InSlaveryToChrist
Puritan Board Junior
But isn't that why we have the alternative term, "Doctrines of Grace?"
Taking a 4 day drive accross America with an Arminian
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But isn't that why we have the alternative term, "Doctrines of Grace?"
NB3K
Puritan Board Sophomore
Yes.
But I just call it the Gospel, because it starts off at showing us by the Law that we are condemned, and it points----> to Christ and His crucifiction. What God has done for us because we were not able to do it by works. That God loved us so much that He left His throne to fulfill what He had required of us. Like when all Paul wanted to know was Christ and Him Crucified was all one needs to know. Knowing Christ and Him crucified is having eternal life. That knowledge comes by faith, and that faith is spoken in to us by the Holy Spirit and this all springs from the Fountain of Election which is all of GRACE!
JM
Puritan Board Doctor
Is that a general statement without real honesty? I think so.
The church is infected with the spirit of ecumenicalism and a minimalist Gospel.
Jason, I appreciate your zeal, but here is the question that I must ask you: do your aunt and uncle trust in Christ for their salvation? If you asked them "do you trust in Christ alone for your salvation" what do you think they would say? I feel as if you have gotten so hung up on sola gratia and sola fide that you have forgotten the central sola: solus Christus. As I said, I appreciate your zeal, but don't presume to judge the hearts of those who claim the name of Christ. If your aunt and uncle say that Christ and Christ alone is their savior, then take them at their word. We are saved by faith in Christ alone, not by an affirmation of the doctrine of sola fide. I've debated this issue with plenty of Arminians, and have rarely found reason to doubt their salvation, even when they were unconvinced by my Scriptural argument.
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So the doctrine of predestination is one that a Christian must not reject? I don't recall it being included in the Nicene Creed. I guess I need to go and tell my Wesleyan brothers that they need to repent.
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So the doctrine of predestination is one that a Christian must not reject? I don't recall it being included in the Nicene Creed. I guess I need to go and tell my Wesleyan brothers that they need to repent.
JM
Puritan Board Doctor
It has been my experience that many Arminians believe Christ is powerless to save without their say so. Is this Christ, the Christ of Arminianism the Christ of scripture? I'm not saying Arminians are not "saved" but they do have major theological issues and Jason should be a witness to the truth.
NB3K
Puritan Board Sophomore
Rom_16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
1Ti_1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
1Ti_6:3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
Tit_1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Tit_2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
What does the Scriptures say about Doctrine?
1Ti_1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
1Ti_6:3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
Tit_1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Tit_2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.
What does the Scriptures say about Doctrine?
Reformed Roman
Puritan Board Freshman
They have theological issues but this is one of the major problems within churches. Many in Reformed churches feel they are superior to all Arminians. We have such a superior view of the Bible and scriptures. I believe our beliefs are more on then theirs, yes. But there is so much we can learn from Arminians. If someone is saved, we can learn much from them, Arminian or not.
We shouldn't be teaching Arminians the doctrines of grace, if we aren't willing to listen and grow from what they have to say too. Arminians aren't just stuck in the lowest part of Christianity and staying there. Many Arminians are "Calvanistic" in many of their beliefs. An example would be prayer. Many believe that God doesn't have to answer your prayers, but He can. Many arminians realize our prayers matter and God's commanded us to pray. Sometimes since we are reformed we sit on the belief of God's sovereignty and forget about our prayer lives.
My main point is there is a ton you can learn from an Arminian, and if your whole point everytime you minister to an Arminian is to teach, and not be taught, your probably in the sin of pride. Because all Christians can edify you in some way, and they shouldn't be looked down upon. These are our brothers and sisters who accepted Christ. There is far too much pride within churches today just because of theological knowledge. Knowledge puffs up. I would take a Arminian who applies the scriptures to His life over a theological giant who has head knowledge but doesn't apply it, and I would take that Arminian any day of the week.
We shouldn't be teaching Arminians the doctrines of grace, if we aren't willing to listen and grow from what they have to say too. Arminians aren't just stuck in the lowest part of Christianity and staying there. Many Arminians are "Calvanistic" in many of their beliefs. An example would be prayer. Many believe that God doesn't have to answer your prayers, but He can. Many arminians realize our prayers matter and God's commanded us to pray. Sometimes since we are reformed we sit on the belief of God's sovereignty and forget about our prayer lives.
My main point is there is a ton you can learn from an Arminian, and if your whole point everytime you minister to an Arminian is to teach, and not be taught, your probably in the sin of pride. Because all Christians can edify you in some way, and they shouldn't be looked down upon. These are our brothers and sisters who accepted Christ. There is far too much pride within churches today just because of theological knowledge. Knowledge puffs up. I would take a Arminian who applies the scriptures to His life over a theological giant who has head knowledge but doesn't apply it, and I would take that Arminian any day of the week.
Joseph Scibbe
Puritan Board Junior
Nope, I honestly think that this thread is sad. You said that Arminians don't believe in grace. Your statement is simply a not true statement; mine was an opinion. What is so wrong with saying "I know we don't agree on everything but lets put our minor differences aside and focus on preaching the Gospel that Jesus died and rose for salvation"?
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No one is saying not to teach and believe sound doctrine. We are saying don't start a war over this issue.
JM
Puritan Board Doctor
Arminians explain away grace with their, "it was I who choose Him" statements.
Yes, opinion. We can learn about Christ dying and getting up from the grave in many books and in many religions. The Gospel is what that death accomplished on behalf of His people.
j
NB3K
Puritan Board Sophomore
If the Arminians believed in grace, there would be no such thing as Calvinists. Or the Synod of Dort. Remember the five points of so-called Calvinism was a refutation to the five points of the remonstrants.
And I do not take the Doctrine of Grace as such a small thing. Paul says,
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I cannot sit in a building and subject myself to leaders of a Church that do not know Grace. And I will not.
Right now in my church we are battling out this very issue. We are suppose to be a "Reformed" denomination, but for the sake of fellowship the hard truth's of Scripture has been compromised by men that have shown more fear to men then to God and we are the ones that are being called to repent because we are creating divisons within the Church.
I hate being told that I need to be more "open-minded" and my reply is always No! we need to be "Biblically minded".
Joseph Scibbe
Puritan Board Junior
Forget it. This thread is frustrating me and I don't want to end up saying something harsh so I am just going to drop the subject.
Reformed Roman
Puritan Board Freshman
Ariminians know grace. The gospel is a gospel of grace. And they DO know the gospel. If they didn't, they couldn't and wouldn't be saved. So they know grace. How deeply? That's another question. But they are Christians, and should be treated as such, and should be treated as a people who DO know God. And some of them know God in a far greater way then us in the Puritan Board (no matter how many points we know, how many confessions, or anything). They know God, division should be shunned and they should be brothers to us.
Open-mindedness has nothing to do with this. Charity toward individuals and not judging their walk has everything to do with it. Also, Jason, be sure that your motivation here isn't to be right. It's very easy for doctrinally-minded Christians like yourself (and myself, in all honesty) to get so caught-up in being right that we forget to be rightly related to our brother. The minute that you cease to be loving in your presentation of the truth, you have lost sight of that truth. The minute that you cease to extend charity toward your brother in your presentation of the doctrine of grace, you have shown that you really do not understand grace at all. Reformed believers ought to pay particular attention to the message to the Church at Ephesus in Revelation: a church where all their doctrine was nice and tight and theologically correct, but where their love had died.
It's very easy to let such discussions become matters of pride---being right.
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InSlaveryToChrist
Puritan Board Junior
So, you're saying Calvinism IS the Gospel? You might want to read this thread carefully through: http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/calvinism-gospel-65642/ I recommend you to read Matthew Winzer's comments -- he made some great points on the matter. But if you desire a quick answer: Calvinism IS NOT the Gospel.
If you're not eager to read the whole thread, here are the top 2 comments that settled the issue, in my opinion:
“It is probably best to say that Calvinism is presupposed rather than understood. E.g., "sins" presupposes total depravity; "our" presupposes absolute predestination, "died for" presupposes particular redemption; "rose again" presupposes effectual calling and perseverance. If one develops an understanding which undermines this theological framework he denies the basis of the gospel and thereby weakens his own faith. This is what our old divines meant by calling the doctrines of grace the gospel -- they are the theological framework of the gospel.” - Rev. Matthew Winzer
“Calvinism is not the Gospel. However, the Gospel is understood and expressed most clearly, most completely and most beautifully within the framework of Calvinism.” - Jack K.
yoyoceramic
Puritan Board Freshman
Brother,
How does a hand grenade labeled 'Romans 9' saying "I'm off to fight the arminians" to a bunch of tulips communicate a "humble and graceful" (your words #43) attitude towards our brothers in Christ? I only ask because this is what your current profile picture shows.
How does a hand grenade labeled 'Romans 9' saying "I'm off to fight the arminians" to a bunch of tulips communicate a "humble and graceful" (your words #43) attitude towards our brothers in Christ? I only ask because this is what your current profile picture shows.
NB3K
Puritan Board Sophomore
I never said "Calvinism" is the Gospel, I did say that Grace is the Gospel. Grace is Good News compared to the LAW.
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.
Well have you read Romans 9? Because Romans 9 refutes Arminianism totally.
BTW, How have I been humble and graceful? I gave up time with my wife and children to navigate my uncle across the country so his wife which is my aunt could have her husband home. In other words I humbled myself by giving up what I loved most for the sake of someone else (one needs to humble themselves to put others first) While I was serving them, I shared the Scriptures with them. (Which is a Grace) I kept back from teaching the most decisive doctrines and just kept with SALVATION IS OF THE LORD. After listening to them, I felt that they were not ready for the tougher meat to chew on. I did not insist my own way on them. BUT I DID NOT COMPROMISE MY FAITH FOR FELLOWSHIP EITHER!
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When the Protestant Reformation was kicking off in full swing, Rome burnt those professing Protestants. Read about what happened to the Huegonaunts. Read what happened to the puritans in England. in the 16/17th centuries Rome lit the night skies with the bodies of Protestans. Did Rome or the Protestants start the war? Just think if Martin Luther did what he was told to do, which was basically SHUT UP! There would have been many poor protestants spared such a horrible death (being burnt at a stake for their faith). And Rome would still have the Word of God tucked away from the common language of the people. Everyone here would most likely never know what the Scriptures say. (And it seems that it really doesn't matter what the Scriptures say anyhow. We still continue to be like sheep gone astray each to his or her own way.)
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Ecumenicalism should be Repent and Believe what the Scriptures Declare. People ought to read the parables that Jesus taught they hurt so bad to the flesh, but wow they are so rich meat to the soul.
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And why would an Arminian disagree with you on that point?
No need to shout. Fellowshiping with an erring brother does not compromise your faith in the least. Just because he is in error does not make him any less your brother in the faith.
Rome did. Rome left Luther---Luther was the catholic.
Jason, you're making ridiculous comparisons here. As I said, I appreciate your zeal, but you have, I think, failed in your message of grace. If you want to communicate grace, then you have to be gracious. And one may have the grace of God without understanding it fully---this is the case with most Arminians. Indeed, I'm not always sure that I understand grace fully.
Joseph Scibbe
Puritan Board Junior
Are you honestly comparing yourself to Martin Luther and your family to the Catholic Church?
NB3K
Puritan Board Sophomore
Ok so we fellowship with erring brothers by sweeping their error out of the way instead of rebuking them and building them up in the faith. Well in that case let's call the Romanist fellow brother';s in the faith also because they only err in points of doctrine too. My Bible tells me not to have anything to do with those that create divisons that are contrary to true doctrine. I proclaim doctrine that we are suppose to believe and I get rebuked for wanting to share it to erring brothers, but they are defended because they just don't know.....
How are you so sure that you have all your theological ducks in a row here? Is it possible that this brother, for all his theological ignorance, might have something to teach you? It's actually rather strange for me arguing this way, given that most of my friends would say that I argue too much---but my argument generally presupposes that the one it is targeted at is already saved, trusting in Christ, and therefore what I have in common with him (or her) is infinitely greater than our differences.
I'm reminded here of the famous falling-out between George Whitefield (Calvinist) and John Wesley (Arminian) which led to a split in their evangelistic movement. Whitefield was asked by someone close to him whether he expected to see Wesley in Heaven. Whitefield responded that he did not, in fact, expect to see Wesley in Heaven given that Wesley would be so much closer to the Throne of Grace that he (Whitefield) wouldn't be able to see him through the crowd.
If I only fellowshipped with those who agree with me on all points of doctrine, I wouldn't be able to fellowship with anyone.
That is a discussion for another time.
Southern Presbyterian
Puritan Board Doctor
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