The man in Africa, and why he goes to hell?

[Matthew1344]

"You go to hell because you are a sinner. Not because you reject Jesus. The people in Africa that never hear of Jesus will go to hell because they are sinners. They don't reject Christ. They have never heard of him. They go because they are sinners."

My pastor said this to me this week and it has challenged me alot. I have thought about it ever since he said it. It has got me thinking over scripture trying to discern if this is true or not.

What do you think about this statement? Even though they do not know is name isn't that still a rejection of Jesus.

people that have never heard of Jesus cannot reject Jesus because they have never heard of him. How can they reject someone whom they have never heard. And we know they still go to hell. So why is that? It can't be because they rejected Jesus. It's because they were sinners."

Does not all sin find its way to the cross deny it? Are there really sinners in the world that do not deny Jesus?

this has been my thinking thus far:

1) If believing in the Messiah save you not believing must damn you. That is what is throwing me off. how can believing in the Messiah save you, and you be damned but not because you didn't believe in Jesus.

2) if blasphemy of the Spirit means to reject the Spirit's message of the Son then I think I can make a case that men in Africa reject Christ.

Jesus said the ONLY unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Every other sin is forgiven because it was put to death in Christ. So the only sin not on him is a life of unrepentance and unbelief in his name. If people are in hell, then they weren't forgiven. If they weren't forgiven, then they have to committed the unforgivable sin, namely blasphemy of the Spirits message of the son.

I understand I might have a wrong view of what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit means. I would love to be taught.

What are your thoughts? I am not trying to prove a point. I really do not know where I stand. Just trying to get clarification.

 

[Matthew1344]

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
Titus 3:3

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following mthe prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in nthe sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:1-3

These verses don't say anything about them rejecting Christ.

 

[Username3000]

What do you make of Romans 10:13 and following?

 

[Matthew1344]

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for
“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”
But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation;
with a foolish nation I will make you angry.”
Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”
But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Who is this "they"?

 

[Matthew1344]

I was typing that out just as you were saying that!

 

[Username3000]

Good timing!

Regarding where you said: "If people are in hell, then they weren't forgiven. If they weren't forgiven, then they have to committed the unforgivable sin, namely blasphemy of the Spirits message of the son. "

If people are in hell it is because they were not forgiven. But that does not mean that they committed the unforgivable sin, they could have committed any sin, and then either a) Not believed in Christ, or b) Never heard of Christ, and therefore never believed in Him.

I have never studied the unforgivable sin, so Im not really sure what else to say. Maybe I have that wrong.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Ps. 9:17, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

Ps. 14:1-3 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Rom 3:19-20 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

By nature, no one who has gone astranged from God finds him, but rather hides from even the remaining knowledge that he encounters occasionally, Rom.1:28.

Jn.3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Sin has condemned all, all who are in Adam, the whole human race. In Adam "all die," 1Cor.15:22. Everyone who dies proves by dying he is guilty of sin. Rom.5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If anyone does seek for God, truly, then God has not only prompted that desire in him; but he will also bring him to knowledge of that truth that is in Jesus Christ, in order that he might be saved. "For there is no other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved." Act.4:12.

 

[Matthew1344]

"The" unforgivable sin...

Does "the" mean "only" or "greatest"

If it means "only", then then everyone who is in hell has committed the unforgivable sin, and that is why they are not forgiven. That sin would be a life lived not in faith in Christ.

If it means "greatest", then what is this sin?

 

[Matthew1344]

So Bruce, you are taking the stand that those who have never heard of Christ go to hell because they are guilty of sin and forgetting God, not that they reject Christ?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

So Bruce, you are taking the stand that those who have never heard of Christ go to hell because they are guilty of sin and forgetting God, not that they reject Christ?

Absolutely, I am. I think that's perfectly clear from Scripture. I don't believe in a General Atonement (and Universalism), so I don't believe that everyone already has their sin absolved in the cleansing blood of Christ, and may (or may not!) need to hear about it. Nor do I believe that folks' sin is held nearby the "precious flow, that makes me white as snow," wherever the gospel is preached, so that if they make the right decision based on what they hear, or even just hear it, then they'll lose their guilty stains being plunged beneath the flood of the fountain by way of a divine reaction. And I don't believe that one can gain, and then lose through rejection, his assured redemption. Those who apostatize go out, to show that they were never one of us to begin with, 1Jn.2:19.

Ignorance, indifference, apostasy--the latter are simply worse expressions of the same sin that corrupted our whole race from the beginning. I believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes it, all the elect will believe it, and in general it is the preacher's task to bring it to him as the ordinarily divinely appointed means to that end. By the gospel men--those appointed to eternal life, Act.13:48--meet their Savior, and are united to him by faith, itself an element of the divine gift, Eph.2:8.

I do not endorse everything the following audio clip has to offer. I sure don't agree with Paris Reidhead's "holiness" theology. But he has some good things to say about his experience as a missionary in Africa (and the glory of God). Listen to the first 5 1/2 minutes: Ten Shekels And A Shirt - Part 4 by Paris Reidhead - Sermon Index

 

[Matthew1344]

I'm sorry bruce, I did not communicate clearly. I am not asking whether or not all men are salvifically touched by the gospel, or am I saying that people can lose their salvation.

I am asking if everyone in hell will be there because they reject Christ or because they are sinners?

 

[Matthew1344]

Is it wrong to say all sin ultimately looks at the cross and spits on it. Or is their some sins that are not against the cross?

What my pastor seems to be saying is that there is.

"People that never hear the gospel go to hell because they are sinners. They haven't rejected Christ, they are just sinners. People go to hell because they are sinners, not because they reject Christ." - Pastor

this is what I know:

All men are born sinners, besides our first parents, and because of that we commit sin. The only way that changes is if we are regenerated by the Spirit and given a new nature.

This is what I am trying to figure out:

Is that sin, ultimatelt, a rejection of Christ everytime?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

As you pointed out (rightly) in the OP, not all men hear of Christ in this life (and there is no post-mortem salvation). They die both physically (grave) and spiritually (hell) because of SIN, and divine judgment upon it, Gen.2:17. Those who end up in hell did not need to reject Christ in any direct way. God even knows that some who die everlastingly would have turned in faith (ala Mt.11:21), if they'd been given such news as contained in the gospel.

But in his Prudential order, he did not permit it. Thus, they remained both ignorant and wedded to their sin. They died as rebels to him, never even considering the possibility of another course. But being ignorant of redemption did not remove their culpability; it did not mitigate the pleasure they had in sinning.

The rest of what I wrote simply goes beyond the basic question, to affirm that the opportunity to hear the gospel is primarily intended for the elect. Lk.12:47, "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." Those who are not saved will have less, or more, to answer for depending on what light they each had, which differs.

It is hard to say if, in hell, all "reject" Christ who had not known of him on earth--since they have no opportunity there to embrace him as Christ and Mediator. He is nothing to them there. Sinners continue to add to their sin eternally, by cursing God forever. So, they repudiate God in Three Persons.

 

[Username3000]

I dont know if this is of any use to the conversation, but I was just thinking about when we as believers sin. Are our sins a rejection of Christ? I dont think so, at least not in the sense you mean. Not a scriptural point, but merely a thought.

 

[Matthew1344]

why would my sin still not be a rejection of Christ? I am disobeying him. Isn't that rejecTion of him?

Its not an ultimate rejection but it is still rejection. When I sin I commit adultery against God. I prove myself unfaithful. So, praise God he remains faithful even when I'm not. He still loves me even when I do not love him as I ought.

 

[aadebayo]

I'm sorry bruce, I did not communicate clearly. I am not asking whether or not all men are salvifically touched by the gospel, or am I saying that people can lose their salvation.

I am asking if everyone in hell will be there because they reject Christ or because they are sinners?

There are 2 answers to this question.

For those who have never heard the gospel and those who have the heard the gospel and yet remain in their sins, the text in Luke 12:47-48 which reads

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

and
Matthew 11:20-24 which reads

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Those who have never heard the gospel will be sent to hell as punishment for their sins.
Those who have heard the gospel and yet remained in their sins will have 2 sets of punishments
They will be punished for their sins
they will also be punished for disobeying the gospel. That is, they will be punished for their unbelief. Again Hebrews 2:3 may be helpful here.

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

 

[Matthew1344]

Thank you!