Survey on Your Eschatology

Discussion in 'Revelation & Eschatology' started by C. Matthew McMahon, Dec 8, 2016.

  1. Premillennial

    6 vote(s)
    5.5%
  2. Amillennial

    75 vote(s)
    68.2%
  3. Postmillennial / Partial Preterist

    27 vote(s)
    24.5%
  4. Preterist More than Partial

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Panmillennial (It will all pan out in the end. Unsure)

    7 vote(s)
    6.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    No; that is the carnal kingdom for which the Jews were seeking, and it caused them to stumble over the Stone laid in Zion. Many of the kingdom parables of Jesus directly refute the Jews' expectation of a carnal kingdom, and the apostle Paul especially drew attention to the present reality of Christ's mediatorial dominion over all things as the basis for Gentile inclusion in the benefits of the kingdom. Moreover, the Epistle to the Hebrews is very clear that the "perfect" administration of grace and the present enjoyment of heavenly access depends upon Christ being seated at the right hand of God.
     
  2. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    How can Christ advance His kingdom any more by His Gospel after His glorious Second Advent?

    E.g. There is no more room for faith since it is swallowed up by sight. Has He got a second plan for advancing and building and completing His kingdom rather than through His Word, by His Spirit, through His Church and in His historical providence?

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  3. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    The scriptures do also seem to indicate though that at His return, Jesus sets up the Millinual Kingdom here on Earth, to have literally His will done on earth as now is in Heaven! Just saying that I agree wth Spurgeon on ths issue!
     
  4. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    Think that He sets it up here upon the earth then, and at the end of it, gives it all back to the Father as God will then be all in all!
     
  5. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    I Corinthians 15:24-25. There is no change in Christ's reigning here. Christ is already reigning and putting His enemies under His feet currently and could have no more power to do so if He reigned from a dusty, cursed sin-tainted Jerusalem ( Matthew 28:18).

    Good men have held to historical premillenialism and good men have held to dispensational premillenialism, but the latter isn't Reformed and the former is probably not Confessional. I agree that this area of general eschatology of what happens between now and the end is a difficult area of Bible study and has got more muddied with the advent of dispensationalism causing confusion, but it should be relatively easy with some study for the Reformed to see that premillenialism is in error and that the choice is between amil or postmil or a relationship between the two In my humble opinion.

    "Getting all your ducks in a row" on this isn't a matter of salvation narrowly construed but you have to ask basic questions about how you're studying this. E.g. come to conclusions about the non-apocalyptic passages before you look at the more difficult and symbolic apocalyptic passages.

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    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  6. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    If you would like to have a discussion on the point you will need to do more than simply claim "Scripture seems to indicate" such, especially when so much scriptural teaching has been brought into the discussion which militates against the position you are claiming.
     
  7. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    Just curious as to how the Historical Premil viewpoint downgrades the truth of Jesus as Lord and ruler over all things now?As the Bible seems to indicate that the Lord will have His reign over all the Earth during Messianic Kingdom period, so why would that be against the Confesions or Reformed theology proper?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  8. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    What is going on during this thousand year period you are claiming here? What events lead to its beginning? Lots of details are needed.
     
  9. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    The Lord Jesus has His second coming event, and the dead in Him have resurrected, as are also the living saints, and then ushered into the Kingdom here upon the Earth. All the nations here shall know and obey Jesus as the King, ansd there shall be like a paradise here, as curse undone on creation, Garden of Eden again here, and a state of no hunger/famine/ all get along together, as King Jesus rules with Hs iron rod. After that time, the Eternal State is then ushered in, with the New Jerusalem/new Heavens and Earth.
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    I will try to do better here.
    Revelation 20:1-4
    Do you see the first and second resurrections as not really being a time period between the 2 of them, and is the first resurrection at the Second Coming or not?
    Thanks
     
  11. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    The first resurrection is the intermediate state where the soul goes to be with Christ and the body rests in the grave till the second resurrection. The second resurrection is the resurrection of the whole man when the soul shall be reunited with its body in an immortal condition. The binding of Satan is an essential element of the saints reigning with Christ after they are dead. It is because Christ has destroyed him that had the power of death, the devil, that he holds the keys of hell and of death and delivers those who were bound by the fear of death. If Satan were not bound believers would still be subject to the fear of death.
     
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  12. arapahoepark

    arapahoepark Puritan Board Senior

    It comes down to matters of interpretation and with Revelation, it is quite difficult. Unlike dispensationalists, the majority of people throughout church history and scholars today see the book not be taken so woodenly literal but, that its full of symbols. Heck, even dispys admit that the beasts of the earth and Sea are symbols! To push back against some objections of the view as allegorical, we must say that clearly John wanted his book to be interpreted symbolically for things that would soon take place. Not that we are some how trying to evade a 'literal' hermeneutic whatever that means.
    Read Riddlebarger for a more in depth view as to why the thousand years are to be symbolic/figurative.
     
  13. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    But dosn't the text state that the first one will be when we are glorified at His econd coming? And when yo say Satan is bound now, do you mean tht he is locked down, or that the Gospe he cannot stop, but is still free to influence and wreak lives?
     
  14. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    Does that view though affect the first resurrection as happening at time of the Second Coming ? As regardlless if symbolic or literal 1000 years, thepasage still seems to say 2 seperate physical resurrections, or am I undertanding it wrong?
     
  15. arapahoepark

    arapahoepark Puritan Board Senior

    The amillennial view, typically, sees Revelation 19 and 20 as different camera angles of the same event. Akin to viewing in binoculars, two eyes to see in stereo. Why? Apocalyptic literature tends to do that plus there are many similarities between the two chapters. So what you would see as chronological with the thousand years they would not only a different telling of the second chapter, then followed by the Great White throne. The coming, judgment and resurrection are never treated as seperate events in the Gospels or Epistles.
    I would be with Winzer on the first and second resurrections.
     
  16. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    Never heard of that before, so those 2 chapters would really be looking at same events then?What about the view that the first resurrection refers to when one is born again, and second to time of glorification at Second Coming?
     
  17. arapahoepark

    arapahoepark Puritan Board Senior

    Yes.

    And, it could refer to that.
    Free ebook for you by a top notch NT scholar:
    http://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/the-returning-king/
     
  18. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    No, not at all. The reference is to the first coming of Jesus Christ in terms which are borrowed from the eschatological hope of the Old Testament concerning the kingdom of the saints.

    Under the Old Testament God suffered the nations to walk in their own ways and Satan operated under the permission of God as the deceiver of the nations. But now he has been cast out of heaven. Now God commands all men everywhere to repent. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the angel of the covenant, has bound Satan from deceiving the nations, and now proclaims the everlasting gospel in order to reap the harvest of the world before the day of judgment. On the other hand, there are those among the nations who reject and oppose the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and on these Satan is loosed to gather them for the great battle at the end of time; but it is one of the features of the book of Revelation that the battle itself never takes place. The King of kings and Lord of lords is so invincible that His foes cannot stand before Him.
     
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  19. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    So how would you explain then the last battle in the book between the lost und erSatan trying to take over the Lord Jesus and His Kingdom?
     
  20. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

  21. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    Just compled reading that book, and now do see how the Reformed perspective can refer to first resurrection as not being the glorified one, but of when spiritual born again. Also do see how the Book of Revelation can support multiple meanngs as to it being any of those main 4 views onit, Still would tend to see a premil Second Coming event, but now have more to think upon! My thinking is that it does portry struggle between God and Satan since time of Christ, and that there have been may antichrists an othes trying to stop the church, but there will be a final struggle hat plays out here on the church by last and final person, and Jesus returnsto set up His Kingdom. I once held to a pre trib rapture, but now historical Premil.
     
  22. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Sophomore

    Based upon reading th, and other things, guess would now see myself as being a Covenant PreMil person.
     
  23. MW

    MW Puritan Board Doctor

    As noted, it never actually takes place within the Book. Just as with the Exodus, Pharaoh and his army pursue the Israelites but never overtake them; the horse and the rider are thrown into the sea. The reason why the book of Revelation brings mighty powers of opposition to our attention is to comfort us with the assured knowledge that such powers are doomed to failure.
     
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  24. youthevang

    youthevang Puritan Board Freshman

    Postmillennial Preterist
     
  25. KGP

    KGP Puritan Board Freshman

    Ray! I saw that post a while back and wanted to respond but could not remember the tile or proper reference of the sermon. One came to mind right away; and I finally looked it up to get the reference. John McArthur on John 5:17-20 and Jesus statement 'My father is working until now, and I too am working.' http://www.gty.org/video/television/T8243-26


    As for my eschatology; I am amillennial as it presents the fewest obstacles when putting the whole bible together.




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  26. KGP

    KGP Puritan Board Freshman

    I recall your post some time ago now titled 'The church has not replaced Israel' and found it quite agreeable.

    Also want to thank you for posting your book; I've read 20 pages so far and been edified. It has been an encouragement to me, I've been stressed tonight and a good redemption story has been effective medicine. I'll have it all read before long.




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  27. Jerusalem Blade

    Jerusalem Blade Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Thanks, Kaleb!
     
  28. Herald

    Herald Moderator Staff Member

    Dale,

    I certainly agree that one's eschatological position should not be made a test of fellowship, but I would strongly encourage you to keep studying on this issue. I'm a Baptist, and was decidedly Dispensational when I embraced the Doctrines of Grace nearly 20 years ago. I'm a graduate of a Dispensational Bible college in upstate New York, that was openly antagonistic towards "replacement theology" (as they termed it). As the years went by after my graduation my personal study lead me ever-so-closer to challenging a myriad of Dispensational presuppositions. The pivotal moment for me was when I left Synergism for Monergism. Once the first domino fell the chain reaction ensued. So, keep on studying. Keep on challenging.
     
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  29. honkytonkopenairpreacher

    honkytonkopenairpreacher Puritan Board Freshman

    I affirm there is one underlying, foundational "Covenant of Grace" since the Fall under different administrations. It started in Genesis 3:15.
     
  30. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable Staff Member

    What are these "under different administrations" as relates to the LBCF?
     
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