"The Greater Sin": Are There Degrees of Sin?

[NaphtaliPress]

The thread is open; please stay on topic.
Moderators ruling.
On sinfulness of polygamy. This issue has been discussed before, and it is the moderators consensus that it is not to be questioned and is out of bounds for challenging on PB. WCF 24.1. "Marriage is to be between one man and one woman: neither is it lawful for any man to have more than one wife, nor for any woman to have more than one husband, at the same time." If you have an itch to discuss this do so somewhere else. Also, if any of you have real concerns about the burden of the confessional view, take it up with you denominations and seek a change. Untill then, please don't campaign here for it.

 

[rpavich]

If you have an itch to discuss this do so somewhere else. Also, if any of you have real concerns about the burden of the confessional view,

Q: Does "being confessional" mean that we hold to a confession (like the WCF) where a church that doesn't use one of the confessions would be "non-confessional"?

I'm just asking; this is all new to me.

 

[Peairtach]

If all sins were equally heinous would we be going around in a permanent state of shock?

 

[Pergamum]

We should probably already be in a state of shock even for our "small" sins if we truly sensed their enormity.

 

[Grillsy]

If all sins were equally heinous would we be going around in a permanent state of shock?

Great point.
The all "sin is sin" thing came into popularity fairly recently in modern American evangelism. This is was in part due the fact that many churches had shunned church discipline and where therefore resigned to tolerate even the most heinous of sins and brush them aside saying "all in sin is sin". "Besides you may be homosexual but I drive over the speed limit in God's eyes it is the same thing" That was an actual quote from a pastor's Bible lesson and it was directed to an open and unrepentant homosexual.

 

[Rogerant]

If all sins were equally heinous would we be going around in a permanent state of shock?

Great point.
The all "sin is sin" thing came into popularity fairly recently in modern American evangelism. This is was in part due the fact that many churches had shunned church discipline and where therefore resigned to tolerate even the most heinous of sins and brush them aside saying "all in sin is sin". "Besides you may be homosexual but I drive over the speed limit in God's eyes it is the same thing" That was an actual quote from an ex-pastor of mine (in the Wesleyan Holiness churches) to an open and unrepentant homosexual.

So then, we give a pass to unrepentant speeders and church gossipers? And who measures what is acceptable for church discipline. Yes there are some sins that are more damaging than others. Who decides on the tier system?

 

[Grillsy]

If all sins were equally heinous would we be going around in a permanent state of shock?

Great point.
The all "sin is sin" thing came into popularity fairly recently in modern American evangelism. This is was in part due the fact that many churches had shunned church discipline and where therefore resigned to tolerate even the most heinous of sins and brush them aside saying "all in sin is sin". "Besides you may be homosexual but I drive over the speed limit in God's eyes it is the same thing" That was an actual quote from an ex-pastor of mine (in the Wesleyan Holiness churches) to an open and unrepentant homosexual.

So then, we give a pass to unrepentant speeders and church gossipers? And who measures what is acceptable for church discipline. Yes there are some sins that are more damaging than others. Who decides on the tier system?

I'm sorry I don't remember saying that we give a pass to any type of sin? Where did I say that?

The point of what I was saying is that in modern American churches the "all sin is sin" routine is used to soften the guilt of sins rather than convict the sinner.

As far as the "tier system" as you put it. Church discipline is administered by the elders of the Church and it is their responsibility to judge wisely and righteously according the Scriptures. Also, if you want to see that certain sins are greater, read the Scriptures where it is made very clear that certain sins are more grievous. In fact one sin in particular comes to mind...

 

[John Weathersby]

If there are degrees of sin, are there are different degrees of punishment in hell and different degrees of glory in heaven? I think so, but have several who vigorously debate me on this.

I could never agree with the idea that there are varying degrees of rewards in heaven. If everyone who enters into the presence of our Lord is only there because of Christ's blood, how can any have claim to certain rewards over another? The whole idea of rewards in heaven (other than eternal life) seems contrary to the Gospel to me.

Why would you say you could "never" agree; if you cannot know all that is to be known and scripture does not directly contradict or speak against the topic wouldn’t you be saying you're unwilling to agree with scripture?
1 Cor 15:41/42, “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead”

Also, if our works cannot save us, why then would 2 Cor 5:10 state

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

if were saved by Christ’s Righteousness and our sin is as far as the East is from the West, why would we ALL receive what is due for what we’ve done? I believe these leave at least large enough question that we cannot say ‘not possible’ for varying degrees of reward in heaven.

 

[Skyler]

If there are degrees of sin, are there are different degrees of punishment in hell and different degrees of glory in heaven? I think so, but have several who vigorously debate me on this.

I could never agree with the idea that there are varying degrees of rewards in heaven. If everyone who enters into the presence of our Lord is only there because of Christ's blood, how can any have claim to certain rewards over another? The whole idea of rewards in heaven (other than eternal life) seems contrary to the Gospel to me.

Why would you say you could "never" agree; if you cannot know all that is to be known and scripture does not directly contradict or speak against the topic wouldn’t you be saying you're unwilling to agree with scripture?
1 Cor 15:41/42, “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead”

Also, if our works cannot save us, why then would 2 Cor 5:10 state

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

if were saved by Christ’s Righteousness and our sin is as far as the East is from the West, why would we ALL receive what is due for what we’ve done? I believe these leave at least large enough question that we cannot say ‘not possible’ for varying degrees of reward in heaven.

I hope you didn't mean what you just said.

We are saved by Christ's righteousness; that's the only way our works would mean anything. Our works can't save us, because we have to be saved before we can do any good works!

 

[John Weathersby]

I could never agree with the idea that there are varying degrees of rewards in heaven. If everyone who enters into the presence of our Lord is only there because of Christ's blood, how can any have claim to certain rewards over another? The whole idea of rewards in heaven (other than eternal life) seems contrary to the Gospel to me.

Why would you say you could "never" agree; if you cannot know all that is to be known and scripture does not directly contradict or speak against the topic wouldn’t you be saying you're unwilling to agree with scripture?
1 Cor 15:41/42, “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead”

Also, if our works cannot save us, why then would 2 Cor 5:10 state

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

if were saved by Christ’s Righteousness and our sin is as far as the East is from the West, why would we ALL receive what is due for what we’ve done? I believe these leave at least large enough question that we cannot say ‘not possible’ for varying degrees of reward in heaven.

I hope you didn't mean what you just said.

We are saved by Christ's righteousness; that's the only way our works would mean anything. Our works can't save us, because we have to be saved before we can do any good works!

Meant it. But read again, my whole point is that we CANNOT be saved by works, so why would the saved in 2 Cor 5:10 appear before the judgment seat? If we're righteous in Christ what’s to be judged? If our works are judged it CANNOT be for our salvation because we cannot add anything to our salvation. So, I am proposing that there could be varying degrees of reward and that we cannot, using scripture, close off to that idea. I never said works save.

 

[toddpedlar]

Why would you say you could "never" agree; if you cannot know all that is to be known and scripture does not directly contradict or speak against the topic wouldn’t you be saying you're unwilling to agree with scripture?
1 Cor 15:41/42, “There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead”

Also, if our works cannot save us, why then would 2 Cor 5:10 state if were saved by Christ’s Righteousness and our sin is as far as the East is from the West, why would we ALL receive what is due for what we’ve done? I believe these leave at least large enough question that we cannot say ‘not possible’ for varying degrees of reward in heaven.

I hope you didn't mean what you just said.

We are saved by Christ's righteousness; that's the only way our works would mean anything. Our works can't save us, because we have to be saved before we can do any good works!

Meant it. But read again, my whole point is that we CANNOT be saved by works, so why would the saved in 2 Cor 5:10 appear before the judgment seat? If we're righteous in Christ what’s to be judged? If our works are judged it CANNOT be for our salvation because we cannot add anything to our salvation. So, I am proposing that there could be varying degrees of reward and that we cannot, using scripture, close off to that idea. I never said works save.

Then maybe it would have been better for you to say:

Works cannot save us. Then why did Paul write 2 Cor 5:10? Because there are varying degrees...

That would have been much clearer. As your words stand, you seem to be arguing that works do save us.

 

[John Weathersby]

I hope you didn't mean what you just said.

We are saved by Christ's righteousness; that's the only way our works would mean anything. Our works can't save us, because we have to be saved before we can do any good works!

Meant it. But read again, my whole point is that we CANNOT be saved by works, so why would the saved in 2 Cor 5:10 appear before the judgment seat? If we're righteous in Christ what’s to be judged? If our works are judged it CANNOT be for our salvation because we cannot add anything to our salvation. So, I am proposing that there could be varying degrees of reward and that we cannot, using scripture, close off to that idea. I never said works save.

Then maybe it would have been better for you to say:

Works cannot save us. Then why did Paul write 2 Cor 5:10? Because there are varying degrees...

That would have been much clearer. As your words stand, you seem to be arguing that works do save us.

humm... I really don’t know how to make it more clear, I don’t mean to be unclear because as I said, I DO NOT believe works save. In fact scripture clearly asserts this fact (Eph 2:9). This is why I say that the judgment of ALL spoken of in 2 Cor 5:10.

The scripture states, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ

, I believe that ALL is universal. However, what I am asserting is that the elect are already saved; but the scripture states that "receive what is due for what he has done in the body" which isn’t salvation, if speaking of works, but rather varying degrees of reward within the salvation we've already been granted.

Better?

 

[toddpedlar]

Meant it.

Then maybe it would have been better for you to say:

Works cannot save us. Then why did Paul write 2 Cor 5:10? Because there are varying degrees...

That would have been much clearer. As your words stand, you seem to be arguing that works do save us.

humm... I really don’t know how to make it more clear, I don’t mean to be unclear because as I said, I DO NOT believe works save.

Yes, NOW you have said this. You were not, though, so clear in post #42, which is what I was referring to when I said you should not have implied that works can save.

In fact scripture clearly asserts this fact (Eph 2:9). This is why I say that the judgment of ALL spoken of in 2 Cor 5:10.

The scripture states, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ

, I believe that ALL is universal. However, what I am asserting is that the elect are already saved; but the scripture states that "receive what is due for what he has done in the body" which isn’t salvation, if speaking of works, but rather varying degrees of reward within the salvation we've already been granted.

Better?

Yes.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I thought this might bear some light on the subject so let me quote something from a book I am reading.

It is the Spirit alone who sanctifies, but as human beings are not sticks or stones their activity is elicited to the fullest extent. The key text is Philippians 2:11-13. Paul asssigns tasks so as not to indulge in the sluggishness of the flesh, but to correct sloth. "But enjoining fear and carefulness, he so humbles them that they remember what they are bidden to do is God's own work." To avoid any semblance of synergism, Calvin notes that "believers act passively, so to speak," by which he means capacitated from heaven so as to be able to claim no credit to themselves. As for the "reward" of good works, Calvin repeatedly cites Augustine's maxim: "God does not crown our merits but his own gifts" (2.5.5). Thus, "[God] rewards, as if they were our own virtues, those graces which he bestows upon us because he makes them ours" (2.5.2).

We do the things for which God receives praise because (1) "whatever God out of his loving-kindness does in us is ours" and (2)"ours is the mind, ours is the will, ours the striving, which he directs toward the good" (2.5.15). God's grace in regeneration works efficaciously: correcting, reforming, renewing, moving, acting, impelling, bearing, keeping the human will. The idea of human merit is thus radically excluded, though human beings are significantly engaged in participation in the renewal process.

A Theological Guide to Calvin's Institutes (essays and analysis)
p. 316 Chapter 13 The Law and the Spirit of Christ by David Clyde Jones

 

[Skyler]

Sorry John, I was in a hurry and read your post too fast. I get it now.

 

[Peairtach]

We should probably already be in a state of shock even for our "small" sins if we truly sensed their enormity.

We are, when God shows us their enormity. I'm glad I'm not always in a state of conviction of sin.

As we are sanctified we should become more sensitive to sin, even little sins -a permanent state of shock would not be profitable, and the Bible doesn't seem to make it a mark of God's grace.

 

[charliejunfan]

I would like to clarify concerning my post on page 1-

First of all I would like to say that I misunderstood the discussion taking place therefore my post was, I believe, off topic anyway. (sorry)

Here is what I posted-

"I believe in choosing that which causes the least amount of sin in any situation

Sometimes, because of our culture etc, we must choose one sin over another. We sometimes must choose the sin which is the least causative of more sin.

This is what I believe Rahab did for the spies."

Clarification---

What I am meaning to say is that there are "lesser of two Evils lifestyles", maybe SINS was a bad word.

For an example, should a person live without debt by not going to college but because of that decision not have a job that makes enough to support the church, the poor, and maybe their own family?
OR
Should a person live with debt so that they can go college and have a better job so that they can better support the church, the poor, and their own family?

This is a simple and most likely faulty example but I think you all will see what I am getting at, and of course the presuppositions behind such questions determine the questions themselves so those may be visible as well.

I know this was off topic, so no need to discuss
If any of you would like to correct me in thinking that debt is a sin or what have you then feel free to Private Message me, thank you

 

[John Weathersby]

Then maybe it would have been better for you to say:

Works cannot save us. Then why did Paul write 2 Cor 5:10? Because there are varying degrees...

That would have been much clearer. As your words stand, you seem to be arguing that works do save us.

humm... I really don’t know how to make it more clear, I don’t mean to be unclear because as I said, I DO NOT believe works save.

Yes, NOW you have said this. You were not, though, so clear in post #42, which is what I was referring to when I said you should not have implied that works can save.

In fact scripture clearly asserts this fact (Eph 2:9). This is why I say that the judgment of ALL spoken of in 2 Cor 5:10.

The scripture states, For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ

, I believe that ALL is universal. However, what I am asserting is that the elect are already saved; but the scripture states that "receive what is due for what he has done in the body" which isn’t salvation, if speaking of works, but rather varying degrees of reward within the salvation we've already been granted.

Better?

Yes.

Admittedly my brain is liquefied today, but... I've quoted below my post from 42

Meant it. But read again, my whole point is that we CANNOT be saved by works, so why would the saved in 2 Cor 5:10 appear before the judgment seat? If we're righteous in Christ what’s to be judged? If our works are judged it CANNOT be for our salvation because we cannot add anything to our salvation. So, I am proposing that there could be varying degrees of reward and that we cannot, using scripture, close off to that idea. I never said works save.

I do not see how you'd say that I am advocating works based salvation in that post.

-----Added 7/16/2009 at 08:54:00 EST-----

Sorry John, I was in a hurry and read your post too fast. I get it now.

Skyler, I was configuring a new server today that was configured static but I pulgged it into a DNS netorwk and coudent figure out why I couldent see ETH0. LOL so my brain was liquified all day.

But no worries, If I was advocating works based salvation I would expect to be rebuked and corrected~

Praise God that he elected us!

 

[Skyler]

Sorry John, I was in a hurry and read your post too fast. I get it now.

Skyler, I was configuring a new server today that was configured static but I pulgged it into a DNS netorwk and coudent figure out why I couldent see ETH0. LOL so my brain was liquified all day.

Oops!

It strikes me that I am probably one of the few who doesn't think that that excuse is unintelligible because of the liquification... lol.

Praise God that he elected us!

You're not saying he elected us to earn our salvation by works, right? Just checking.

 

[John Weathersby]

Sorry John, I was in a hurry and read your post too fast. I get it now.

Skyler, I was configuring a new server today that was configured static but I pulgged it into a DNS netorwk and coudent figure out why I couldent see ETH0. LOL so my brain was liquified all day.

Oops!

It strikes me that I am probably one of the few who doesn't think that that excuse is unintelligible because of the liquification... lol.

Praise God that he elected us!

You're not saying he elected us to earn our salvation by works, right? Just checking.

oh man, no I am not saying that. we can do nothing to add to our salvation. That is the premise of my position on the verse quoted.

 

[Pergamum]

We should probably already be in a state of shock even for our "small" sins if we truly sensed their enormity.

We are, when God shows us their enormity. I'm glad I'm not always in a state of conviction of sin.

As we are sanctified we should become more sensitive to sin, even little sins -a permanent state of shock would not be profitable, and the Bible doesn't seem to make it a mark of God's grace.

Yes, that's a good point. The devil certainly likes to remind us of our sinfulness in order to defeat us continually.

 

[toddpedlar]

Admittedly my brain is liquefied today, but... I've quoted below my post from 42

Meant it. But read again, my whole point is that we CANNOT be saved by works, so why would the saved in 2 Cor 5:10 appear before the judgment seat? If we're righteous in Christ what’s to be judged? If our works are judged it CANNOT be for our salvation because we cannot add anything to our salvation. So, I am proposing that there could be varying degrees of reward and that we cannot, using scripture, close off to that idea. I never said works save.

I do not see how you'd say that I am advocating works based salvation in that post.

I am sorry, I gave the wrong reference. Your post #42 was fine. I wasn't
referring to that.

My statement about your confusing language was in post #40, quoted here:

Also, if our works cannot save us, why then would 2 Cor 5:10 state

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

if were saved by Christ’s Righteousness and our sin is as far as the East is from the West, why would we ALL receive what is due for what we’ve done? I believe these leave at least large enough question that we cannot say ‘not possible’ for varying degrees of reward in heaven.

That statement is very odd. You say "if our works cannot save us"... I'm not sure what else I am to make of that, when you go on from that statement to quote 2 Cor 5:10, and then furthermore ask "If we're saved by Christ's righteousness, then why would we ALL receive what is due for what we've done?"

That's unclear at best. - and I truly believe you don't advocate works-righteousness - I was only trying to point out to you some very unclear language that you used that could lead to that conclusion. One could very well draw from whe portion quoted above that you believe that works play a role in our salvation (for, you seem to be asking, why otherwise would 2 Cor 5:10 say what it does?). I'm still not sure how to understand what you wrote in the quoted portion.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

A church that does not hold confessional views is unconfessional; regardless of whether they formally have a confession or not. Clear a mud? If you want to discuss this start a thread on confessionalism, maybe in the wading pool since this is new to you (folks are supposed to be kinder gentler in the wading pool).

If you have an itch to discuss this do so somewhere else. Also, if any of you have real concerns about the burden of the confessional view,

Q: Does "being confessional" mean that we hold to a confession (like the WCF) where a church that doesn't use one of the confessions would be "non-confessional"?

I'm just asking; this is all new to me.

 

[dudley]

All transgressions of the law of God are not equally heinous

I am an ex Roman catholic and now a Reformed Presbyterian Protestant. In Roman Catholicism their were mortal and venial sins and a person with a mortal sin could be condemned to hell. I now am a Presbyterian and adhere to the Westminster standards.

The Westminster Larger Catechism says:
Question 150: Are all transgressions of the law of God equally heinous in themselves, and in the sight of God?
Answer: All transgressions of the law of God are not equally heinous; but some sins in themselves, and by reason of several aggravations, are more heinous in the sight of God than others.

However as a Protestant and a Presbyterian now I believe Justification by faith alone and that is the essential difference between the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant church. R.C. Sproul explains this well: “The Roman Catholic view of justification [is that] God declares a person to be just when justice (or righteousness) inheres in the person. The person, under divine analysis or scrutiny, is found to be just. God justifies the just. …By stark and radical contrast the Reformation view of justification is that God declares a person just based upon something [external to them], something not inherent in the person: the imputed righteousness of Christ.”

I think of the good thief on the cross next to Christ and as a Calvinist Presbyterian I believe in the 5 points of Calvinism, that man is basically depraved and we are saved by the amazing grace of God when we are connected to Christ by faith and justification by that faith alone.

In grace,
Dudley