The "creation" of sin?

[Stope]

I have elsewhere attempted to ask this question but my poor communication skills have made it so that I haven't been understood, I will try again here:

It has been said that if God has created everything and sin is a "thing" then God has created sin.

It has also been said that sin is not a "thing" but the absence of a thing (like a shadow)

But my question is this: From where/when did CONCEPT of sin arrive?

If God is un-created, along with his attributes that have existed from all eternity, we then know that sin was not there with him, so at some point sin had to be introduced, and i dont mean at the point that Adam or Satan sinned, but I mean at the point in time when sin was an option. For example, I have never gone to the moon, but once we first went to the moon there was immediately the ability (that wasnt there before), to actually choose going to the moon. So again, where did the option of sin come to being?

 

[KeithW]

It has also been said that sin is not a "thing" but the absence of a thing (like a shadow)

A better definition of sin in the context of your question is that sin is opposition towards God. So for example, can God sin? No, because He cannot be in opposition to Himself. What can be in opposition to God? Only those things external to God, meaning those things which He has created. The creation of the angels brought in the possibility that God's own creation could rebel against Him. The creation of man brought in the possibility that God's own creation could rebel against Him.

So for sin to take place in fact, God had to create something and give it the ability to oppose Him.

[I'm curious what others will think of this...]

 

[Dachaser]

Did God Ordain Satan/Adam to sin in the same sense that he didJudas, as Judas still done as he wanted, as they did?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I have elsewhere attempted to ask this question but my poor communication skills have made it so that I haven't been understood, I will try again here:

It has been said that if God has created everything and sin is a "thing" then God has created sin.

It has also been said that sin is not a "thing" but the absence of a thing (like a shadow)

But my question is this: From where/when did CONCEPT of sin arrive?

If God is un-created, along with his attributes that have existed from all eternity, we then know that sin was not there with him, so at some point sin had to be introduced, and i dont mean at the point that Adam or Satan sinned, but I mean at the point in time when sin was an option. For example, I have never gone to the moon, but once we first went to the moon there was immediately the ability (that wasnt there before), to actually choose going to the moon. So again, where did the option of sin come to being?

I would suggest you review the following thread in its entirety:

http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/89320-Theories-about-Adam-s-fall

 

[Stope]

It has also been said that sin is not a "thing" but the absence of a thing (like a shadow)

A better definition of sin in the context of your question is that sin is opposition towards God. So for example, can God sin? No, because He cannot be in opposition to Himself. What can be in opposition to God? Only those things external to God, meaning those things which He has created. The creation of the angels brought in the possibility that God's own creation could rebel against Him. The creation of man brought in the possibility that God's own creation could rebel against Him.

So for sin to take place in fact, God had to create something and give it the ability to oppose Him.

[I'm curious what others will think of this...]

Wow, thank you so much. I mean it when I say that this is a very very valuable feedback and extremely helpful so thank you so much!

 

[Stope]

I have elsewhere attempted to ask this question but my poor communication skills have made it so that I haven't been understood, I will try again here:

It has been said that if God has created everything and sin is a "thing" then God has created sin.

It has also been said that sin is not a "thing" but the absence of a thing (like a shadow)

But my question is this: From where/when did CONCEPT of sin arrive?

If God is un-created, along with his attributes that have existed from all eternity, we then know that sin was not there with him, so at some point sin had to be introduced, and i dont mean at the point that Adam or Satan sinned, but I mean at the point in time when sin was an option. For example, I have never gone to the moon, but once we first went to the moon there was immediately the ability (that wasnt there before), to actually choose going to the moon. So again, where did the option of sin come to being?

I would suggest you review the following thread in its entirety:

http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/89320-Theories-about-Adam-s-fall

Will do, thanks!!!!!

 

[KeithW]

The idea of sin I used is similar to one of the ways John Owen describes sin in Indwelling Sin.

My favorite example of sin in the Bible comes from Deuteronomy chapter 1. God tells Israel to go in and take the land -- they refuse and do not go in. God then tells them to not go in -- they refuse and go in.

 

[Dachaser]

Just remember that God never created sin/evil directly....
he permitted it, and ordained that he would have the Cross of Christ to address this issue!

 

[Peairtach]

God ordained sin for His glory and other lesser purposes. Just as the greatest Commandment which summarises them all is love for God which evinces itself in obedience in thought, word and deed, so sin is withdrawl of love from God evinced in various thoughts, words and actions.

For Man to be made without the possibility of sinning he would have had to be made without any choice in the matter of his love relationship to the Lord. Would that be possible or desirable? Would Man have been an inferior being? Would he be an "automaton"? Would he have a true and free relationship with His Father, Creator and Lord and his fellow men? What would Man be if it was inherently impossible for him to sin from the beginning?

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[PuritanCovenanter]

It has been said that if God has created everything and sin is a "thing" then God has created sin.

It has also been said that sin is not a "thing" but the absence of a thing (like a shadow)

I would find a problem with Sin as a thing. I can see where the communication would break down. There is no substance. It is an action, attitude, or denial of truth. I can see where philosophically you lost people. Maybe I may be seen to be out on a limb here to you but sin is not created.

 

[Taylor]

I would find a problem with Sin as a thing.

I agree. My first thought when I read the OP was that sin cannot be created, because it by definition springs from what is already good. To quote Calvin, "The depravity and malice both of man and of the devil, or the sins that arise therefrom, do not spring from nature, but rather from the corruption of nature" (Institutes, I.xiv.3).

 

[Dachaser]

God did not create sin/evil directly though, for he is light, correct?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

God did not create sin/evil directly though, for he is light, correct?

1Jn_1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

 

[Stope]

God did not create sin/evil directly though, for he is light, correct?

1Jn_1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

But, if God has within Himself the ability for "darkness"/Sin do we have issues with that in connection with Jim being the "Cause" of evil? What I mean is, yes, I might be fully healthy, however I have teeth that when I was born were perfect, but after time and circumstance my teeth get old and ware down then even though they were perfect they STILL HAD THE CAPACITY TO TAINT then does it not follow that they never really were "perfect" to begin with?

 

[Peairtach]

God did not create sin/evil directly though, for he is light, correct?

1Jn_1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

But, if God has within Himself the ability for "darkness"/Sin do we have issues with that in connection with Jim being the "Cause" of evil? What I mean is, yes, I might be fully healthy, however I have teeth that when I was born were perfect, but after time and circumstance my teeth get old and ware down then even though they were perfect they STILL HAD THE CAPACITY TO TAINT then does it not follow that they never really were "perfect" to begin with?

God doesn't have the capacity for darkness/evil within himself. He ordained Adam's fall for good purposes including supremely His own glory. Adam was created good with the potential to freely withdraw his love from God. He would have been another ( maybe inferior?) creature if not.

Re your analogy: your teeth were good- but capable of corruption.

Something can be good, but not yet perfect or complete. Man was created good but for a more perfect or complete existence once he had become impeccable (incapable of sin).

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[Toasty]

God did not create sin/evil directly though, for he is light, correct?

1Jn_1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

But, if God has within Himself the ability for "darkness"/Sin do we have issues with that in connection with Jim being the "Cause" of evil? What I mean is, yes, I might be fully healthy, however I have teeth that when I was born were perfect, but after time and circumstance my teeth get old and ware down then even though they were perfect they STILL HAD THE CAPACITY TO TAINT then does it not follow that they never really were "perfect" to begin with?

God doesn't have the capacity for darkness/evil within himself. He ordained Adam's fall for good purposes including supremely His own glory. Adam was created good with the potential to freely withdraw his love from God. He would have been another ( maybe inferior?) creature if not.

Re your analogy: your teeth were good- but capable of corruption.

Something can be good, but not yet perfect or complete. Man was created good but for a more perfect or complete existence once he had become impeccable (incapable of sin).

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

I would like to add that when God ordained Adam's fall, He did not do evil. He didn't sin. God cannot do evil. God can ordain something to come pass without doing evil.

 

[Stope]

God did not create sin/evil directly though, for he is light, correct?

1Jn_1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

But, if God has within Himself the ability for "darkness"/Sin do we have issues with that in connection with Jim being the "Cause" of evil? What I mean is, yes, I might be fully healthy, however I have teeth that when I was born were perfect, but after time and circumstance my teeth get old and ware down then even though they were perfect they STILL HAD THE CAPACITY TO TAINT then does it not follow that they never really were "perfect" to begin with?

God doesn't have the capacity for darkness/evil within himself. He ordained Adam's fall for good purposes including supremely His own glory. Adam was created good with the potential to freely withdraw his love from God. He would have been another ( maybe inferior?) creature if not.

Re your analogy: your teeth were good- but capable of corruption.

Something can be good, but not yet perfect or complete. Man was created good but for a more perfect or complete existence once he had become impeccable (incapable of sin).

Thanks for the thoughtful response...

"God doesn't have the capacity for darkness/evil within himself. He ordained Adam's fall for good purposes including supremely His own glory"
----When you say "He ordained Adam's fall" he then had to ordain it by the AGENT of sin, but if sin did not exist then Adam would not have (could not have) sinned... In other words: If I leave out on my kitchen table an Apple, a Vitamin, and a Donut and my daughter takes the donut (she knows she is not to eat), then the very fact that I put it there was an option - and so in the same way if Adam had no chance, no OPTION, to select something other than 100% obedience (that is, there was no fount from whence to pull sin)then I could see how God is not responsible for sin, but by the very fact that God has allowed the fount of sin/the dount/the mere existence of sin and thus even makes it an option, and since all things came into being through him and NOTHING (including the option of sin?) ever came that wasnt, then how did it not become created/into existence or in some other way co-exist with him from eternity? If we say that the option of sin is not a created thing, then wouldn't we also be forced to say that before all creation in ages past, when it was only the Trinity in existence, that the option of sin was there present with them?

 

[Dachaser]

Due to the truth that Adam and Satan each had the free will at that time to choose to obey or not, but potential to choose badly was within both of them ...

 

[Dachaser]

God ordained/determined that udas would be the one to sin against Jesus, but Jesus also still "freely" choose to do that act...

 

[Peairtach]

God did not create sin/evil directly though, for he is light, correct?

1Jn_1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

But, if God has within Himself the ability for "darkness"/Sin do we have issues with that in connection with Jim being the "Cause" of evil? What I mean is, yes, I might be fully healthy, however I have teeth that when I was born were perfect, but after time and circumstance my teeth get old and ware down then even though they were perfect they STILL HAD THE CAPACITY TO TAINT then does it not follow that they never really were "perfect" to begin with?

God doesn't have the capacity for darkness/evil within himself. He ordained Adam's fall for good purposes including supremely His own glory. Adam was created good with the potential to freely withdraw his love from God. He would have been another ( maybe inferior?) creature if not.

Re your analogy: your teeth were good- but capable of corruption.

Something can be good, but not yet perfect or complete. Man was created good but for a more perfect or complete existence once he had become impeccable (incapable of sin).

Thanks for the thoughtful response...

"God doesn't have the capacity for darkness/evil within himself. He ordained Adam's fall for good purposes including supremely His own glory"
----When you say "He ordained Adam's fall" he then had to ordain it by the AGENT of sin, but if sin did not exist then Adam would not have (could not have) sinned... In other words: If I leave out on my kitchen table an Apple, a Vitamin, and a Donut and my daughter takes the donut (she knows she is not to eat), then the very fact that I put it there was an option - and so in the same way if Adam had no chance, no OPTION, to select something other than 100% obedience (that is, there was no fount from whence to pull sin)then I could see how God is not responsible for sin, but by the very fact that God has allowed the fount of sin/the dount/the mere existence of sin and thus even makes it an option, and since all things came into being through him and NOTHING (including the option of sin?) ever came that wasnt, then how did it not become created/into existence or in some other way co-exist with him from eternity? If we say that the option of sin is not a created thing, then wouldn't we also be forced to say that before all creation in ages past, when it was only the Trinity in existence, that the option of sin was there present with them?

Sin isn't a substance. It wasn't created. Sin is ethical and ethics/morals is relational and firstly about our relationship to God. Sin is an alienation from God, manifested in the heart, mind, speech and actions. God didn't create five pounds of sin or even a gram of sin. Man freely chose a wrong path in God's providence. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God can sovereignty ordain a man's free actions. In fact Man wouldn't be free unless God was sovereign. The most consistent atheists, including the Communists, believe that men's every move is determined like a puppet or chess piece.

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[Dachaser]

There was real free will for both satan and Adam to choose, but when they fell, lost that cap-acity, and we no longer have real free will now, correct?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

There was real free will for both satan and Adam to choose, but when they fell, lost that cap-acity, and we no longer have real free will now, correct?

Pre-fall Adam possessed the ability to sin or not to sin.
Post-fall Adam and all his un-regenerated progeny can only sin more or sin less. Any good acts by un-regenerate are but an abomination to God, for the motives for these acts are never to glorify God.

What is your definition of "free will"?

Mine: free will is the ability to choose according to one's greatest inclinations at the moment one so chooses.