are from the Koran and the Hadith, yet many of his quotes are from individual Islamic scholars. I wonder if what he writes is really as universally taught as what he gives the impression it is. It would be like someone representing Christian belief by quoting from Martin Luther which represents only one segment of Christianity.

There are a lot of questions. It seems that the Mahdi is to come from the Shi'ites, but he will unite both the Shi'ites and the Sunnis. A very quick but light-weight, popular read on this, in fiction, is The Twelfth Imam. In this the Mahdi appears in Iran which is mainly Shi'ite, but then he goes to Mecca which is in Saudi Arabia and Sunni. Sunnis are the radical Islamists, according to The Closing of the Muslum Mind. This brought me back to Revelation, which book I've largely ignored in past years. Since the harlot is the city that reigns (present tense) over the kings of the earth and sits on 7 hills, it has to be Rome. Or it could be the Holy Roman Empire, of which Hitler founded the Third Reich. Someone claimed that there is a 666 associated with Hitler. Maybe so, maybe not. Perhaps there are negotiations between Rome or the Roman Empire (Europe?) and the beast, an agreement. The harlot seems to have wealth but not political/military power in and of herself. It's interesting that harlot/Rome is female, but the beast and false prophet are males. She prospers initially because of the beast (?Mahdi?) but then is destroyed by him. Some of the disasters that overtake the world are consistent with nuclear events. The technology is already here for confining buying and selling to those who have loyalty to the beast. We had best learn subsistence farming. As world events develop, the whole vision does not seems as far-out as it did 20 years ago.

I wish it were possible to go back and re-read these books. But my Kindle died, and I can't replace it soon. They are not sold in-country. Try The Twelfth Imam, but don't get put off by the supernatural stuff in it. Particularly the blind old man who arises toward the end of the book is worth listening to.

Is there anything else you can recommend to read? I may be able to download from Amazon and read on my computer. Haven't done that yet, but it's a way around my blank Kindle screen.

 

[GloriousBoaz]

While he claims that all the teachings are from the Koran and the Hadith, yet many of his quotes are from individual Islamic scholars. I wonder if what he writes is really as universally taught as what he gives the impression it is. It would be like someone representing Christian belief by quoting from Martin Luther which represents only one segment of Christianity.

That's a really good point and I wonder that a lot with secondary resources a lot anymore, an example would be in an article of Horton on Finney that I know he wasn't trying to be dishonest but he used a quote out of context that sounded like Finney denied the atonement, but I read it in context and Finney was arguing against limited atonement, which is a big deal but not Horton's proper use, I think this was just a mistake on Hortons part, but even though there are a lot of honest and great scholars in our day, face it this is not the era of scholarship and worse there are a lot of intellectually dishonest or imprecise writers out there now a days.

A couple thoughts: 7 hills, my old pastor used to say always when he preached through Revelation that is is 70% old testament imagery. He then said that hills are the same as mountains which in the old testament is kingdoms, so therefore 7 kingdoms and this isn't Rome. He was the first one that opened my mind to the possibility of Islam being the major end time force of evil. He interprets the mark of the beast to be mental assent (the forehead mark) and devotion to and commitment to Sharia law (the right hand mark).

I have wondered though about Rome and Islam becoming buddy buddy, if you have ever seen the picture of the Pope visiting (i believe it was) an Imam or Caliph and kissed the Qur'an out of "respect". The picture shows him bowing over to kiss it too. I looked it up in what catholics where saying in RC forums and they seemed to think the photo was legit and a lot of them didn't have a problem with it.

Also the Catholic Cathecism says this in 841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Scary stuff.

I don't really have any other book suggestions I haven't been able to study up on those topics lately I have a lot of other theology on my plate. I say that 12th Imam book and wondered about it though.

Some of the disasters that overtake the world are consistent with nuclear events.

This I agree things like the description in Ezekiel about your tongue dissolving while standing up could be a reference to nuclear war, but I have heard others use that to say that it will be zombies. Either way we need to be careful not to naturalize it too much just like with creation theology, we must let there be a supernatural element to things. For example there is a progressive creationist who says the universe must be billions of years old or gas clouds couldn't have formed into stars, but this is an overly naturalistic interpretation that then excludes God's ability to supernaturally create the stars fully formed instantaneously. And if it is between coming up with a naturalistic explanation like nuclear war to explain 2 Peter 3 or a supernatural act of God, until further evidence (or further prophetic fulfillment)presents itself, or the event itself happens, i'm going to go with supernatural.

The technology is already here for confining buying and selling to those who have loyalty to the beast.

This is quite true. Some of my family at thanksgiving were talking about here in America, some people already started getting RFID chip implants for OBAMAcare and though they didn't say anything about anti~Christ they were purposefully kinda speculating without saying it. I don't know that the RFID microchip scenario really fits with the text, I think the Sharia Law example makes more sense. I don't like to get too much into speculation in this kinda stuff. That's all my thoughts right now.

 

[Leslie]

Very interesting thoughts. The Twelfth Imam is in the category of "cheap novel", will never be a classic unless it comes true. When your brain is too tired for theology, give it a try.

I downloaded the Kindle for Computer program and presto: every book I ever bought on Kindle, all 136, are now on my computer, available for reading. So The Islamic Antichrist is now available for a reread.

I appreciate what you say about our not naturalizing Biblical narratives. If you look at the thread about Mental Illnes vs Demonization, that is also an issue there. One pastor actually denied the existence of demons. It's a continual drag that our culture has on our worldviews.

 

[ReformedChristian]

You might want to check some stuff from Samuel Zwemmer he is considered authoritative of Islam. Here is also a comparative index Comparative Index to Islam - from the Qur'an, Hadiths, Taurat, Injil and other sources you might find something there.

 

[GloriousBoaz]

There's been a lot of liberal scholar's who have tried to naturalise the miracles of Christ, for instance the "swoon theory", the theory on Jesus walking on the shore line but it appeared he was walking on water. The truth is that you can convince an atheist that the resurrection happened (for instance) but they will never give into the supernatural, they will just say "there must be a naturalistic explanation that will surface in the future" funny thing is they are putting all their eggs in one basket when they lump all supernatural events they cannot explain into one place in their mind under the heading "someday a naturalistic explanation will arise" and that basket is a basket of faith. They have faith that a explanation will arise, when they have no empiracle reason to believe one will, they have no evidences pointing in that direction at all, its faith.

Thanks Christopher, answeringislam.org is a great resource I had forgotten about it. Also I forgot I have a book on my shelf I haven't read yet with the same title but it was authored by norm Geisler, don't know how good it is but Geisler tends to be pretty good (on any subject but Calvinism that is).

 

[ReformedChristian]