Split P Soup?

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J.L. Allen

Puritan Board Sophomore
Folks,

Can you name all of the Presbyterian denominations that currently exist? For that matter, can you name all the continental/Dutch Reformed denominations currently in existence? Feel free to name one or more per post and say what you know about them.
 
Define denomination. Some of the so-called denominations don't have enough members to make a small church, and last time I looked, one of the so-called denominations was down to one small congregation.

Define Presbyterian - as noted, some groups with the name don't have enough folks to form a presbytery.

Defined Reformed.

Do you include apostate bodies?
 
Define denomination. Some of the so-called denominations don't have enough members to make a small church, and last time I looked, one of the so-called denominations was down to one small congregation.

Define Presbyterian - as noted, some groups with the name don't have enough folks to form a presbytery.

Defined Reformed.

Do you include apostate bodies?
Relatedly, I had a Muslim fellow complain to me that when he went to the US, he saw so many different denominations, while in Islam, there was only Shiite and Sunni.

I wanted to reply, but I find I really lack the cognitive architecture to explain denominations to somebody from the outside. It's definitely harder than you think. He was already on a different subject by the time I could formulate a fitting response anyway.

But how do you explain to someone that, for example, the Presbyterian Church in America can't really be in e.g. Australia, and that's not really a problem? It looks like disunity to outsiders.
 
Relatedly, I had a Muslim fellow complain to me that when he went to the US, he saw so many different denominations, while in Islam, there was only Shiite and Sunni.

I wanted to reply, but I find I really lack the cognitive architecture to explain denominations to somebody from the outside. It's definitely harder than you think. He was already on a different subject by the time I could formulate a fitting response anyway.

But how do you explain to someone that, for example, the Presbyterian Church in America can't really be in e.g. Australia, and that's not really a problem? It looks like disunity to outsiders.
Yeah, it's weird but I get it at the same time. I would have thought that because we all have the same Spirit, that the Spirit would lead His people in unity. Like pastors could just pray before studying a doctrine "God please enlighten us to the correct truth so that we might keep your Church in unity", and that the Holy Spirit would lead people to a unified understanding of doctrine.

But for whatever reasons I think we all have to admit that it was not God's will for the Church to be unified in such a way. We have religious freedoms and many different options of interpreting the Bible, so naturally people will branch off to practice religion the way they see fit. As helpful as it would be for all doctrines to be objective and clear, practicality they are very subjective matters.
 
Yeah, it's weird but I get it at the same time. I would have thought that because we all have the same Spirit, that the Spirit would lead His people in unity. Like pastors could just pray before studying a doctrine "God please enlighten us to the correct truth so that we might keep your Church in unity", and that the Holy Spirit would lead people to a unified understanding of doctrine.

But for whatever reasons I think we all have to admit that it was not God's will for the Church to be unified in such a way. We have religious freedoms and many different options of interpreting the Bible, so naturally people will branch off to practice religion the way they see fit. As helpful as it would be for all doctrines to be objective and clear, practicality they are very subjective matters.
I don't think division is God's desire. Sin and error divide. There is no good reason we shouldn't have a conservative Presbyterian church in this country instead of so many divisions large, small and tiny. As Durham said, “If union be the great step to edification as dissention and strife are the door that lets in distraction, then division and separation cannot be the cure, but union is the first and great step of edification. Therefore separation cannot be the cure. Separation has ever been the greatest enemy of edification and reformation.” James Durham, “A Sermon on Ephesians 4:11–12,” Collected Sermons of James Durham: Sixty-one Sermons (Naphtali Press and Reformation Heritage Books, August 2017), 933.
 
I don't think division is God's desire. Sin and error divide. There is no good reason we shouldn't have a conservative Presbyterian church in this country instead of so many divisions large, small and tiny. As Durham said, “If union be the great step to edification as dissention and strife are the door that lets in distraction, then division and separation cannot be the cure, but union is the first and great step of edification. Therefore separation cannot be the cure. Separation has ever been the greatest enemy of edification and reformation.” James Durham, “A Sermon on Ephesians 4:11–12,” Collected Sermons of James Durham: Sixty-one Sermons (Naphtali Press and Reformation Heritage Books, August 2017), 933.
I totally agree that this should be the ideal. I just don't know what that would look like practically without pastors violating their consciences and how they understand the Bible. If a Presbyterian pastor is studying the Bible very seriously and comes to understand the scriptures teaching a congregational form of government, he is either forced to submit to something he doesn't believe the Bible is teaching or has to make a change. It just seems like there are splits everywhere over everything. Either men are rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit when they are being led to understand a doctrine, or the Spirit is not enlightening men enough to keep them in unity it would seem.

It would seem that men like Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, and Matthew Henry were devoted enough to the things of God to where there should have been unity, but they just didn't understand the Bible in unity.

I honestly don't have the answers, that's just my observation and how my reasoning works. I could be way wrong.
 
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He doesn't know very much about Islam, then.
Actually he was extremely knowledgeable. He was a guide in Fes, Morocco, and he was telling me this in a mosque, as he explained the history and purposes of the construction of the building.

But you're right: I think he was... spinning things a bit. For my benefit.

He also showed me the home of Maimonides, btw, which was really cool to see.
 
Relatedly, I had a Muslim fellow complain to me that when he went to the US, he saw so many different denominations, while in Islam, there was only Shiite and Sunni.
Which is, of course, a falsehood. Some counts go up to 73. I had remembered 5 major divisions at some point, but there are more than that. Wikipedia shows 30-some divisions in four major groups. I'll name a few that I recognize.

Sunni
Shiite
Druze
Alewite
Sufi
Ahmadiyya (3 or 4 miles from me)
Ismaili (they have a good sized Jamatkhana just down the street from me)


Of course, for debate purposes, the Roman Catholics have a couple of dozen denominations under two major divisions.
 
Which is, of course, a falsehood. Some counts go up to 73. I had remembered 5 major divisions at some point, but there are more than that. Wikipedia shows 30-some divisions in four major groups. I'll name a few that I recognize.

Sunni
Shiite
Druze
Alewite
Sufi
Ahmadiyya (3 or 4 miles from me)
Ismaili (they have a good sized Jamatkhana just down the street from me)
That's not counting various cults like Nation of Islam.
 
Which is, of course, a falsehood. Some counts go up to 73. I had remembered 5 major divisions at some point, but there are more than that. Wikipedia shows 30-some divisions in four major groups. I'll name a few that I recognize.

Sunni
Shiite
Druze
Alewite
Sufi
Ahmadiyya (3 or 4 miles from me)
Ismaili (they have a good sized Jamatkhana just down the street from me)


Of course, for debate purposes, the Roman Catholics have a couple of dozen denominations under two major divisions.
Good luck convincing a Sunni that ahmadiyyas are Muslim, though. And the way this guy had it, Shiites only exist because Ali's followers refused to follow the dictates of the Koran and the decision of the majority, saying in effect they 'didn't matter,' they were so sure Ali was their guy.

I can kind of see their point, for the former: we don't consider Mormons Christian, after all.
 
Define denomination. Some of the so-called denominations don't have enough members to make a small church, and last time I looked, one of the so-called denominations was down to one small congregation.

Define Presbyterian - as noted, some groups with the name don't have enough folks to form a presbytery.

Defined Reformed.

Do you include apostate bodies?
I didn't know I would get a list of various sects of Islam when I made this thread!

Here are some non-exhaustive definitions I've come up with.

Denomination: a voluntary association in which separate bodies are united by common confession and ideals. (Yes, I would include federations and other associated bodies that do not use the term "denomination" in this, too.)

Presbyterian: churches that designate themselves, with official recognition by at least one other like-minded body within the same association, with adherence to the Westminster Confession of Faith, Larger Catechism, and/or Shorter Catechism.

Reformed: churches that designate themselves, with official recognition by at least one other like-minded body within the same association, with adherence to the Belgic Confession, the Heidelberg Catechism, and/or the Canons of Dort.

If you include apostate bodies, please specify that they are fallen away.
 
with adherence to the Westminster Confession of Faith, Larger Catechism, and/or Shorter Catechism.
Well, that didn't help. What do you mean by "adherence" - that's something that might include the PCUSA or which might exclude the PCA and/or the RPCNA.
 
Well, that didn't help. What do you mean by "adherence" - that's something that might include the PCUSA or which might exclude the PCA and/or the RPCNA.
It was meant to be broad. Feel free to contribute based on that.
 
@Edward

Different church bodies conceive of adherence differently, and I understand that. However, if they, rightly or wrongly, have a self-conception that includes what they believe to be confessional adherence, then that's what I'm interested in. I hope that helps. Maybe it doesn't, but that's the best I can do since there is such a wide birth between church bodies.
 
The North American Presbyterian and Reformed Council (NAPARC) includes the major (conservative) denominations/federations for the US and Canada. There may be smaller ones around, but they would be pretty small, indeed. From what I've seen, "reformed" churches are either mainline, independent, or belong to one of the NAPARC bodies.

 
Australia:
Presbyterian Church of Eastern Australia
Free Reformed Churches of Australia
Presbyterian Reformed Church of Australia

New Zealand:
Reformed Churches of New Zealand
Grace Presbyterian Churches of New Zealand [tend to have a 'loose' subscription to the WCF]

Scotland:
Free Church of Scotland
Free Church of Scotland (Continuing)

Austria and Switzerland:
The Evangelical Reformed Church of the Westminster Confession in Austria and Switzerland
 
Australia:

Evangelical Presbyterian Church
Southern Presbyterian Church
Reformed Presbyterian Church
Korean Presbyterian Churches in Oceania
 
On the Presbyterian side of the fence in the US:

PCUSA - apostate; multi-confessional
ECO (COEP) - tolerant of apostasy; multi-confessional
EPC - tolerant to a fault
PCA - tolerant to a fault
RPCNA - with an asterisk for their "Testimony"
OPC
ARP
RPCGA
KPCNA
Bible Presbyterian
Free Church of Scotland (micro in US, but part of a real denomination)
Free Church (Continuing) (micro in the US, but part of a real denomiation)


Omitting for now the Cumberlands and CREC; which require further discussion, and the micro denominations (which require an updated assessment of viability). Also omitting most of the Koreans, which I know little about.

Edit:
Micros listed in a post below
 
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Micro "denominations" in the US, more or less alphabetical order, with notes and links:

American Presbyterian Church - 2 Congregations http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/apc/apc-chuches/

Covenant Presbyterian Church - 13 Congregations https://covenant-presbyterian.org/churches

Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church – 2 US Congregations; one in Suriname https://www.covref.org/pages/church-directory.htm

Free Presbyterian Church - 12 Congregations in the US; additional 10 in Canada and Mexico https://fpcna.org/directory/

Presbyterian Reformed Church – 7 Congregations https://presbyterianreformed.org/#

Reformed Presbyterian Church - Hanover Presbytery – 15 member congregations, plus 2 affiliated https://rpchanover.org/churches-within-the-hanover-presbytery/

Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States – deceased, had 3 congregations at the end

Reformed Presbyterian Church, General Assembly – 12 Congregations http://www.rpcga.org/churches/

Vanguard Presbytery - 18 Congregations https://vanguardpresbytery.com/affiliations/

Westminster Presbyterian Church in the United States – 1 Congregation per an old PB thread, weblink to the denomination seeks to download something to your computer; has a Facebook page. Debate at the time was whether it was cult-like or merely schismatic.

Note1 In passing I saw that some congregations may be claimed by more than one of the micros above.

Note 2 Links do not indicate endorsement. Indeed, as long time PBers know, I have a fairly low opinion of Micros.

Note 3 No easily located website, no mention here.
 
Micro "denominations" in the US, more or less alphabetical order, with notes and links:

American Presbyterian Church - 2 Congregations http://www.americanpresbyterianchurch.org/apc/apc-chuches/

Covenant Presbyterian Church - 13 Congregations https://covenant-presbyterian.org/churches

Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church – 2 US Congregations; one in Suriname https://www.covref.org/pages/church-directory.htm

Free Presbyterian Church - 12 Congregations in the US; additional 10 in Canada and Mexico https://fpcna.org/directory/

Presbyterian Reformed Church – 7 Congregations https://presbyterianreformed.org/#

Reformed Presbyterian Church - Hanover Presbytery – 15 member congregations, plus 2 affiliated https://rpchanover.org/churches-within-the-hanover-presbytery/

Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States – deceased, had 3 congregations at the end

Reformed Presbyterian Church, General Assembly – 12 Congregations http://www.rpcga.org/churches/

Vanguard Presbytery - 18 Congregations https://vanguardpresbytery.com/affiliations/

Westminster Presbyterian Church in the United States – 1 Congregation per an old PB thread, weblink to the denomination seeks to download something to your computer; has a Facebook page. Debate at the time was whether it was cult-like or merely schismatic.

Note1 In passing I saw that some congregations may be claimed by more than one of the micros above.

Note 2 Links do not indicate endorsement. Indeed, as long time PBers know, I have a fairly low opinion of Micros.

Note 3 No easily located website, no mention here.

The quotation marks are unnecessary and childish. Some of said denominations are in NAPARC. I wonder if you’d have told John Murray he was perpetuating the problem of micro-presbyterianism and sectarianism.
 
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