Sunday School
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Hi Colleen,
I hope you don't mind that I split the thread and placed your post iover here. I thought this might be a good discussion; maybe not! We'll see huh?
You previously said:
Please tell me whats on your mind with this statement? Sunday School to me is when the congregation gathers together and the eldership or one of the educated members teach the body. It is not worship time, but education.
[Edited on 1-20-2005 by Scott Bushey]
I hope you don't mind that I split the thread and placed your post iover here. I thought this might be a good discussion; maybe not! We'll see huh?
You previously said:
Please tell me whats on your mind with this statement? Sunday School to me is when the congregation gathers together and the eldership or one of the educated members teach the body. It is not worship time, but education.
[Edited on 1-20-2005 by Scott Bushey]
JonathanHunt
Puritan Board Senior
Sunday School by your definition, Scott, is an 'american thing'. Over here it means teaching children. Teaching adults is done through the pulpit ministry, generally speaking - typically an adult would hear three sermons a week, and the most 'sunday school american style' like one would be the 'Bible Study' on a weeknight. We've recently had a series on what kind of church we ought to be, week by week looking at 'loving', 'sacrificial', 'worshipping', 'learning', etc.
Sunday School here is at 3pm, and is primarily an evangelistic meeting, attended by the children of members but aimed and publicised to non-churchgoing children. And its very, very hard work!
I'm interested in the views of those who think it is wrong to teach age-segregated groups. I would add that our Sunday School for children is not 'instead of' corporate worship and preaching, but in addition to.
JH
Sunday School here is at 3pm, and is primarily an evangelistic meeting, attended by the children of members but aimed and publicised to non-churchgoing children. And its very, very hard work!
I'm interested in the views of those who think it is wrong to teach age-segregated groups. I would add that our Sunday School for children is not 'instead of' corporate worship and preaching, but in addition to.
JH
Irishcat922
Puritan Board Sophomore
I would prefer a Sunday evening service to a sunday school. I also like the Idea of a catechism class, which you rarely find, where memorization is strongly encouraged.
JonathanHunt
Puritan Board Senior
As I understand it, the Sunday Evening Service is not that common a concept in the USA. Here, it is unusual if any 'half-decent' church does not have one.
JH
JH
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Irishcat922
Puritan Board Sophomore
It's pretty obvious where we cut our teeth on reformed teaching isn't it Andrew?
[Edited on 20-1-2005 by Irishcat922]
[Edited on 20-1-2005 by Irishcat922]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Originally posted by Irishcat922
It's pretty obvious where we cut our teeth on reformed teaching isn't it Andrew?
[Edited on 20-1-2005 by Irishcat922]
Nods head vigorously.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
It does come from the pulpit during the scripture reading(also), however, school or classes are not the same thing. There is nothing wrong with having classes to additionally educate Gods people. There is nothing wrong with studies. God has called us to that. There are many facets to Gods word. Mnay doctrines. It is efficient, not a disadvantage to to have classes. Is it not better for the man of God to sit under teachers of Gods word as much as they can?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
We have been blessed as every church I have attended has SS, morning and evening services.
I think Sunday School Classes if done right can allow people to interact with the Bible's teaching in a different way then they get from the pulpit in the morning and/or evening service. The more opportunites we give people to learn and especially ask questions about what they are learning the better. Plus, I find the kids at our church (and my own daugher) really enjoy their Sunday School classes and the teaching material from GCP is usually very good.
It also gives Elders, men under care and Elders-to-be opportunities to serve Christ by using their gifts and the ability to test their calling in the Church.
It also gives Elders, men under care and Elders-to-be opportunities to serve Christ by using their gifts and the ability to test their calling in the Church.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
I nearly laughed when I saw this thread and my name by it...and I figured w/o even looking that I could credit Scott with this! 
And yes, it can make for an excellent discussion as I am going to take the direct opposite stand of you Scott...
To start with I will explain how it is in our church just to give you a feel for where I am coming from...We have worship, then some of the children leave for "children's church" (I say some because a goodly portion of us are against sending our children to it and have decided it to be the better thing to keep our children right down to the infant with us...this is in another thread though), and then we meet that nite or throughout the week in our small groups. NO SUNDAY SCHOOL. However I WAS raised with SS.
I would like to reccomend the CD/tape The Role of Children in the Meeting of the Church put out by Vision Forum http://www.visionforum.com/booksand...oryid=1&browseby=product&producttype=2&page=4
It will give the history of SS. A concept started by the Methodists with good intent to educate children who were unable to receive an education. The age segregation is due to an evolutionary viewpoint of developement. We have a variation of ppl within the church. Many times (not all) the teachers are chosen not by evidence of themselves but by who is willing to fill the role. I do not wish to send my children into a classroom setting where I am not to possibly be taught various things about daily living that might might conflict with what I have taught them about scriptural application to their daily living. I believe this would be irresponsible on my part, at least until they are older and able to stand on their own. (example of this would be a teacher contradicting the reason given for the headcovering...I'm not there to dispute this, and my daughter is young enough to not understand the contradiction but old enough to feel the peer pressure against her being different) In a corporate setting, I can explain things to her even in the middle of a difference of opinion. She won't be faced with the pressure that she is too young to understand (6yrs). Also, too much play goes on in some churches or too much coloring and not enough teaching. Children shouldn't be taught down to...and yet this is what is happening more and more. In many cases I was hearing what they did...but less of what they actually learned. (however I did not find this to be the case in Awana or KidsQuest as the focus is more intent and they are actually challenging the children) I believe the children can learn just fine in an adult setting. The only instance I know of for having a SS would be if you ran a bus ministry and were picking up children without their parents (and even then why not just include them in corporate worship as many of these children come because they are bribed by the ministry and their parents just want them gone for the day...they are never considered part of the church).
And yes, it can make for an excellent discussion as I am going to take the direct opposite stand of you Scott...To start with I will explain how it is in our church just to give you a feel for where I am coming from...We have worship, then some of the children leave for "children's church" (I say some because a goodly portion of us are against sending our children to it and have decided it to be the better thing to keep our children right down to the infant with us...this is in another thread though), and then we meet that nite or throughout the week in our small groups. NO SUNDAY SCHOOL. However I WAS raised with SS.
I would like to reccomend the CD/tape The Role of Children in the Meeting of the Church put out by Vision Forum http://www.visionforum.com/booksand...oryid=1&browseby=product&producttype=2&page=4
It will give the history of SS. A concept started by the Methodists with good intent to educate children who were unable to receive an education. The age segregation is due to an evolutionary viewpoint of developement. We have a variation of ppl within the church. Many times (not all) the teachers are chosen not by evidence of themselves but by who is willing to fill the role. I do not wish to send my children into a classroom setting where I am not to possibly be taught various things about daily living that might might conflict with what I have taught them about scriptural application to their daily living. I believe this would be irresponsible on my part, at least until they are older and able to stand on their own. (example of this would be a teacher contradicting the reason given for the headcovering...I'm not there to dispute this, and my daughter is young enough to not understand the contradiction but old enough to feel the peer pressure against her being different) In a corporate setting, I can explain things to her even in the middle of a difference of opinion. She won't be faced with the pressure that she is too young to understand (6yrs). Also, too much play goes on in some churches or too much coloring and not enough teaching. Children shouldn't be taught down to...and yet this is what is happening more and more. In many cases I was hearing what they did...but less of what they actually learned. (however I did not find this to be the case in Awana or KidsQuest as the focus is more intent and they are actually challenging the children) I believe the children can learn just fine in an adult setting. The only instance I know of for having a SS would be if you ran a bus ministry and were picking up children without their parents (and even then why not just include them in corporate worship as many of these children come because they are bribed by the ministry and their parents just want them gone for the day...they are never considered part of the church).
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Colleen,
I am not for shipping the children out to pasture either. Let me clearify. SS= family education prior to formal worship sevices each Lords day morning.
I am not for shipping the children out to pasture either. Let me clearify. SS= family education prior to formal worship sevices each Lords day morning.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Scott...so are you speaking of a morning family devotion period or SS. I thought we were discussing the idea of "Sunday School" as we know it to be today in the typical church. Not an obscure change of definition of. Please define what YOU mean by Sunday School...where the children go, when it happens, who teaches them, etc. Can't have a discussion if we are starting from the same view of the ground.
JonathanHunt
Puritan Board Senior
Well how novel.
That idea is precisely what Sunday School, in the historical context,was all about. Teaching unchurched children, reaching them with the gospel. At my old church, there were two Sunday Schools, morning (for the younger children under 10 - they went out during the sermon) and afternoon, and the church children went to both, but the afternoon hundreds of outsiders came (still do) to hear the gospel.
They aren't bribed by anything - there's no crafts, games, colouring, it's all worship and teaching.
I can grasp how you might be able to discipline your own children to sit through a full adult service. I cannot grasp how you could do the same with these hundreds of children! They have to have their own time.
http://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/Pages/SUNDAY SCHOOL.html
I believe that churches which do not reach out and seek to evangelise the children and young people of their areas, as well as the adults, are falling short of the great commission.
JH
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Jonathan said:
That idea is precisely what Sunday School, in the historical context,was all about. Teaching unchurched children, reaching them with the gospel. At my old church, there were two Sunday Schools, morning (for the younger children under 10 - they went out during the sermon) and afternoon, and the church children went to both, but the afternoon hundreds of outsiders came (still do) to hear the gospel.
Yes, this is true...but in many of these cases there is no follow up discipleship, there are no families willing to actually take these children under their wings and give them counsel as they get older, the focus is just on "doing their so-called Christian duty" and get the children to say those magic little words "Jesus, please come into my heart", there is no relationship developed between those families of the church and these children bussed to the church (I am speaking in the majority of cases here...not just one person's ideal church...but the issues at large).
Jonathan said:
They aren't bribed by anything - there's no crafts, games, colouring, it's all worship and teaching.
I say "how unusual" for this kind of ministry. Most of these minitries there are awards (toys, candies) given for each sibling or friend you bring, for everytime you bring your bible, you get a free bible if you come so many weeks in a row, candies for answering questions, once a year circus performances in the parking lots with booths to play. Anything to get them to just say those magic words.
Jonathan said:
I can grasp how you might be able to discipline your own children to sit through a full adult service. I cannot grasp how you could do the same with these hundreds of children! They have to have their own time.
This is where the families are supossed to be developing relationships. Actually caring about these children AND their families. Maybe instead of segregating them off to one side of the sanctuary have them dispersed amoung the seating of the congregation. They will more naturally be better behaved as they will be surrounded by families rather than their own peers...also more likely to be able to be quietly corrected.
Jonathan said:
I believe that churches which do not reach out and seek to evangelise the children and young people of their areas, as well as the adults, are falling short of the great commission.
I agree. Sadly, for the bus kid, it becomes both a blessing and a curse. Take it from someone who once was one.
That idea is precisely what Sunday School, in the historical context,was all about. Teaching unchurched children, reaching them with the gospel. At my old church, there were two Sunday Schools, morning (for the younger children under 10 - they went out during the sermon) and afternoon, and the church children went to both, but the afternoon hundreds of outsiders came (still do) to hear the gospel.
Yes, this is true...but in many of these cases there is no follow up discipleship, there are no families willing to actually take these children under their wings and give them counsel as they get older, the focus is just on "doing their so-called Christian duty" and get the children to say those magic little words "Jesus, please come into my heart", there is no relationship developed between those families of the church and these children bussed to the church (I am speaking in the majority of cases here...not just one person's ideal church...but the issues at large).
Jonathan said:
They aren't bribed by anything - there's no crafts, games, colouring, it's all worship and teaching.
I say "how unusual" for this kind of ministry. Most of these minitries there are awards (toys, candies) given for each sibling or friend you bring, for everytime you bring your bible, you get a free bible if you come so many weeks in a row, candies for answering questions, once a year circus performances in the parking lots with booths to play. Anything to get them to just say those magic words.
Jonathan said:
I can grasp how you might be able to discipline your own children to sit through a full adult service. I cannot grasp how you could do the same with these hundreds of children! They have to have their own time.
This is where the families are supossed to be developing relationships. Actually caring about these children AND their families. Maybe instead of segregating them off to one side of the sanctuary have them dispersed amoung the seating of the congregation. They will more naturally be better behaved as they will be surrounded by families rather than their own peers...also more likely to be able to be quietly corrected.
Jonathan said:
I believe that churches which do not reach out and seek to evangelise the children and young people of their areas, as well as the adults, are falling short of the great commission.
I agree. Sadly, for the bus kid, it becomes both a blessing and a curse. Take it from someone who once was one.
A couple more random thoughts on Sunday School:
- I see nothing in the Scriptures that forbids the elders from establishing a Sunday School program if they feel it is for the betterment of the church.
- I think people need to be careful to avoid the kind of "œcovenantal" approach that in order to emphasize the importance of family ends up minimizing the authority and role of the church as a corporate body. Our connections in the body of the church are what will survice life here on earth, not our familes as such.
- If the Elders, whom the Lord has given to govern the church establish programs such as Sunday School all members should participate. By doing so you will be a blessing to those who God has put in leadership (as scripture exhorts us to be) and it will provide a concrete example to your children of how Christians relate to those in authority.
- Q. If you pull your kids out, refuse to participate and complain about the leadership, then what does that teach your family? A. That you know better then God, because he tells you to obey those in authority unless they command you to do something the scriptures forbid or, especially in the church.
Plus, to separate and not participate strikes a blow against the whole idea of corporate/covenant community that many in that movement spend so much time talking about. Many times the "œcovenantal" approach only ends up being good so far as it agrees with my agenda or with the other like minded people who agree with our approach, which ironically of course ends up being not very "covenantal" at all. It ends up being an approach based more on the idea of the "œrugged American individualist" (or family) which has nothing at all to do with true Biblical piety.
[Edited on 20-1-2005 by AdamM]
- I see nothing in the Scriptures that forbids the elders from establishing a Sunday School program if they feel it is for the betterment of the church.
- I think people need to be careful to avoid the kind of "œcovenantal" approach that in order to emphasize the importance of family ends up minimizing the authority and role of the church as a corporate body. Our connections in the body of the church are what will survice life here on earth, not our familes as such.
- If the Elders, whom the Lord has given to govern the church establish programs such as Sunday School all members should participate. By doing so you will be a blessing to those who God has put in leadership (as scripture exhorts us to be) and it will provide a concrete example to your children of how Christians relate to those in authority.
- Q. If you pull your kids out, refuse to participate and complain about the leadership, then what does that teach your family? A. That you know better then God, because he tells you to obey those in authority unless they command you to do something the scriptures forbid or, especially in the church.
Plus, to separate and not participate strikes a blow against the whole idea of corporate/covenant community that many in that movement spend so much time talking about. Many times the "œcovenantal" approach only ends up being good so far as it agrees with my agenda or with the other like minded people who agree with our approach, which ironically of course ends up being not very "covenantal" at all. It ends up being an approach based more on the idea of the "œrugged American individualist" (or family) which has nothing at all to do with true Biblical piety.
[Edited on 20-1-2005 by AdamM]
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Actually Adam...the SS or children's church is OPTIONAL...ALWAYS HAS BEEN
And I take our role as parents to be primary (before our role to the church)
Also you must consider that there are times when a church is moving TOWARDS a more family style, that they might keep the other classes hoping that those families will ask questions and be influenced by the families that are following the intent of the leadership until eventually such classes become null and void.
Therefore there is a likemindedness to move back towards fathers leading their families rather than depending on "the church" to train your children in the manner that YOU are supposed to be training them in.
[Edited on 21-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
And I take our role as parents to be primary (before our role to the church)
Also you must consider that there are times when a church is moving TOWARDS a more family style, that they might keep the other classes hoping that those families will ask questions and be influenced by the families that are following the intent of the leadership until eventually such classes become null and void.
Therefore there is a likemindedness to move back towards fathers leading their families rather than depending on "the church" to train your children in the manner that YOU are supposed to be training them in.
[Edited on 21-1-2005 by LadyFlynt]
As I said in my first post, I think the Elders are free to deal with the issue of Sunday School however they see fit in their local body, but once that decision has been made, membership should do everything they can in terms of participation to support their leaders. This helps prevent an us verses them or sect mentality from developing.
Again, in general (of course I cannot address your specific situation) I find the dogmatic "œhome as church", "œfamily integrated" movement to be misguided. God has appointed Elders in the church and given those men the responsibility to build a functioning Biblical community in the local church. When groups within the congregation remove themselves and their children from participation in key ministries, it tears away at the covenantal bonds that we should be seeking to strengthen. In conservative circles we have been so saturated by the Focus on the Family/Ezzo mindset that people forget that the Church does not exist to serve our families. Believing in Christ actually may destroy your family here on earth.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Not sure what you mean by this as the Ezzos and Dobson are not neccessarily together on things. And how do you see it destroying the family...I see segregation as destructive, especially given its evolutionary base and mindset.
Also, are you saying the the children should listen to the elders above the parents? Because to insist that the parents blindly follow man rather than their convictions is wrong. As I told a mennonite woman one time...when it comes between church unity and the scriptures, I will always side with the scriptures.
JonathanHunt
Puritan Board Senior
LF Said:
Yes, this is true...but in many of these cases there is no follow up discipleship, there are no families willing to actually take these children under their wings and give them counsel as they get older, the focus is just on "doing their so-called Christian duty" and get the children to say those magic little words "Jesus, please come into my heart", there is no relationship developed between those families of the church and these children bussed to the church (I am speaking in the majority of cases here...not just one person's ideal church...but the issues at large).
My reply:
This sounds like an arminian approach to me! A church with an evangelistic sunday school has to take a holistic approach. My previous church did just that, and as children got older, the provision continued. It went like this: Age 3 - come to Sunday School. Age 7- add to Sunday School a weeknight activity as well. Age 11 move from Sunday School to Bible Classes Age 12 (ish) be invited to tea with members and attend the evening evangelistic service at the church, age 14/15 (ish) move from Bible Class to Doctrine Class, age 16+ either they had gone their own way, or were integrating into the life of the church, attending services, helping with the Sunday School themselves (if saved) etc.
LF Said:
I say "how unusual" for this kind of ministry. Most of these minitries there are awards, you get a free bible if you come so many weeks in a row, candies for answering questions, once a year circus performances in the parking lots with booths to play. Anything to get them to just say those magic words.
My reply:
As I said, that's arminian thinking, isn't it? 'Say the words'. Its nonsense. By your standards I am a terrible bribegiver though. I don't see it the way you see it. We don't go over the top. Each week, we do have a quiz based on the previous week, with a few (I mean a few!) sweets for good answers. Every child who comes for six weeks gets their own Bible. Now what, what, what on earth is wrong with putting the scriptures into the hands of the young? It's not about getting them to say some words, but getting them to keep coming, and keep searching the scriptures with us. We have an annual outing in the summer, and a winter treat in the winter. Again, not over the top, but providing the opportunity for informal fellowship and contact with the children, and witness to their parents.
LF Said:
This is where the families are supossed to be developing relationships. Actually caring about these children AND their families. Maybe instead of segregating them off to one side of the sanctuary have them dispersed amoung the seating of the congregation. They will more naturally be better behaved as they will be surrounded by families rather than their own peers...also more likely to be able to be quietly corrected.
I reply:
Hundreds of them? You'd need a lot of families! And who would the 'outsider' children have to explain the sermon to them in the evening?
LF said:
Sadly, for the bus kid, it becomes both a blessing and a curse. Take it from someone who once was one.
I reply:
It doesn't have to be that way. I know Presbyterians who do it, and do it well... see here:
http://www.hnrc.org/gr/Ministries/SundaySchool/sundayschool.html
JH
Yes, this is true...but in many of these cases there is no follow up discipleship, there are no families willing to actually take these children under their wings and give them counsel as they get older, the focus is just on "doing their so-called Christian duty" and get the children to say those magic little words "Jesus, please come into my heart", there is no relationship developed between those families of the church and these children bussed to the church (I am speaking in the majority of cases here...not just one person's ideal church...but the issues at large).
My reply:
This sounds like an arminian approach to me! A church with an evangelistic sunday school has to take a holistic approach. My previous church did just that, and as children got older, the provision continued. It went like this: Age 3 - come to Sunday School. Age 7- add to Sunday School a weeknight activity as well. Age 11 move from Sunday School to Bible Classes Age 12 (ish) be invited to tea with members and attend the evening evangelistic service at the church, age 14/15 (ish) move from Bible Class to Doctrine Class, age 16+ either they had gone their own way, or were integrating into the life of the church, attending services, helping with the Sunday School themselves (if saved) etc.
LF Said:
I say "how unusual" for this kind of ministry. Most of these minitries there are awards, you get a free bible if you come so many weeks in a row, candies for answering questions, once a year circus performances in the parking lots with booths to play. Anything to get them to just say those magic words.
My reply:
As I said, that's arminian thinking, isn't it? 'Say the words'. Its nonsense. By your standards I am a terrible bribegiver though. I don't see it the way you see it. We don't go over the top. Each week, we do have a quiz based on the previous week, with a few (I mean a few!) sweets for good answers. Every child who comes for six weeks gets their own Bible. Now what, what, what on earth is wrong with putting the scriptures into the hands of the young? It's not about getting them to say some words, but getting them to keep coming, and keep searching the scriptures with us. We have an annual outing in the summer, and a winter treat in the winter. Again, not over the top, but providing the opportunity for informal fellowship and contact with the children, and witness to their parents.
LF Said:
This is where the families are supossed to be developing relationships. Actually caring about these children AND their families. Maybe instead of segregating them off to one side of the sanctuary have them dispersed amoung the seating of the congregation. They will more naturally be better behaved as they will be surrounded by families rather than their own peers...also more likely to be able to be quietly corrected.
I reply:
Hundreds of them? You'd need a lot of families! And who would the 'outsider' children have to explain the sermon to them in the evening?
LF said:
Sadly, for the bus kid, it becomes both a blessing and a curse. Take it from someone who once was one.
I reply:
It doesn't have to be that way. I know Presbyterians who do it, and do it well... see here:
http://www.hnrc.org/gr/Ministries/SundaySchool/sundayschool.html
JH
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Thank you, I will take a look.
You are correct...my experience has been in the arminian churchs or the "slightly calvinistic" ones. It's a sad thing.
However I have never seen a Reformed Church even attempt a bus ministry. And funny, because I'm in the StL area and you would think that if a Reformed church was going to do it, they would do it in a place like StL.
So, I will be looking into it.
You are correct...my experience has been in the arminian churchs or the "slightly calvinistic" ones. It's a sad thing.
However I have never seen a Reformed Church even attempt a bus ministry. And funny, because I'm in the StL area and you would think that if a Reformed church was going to do it, they would do it in a place like StL.
So, I will be looking into it.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Jonathan,
I see this (your link) as being different from the typical sunday school and bus ministry of today, which we were discussing, and more like the original intent and workings of sunday school. You are not bringing these children in during regular worship hours for them to be avoided by half the congregation. Also this is truely more of an Outreach...than just a segregated church.
But alas...not the actual that I am trying to point out the errors in.
I see this (your link) as being different from the typical sunday school and bus ministry of today, which we were discussing, and more like the original intent and workings of sunday school. You are not bringing these children in during regular worship hours for them to be avoided by half the congregation. Also this is truely more of an Outreach...than just a segregated church.
But alas...not the actual that I am trying to point out the errors in.
- Status
