The Messianic Kingdom and Civil Government, by David J. Engelsma

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Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Doctor
We keep getting stuck in the morass of arguments, I think because none of us — myself included — is able refute those we disagree with.

During my prayer this morning, it came to mind that a teacher I once had was able to well-defend the view I hold. This is David J. Engelsma in his essay, “The Messianic Kingdom and Civil Government”. Opening the Introduction he says, “The relation between the kingdom of Jesus Christ and the civil state is a vexed, controversial subject. Basically, the issue is this: Are the state and its officers mandated by God to promote the true church and the gospel by the physical, steel sword, or is it the duty of the state simply to keep outward order in the nation?”

The essay, though concise and to-the-point, is too long to easily post in a thread, so I provide both an online document, and a downloadable PDF where it first appeared, in the PRC’s Theological Journal.

The Messianic Kingdom and Civil Government, by David J. Engelsma

The Messianic Kingdom and Civil Government, by David J. Engelsma, in the Protestant Reformed Theological Journal, VOLUME XXXVII April 2004, Number 2

It had been noted by a couple of people in the previous thread, that our views on this topic are closely related to our eschatology — which has some truth to it — so I will also add another work of Engelsma’s, Christ’s Spiritual Kingdom: A Defence of Reformed Amillennialism. The book originated in a series of editorials in the PRCA’s publication, The Standard Bearer, and much of the book may be found online. The book is out of print, but still available.

This is a break-off from the thread: Confessional War, or Mutual Tolerance?, as it also was getting bogged down in complexity and confusion. Hopefully this will be quite different, as one side will have a coherent and consistent view.
 
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The clarity, depth, and simplicity of Engelsma's presentation is an antidote to "Confession-fatigue"! (The following is from p. 31 of the pdf Journal, or the section heading in the online article,)

Separation of Church and State
By no means, however, does the denial of the state’s calling to establish, support, and promote the true church imply that there is no relation between church and state, or that the state does not have a God-given calling to serve the church, or that the state is not a servant of the kingdom of Christ.​
The state, or civil government, is an institution of God, not in His grace, like the church, but in His providence. Whether the origin of civil government, biblically, is the family as ordained by God in His creation of man on the sixth day of creation, or the divine Word to Noah in Genesis 9:5-6 concerning the execution of murderers, civil government is not grounded in the gospel, but in the revelation of God in creation. Civil government does not concern itself with the salvation of sinners, but with the existence and order of the nation. The validity of civil government does not depend upon the state’s adherence to Scripture, or upon the Christianity of the rulers, but “the powers that be are ordained of God,” whether Shih Huang-ti of China, or Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, or Caesar Nero of Rome, or Hitler of Germany.​
The state is separate from, and independent of, the church. A strong doctrine of the separation of church and state is not an American theory. It is the plain teaching of the Bible in both testaments. As regards the teaching of the New Testament, there can be no dispute. Alongside the churches in all countries were civil governments. These governments had no connection with the churches whatever, had little, if any, knowledge of the churches, and certainly did not establish, support, and promote the churches. For the most part, the rulers were pagans. But these civil governments were institutions of God among men. As citizens of a particular nation, the members of the churches were called to honor the rulers in the state as vested with authority from God (Rom. 13:1-7; 1 Pet. 2:13-17).​

From beginning to end Engelsma interacts with the nuances and anomalies that mired down our discussions in complexity and confusion. He also is thoroughly familiar with the various Reformed theologians and their views, and makes Biblical sense of all aspects of the issues.
 
I will only interact with the quoted portion of the article. In fact, I will pick up on one point, and I am prepared to say that one's position essentially depends on this one point. Engelsma quotes Romans 13:1. He shows the legitimacy of the civil magistrate rests in providence. The powers that be are ordained of God. RPs will disagree because they regard it as a moral institution. But most establishmentarians will agree with Engelsma here.

The "being" of the magistrate is one thing; his "wellbeing" is another. Granted, providence makes it legitimate (although we will all add the qualification of a democratically elected government to this element of "providence"). What makes the magistrate a "good" magistrate? Is there anything laid down in Scripture to determine this? Yes. Paul says, "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

We have the terms "good" and "evil." The magistrate is ordained of God providentially, but he is accountable to God morally. He has no power to do or to reward evil. He only has power from God to punish evil, to do good, and to reward good. His "wellbeing" depends on his moral accountability to God for the execution of his office.

Now, how does God define good and evil? In His moral law. The summary of this is found in the 10 commandments. The first commandment is, Thou shalt have no other gods before me. It is good to have no other gods. It is evil to have other gods. The magistrate, if he is to do what is good in God's eyes, has power to punish the evildoer and to reward those who do well. He has power from God to punish the idolater and reward those who only worship the true God.

Add to this the second commandment against image worship, the third commandment against taking God's name in vain, and the fourth commandment on keeping the Sabbath. Add to this the second table of the law. And what do we have? The magistrate is a keeper of both tables of the law. This is his providentially ordained power. And this is exactly what we are told in 1 Timothy 1:9-10:

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

Any person who upholds the lawful use of the law, and maintains the first use of the law -- its civil or political use -- is bound to acknowledge the power of the civil magistrate to proceed against those who break God's commandments.

But here, at this point, we are introduced to a new doctrine. The new doctrine teaches that the magistrate is to be limited in the exercise of his God-given authority. Who limits him? It is not God. It is man. You will not find this doctrine anywhere in the Bible. You will only find an appeal to human experience and human enlightenment to support it. This doctrine now makes the magistrate dependent on man for the exercise of his authority. A new god has been set up in the place of the true God. This is nothing other than the establishment of a false religion.
 
I will only interact with the quoted portion of the article. In fact, I will pick up on one point, and I am prepared to say that one's position essentially depends on this one point. Engelsma quotes Romans 13:1. He shows the legitimacy of the civil magistrate rests in providence. The powers that be are ordained of God. RPs will disagree because they regard it as a moral institution. But most establishmentarians will agree with Engelsma here.
Rev. Winzer - Are you familiar with William Symington's interpretation of Romans 13 in his book, Messiah the Prince? If so, what is your assessment of it?

Thank you!
 
Rev. Winzer - Are you familiar with William Symington's interpretation of Romans 13 in his book, Messiah the Prince? If so, what is your assessment of it?

Thank you!

I don't want to derail this thread. I gave some comment on this here:

 
I don't want to derail this thread. I gave some comment on this here:

Thank you! I'm not sure it would be a derailment. The Engelsma article deals with Romans 13 and he also quotes Symington at one point in the article (although not directly in regard to Romans 13). So, I think Symington's views are relevant to the discussion of the article. However, I will view your comments in the other thread.
 
I am puzzled you would only answer a brief "blurb" and not his intact argument. Is that not as Prov 18:13 KJV says, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him"?

Still, Matthew, I thank you for not wanting to derail this thread!

I had said in the OP that the Engelsma article was too long to post in its entirety. I also said, "We keep getting stuck in the morass of arguments.... getting bogged down in complexity and confusion." Which is what your contribution thus far is only perpetuating. I do not want that to happen here in this thread.

In the previous threads I was asked to listen to extensive arguments promoting the EP side of things. If you don't want to listen here to a coherent presentation of the Messianic Kingdom in relation to the civil government, fine, that's your prerogative. But for those who know — yet cannot well formulate a response to the labyrinthine EP material — the material presented here gives them a coherent and scholarly rebuttal to the EP and a positive Biblical position on which to stand.

I have pondered going further — posting where I had left off on the Separation of Church and State section — but that would risk another partial response out of context with the full material.

You folks who know the EP view is neither Biblical nor "workable", it is imperative you have access to, and understanding of, the clear and coherent Biblical position. Otherwise you will have the net of EP thrown over you, and you will be silenced in the blur and fog of it. We cannot refute error if we do not have truth.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15 KJV).
 
Steve, I answered the sum of his argument in one point so that the thread would not get bogged down.

I gave you biblical arguments. Romans 13 and 1 Timothy 1 are there for your consideration.

We all believe in the separation of Church and State. It has been clarified numerous times. That is not the issue. The issue is, What power has God given to the civil government concerning religion? You will not find your limitations in the Bible.
 
That's a good question, Jake. I'm not sure how to answer it. Surely we are all suffering from "Confession war fatigue".

We both — both sides, that is — have gone through hundreds of posts trying to settle this. What I am posting now is new information.

I don't know why I didn't remember DJE's work earlier, as it was he that first brought this matter to my attention years ago. Perhaps it is my age. My elevator doesn't always go to the top floor these days!
 
Matthew, the “higher powers . . . rulers” of Romans 13 — the civil magistrates in Paul’s day — referred to the pagan higher powers, such as the Caesars and rulers of other nations, none of whom had the competence to be “a keeper of both tables of the law.” Their competence was in maintaining civil order and protecting their people. Engelsma comments: There is a mandate to civil government in the New Testament. Repeatedly, the New Testament charges civil government with a vitally important duty. It charges every civil government with this duty.” He goes into this in-depth, both historically and Scripturally.

The following is from pages 22-28 of the above-linked Protestant Reformed Theological Journal,

“Put Up Thy Sword”​


Reformed churches must repudiate the position that the state has the calling from God to recognize and support the true church, to promote the gospel, and to destroy the false church and false religion. Reformed churches must repudiate this view of the calling of the state even though it was held by most of the Reformers. Reformed churches must repudiate this doctrine of the state’s calling as found in the original edition of certain of the Reformed confessions.

First, there is the undeniable fact that in the almost two thousand years of the history of the church of the New Testament after Pentecost it has almost never been the case that a godly state has established and promoted the true church as its duty to the Lord Jesus Christ. There certainly have been times when God in His providence used the state to protect and defend the true church in extraordinary circumstances. One thinks of Emperor Constantine in the fourth century, of Elector Frederick of the Palatinate in the sixteenth century, and of Prince Maurice of the Netherlands in the seventeenth century. But God’s use of the state in His providence is not the same as a godly state’s consciously promoting the true church as an act of obedience to God. Even in the most outstanding instances of the state’s protection and defense of the true church in New Testament history, the genuine godliness of the prince is suspect. Regarding Constantine and Maurice, there is good reason to believe that their energetic defense of the true church was motivated not so much by a desire to obey God as by a desire to use the church for their own political ends.

The doctrine of an established church, so passionately held by some, is unrealistic. It is a doctrine about something that has never been, is not anywhere on earth today, and never will be to the world’s end. It has no practical application. This in itself is not so serious, perhaps, although the advocates of the doctrine contend for it as if it were a fundamental doctrine of the Reformed faith, but the doctrine presents itself as God’s will for civil government.

The question about the doctrine is this: Is God’s will for civil government unrealistic, unrealized, and unrealizable? In the language of Romans 13:1, if the higher authorities are God’s servant by establishing the true church and promoting the gospel, are these authorities, in fact, never God’s servant at all?

Although this was not true of the Reformers, most modern Presbyterian defenders of the notion that the state must establish the church and promote the gospel hang their doctrine of the state on the peg of postmillennialism. They concede that states have not yet been the servants of God they are called to be, or truly the servants of God as they ought to be. They concede the impossibility of any contemporary state’s being the servant of God. But they pin their hope on the coming millennium. When, in the earthly future, Scotland, the United States, and all the other nations of the world are “Christianized” by the conversion of the vast majority of the human race, then, finally, the state will become the servant of God, establishing the Reformed church, making her confessions the law of the land, outlawing all other public worship, and punishing heretics, if not all who dissent from the Reformed religion.

As James Bannerman cast about for proof in Scripture that the state must “recognise, and, in so far as circumstances permit, … endow the Church,” he could only appeal to “the alliance of Church and state among the Jews.” But he quickly, and significantly, added:

This evidence of the Divine sanction given to the support and recognition of the Church by the state might be very greatly augmented by a consideration of those predictions in regard to the future or millennial state of the Church, in which kings and kingdoms are especially represented as in the latter days bringing their gold and their honour unto it, and becoming the great instruments of promoting its spiritual interests. (22 Bannerman, Church of Christ, vol. 1, p. 133.)​

Projecting the state’s service of God by establishing and promoting the true church into the millennium concedes that until that time the state has not, in fact, been the servant of God, or, at least, the servant of God as it ought to have been. Since postmillennialism is a dream—according to the Second Helvetic Confession “Jewish dreams”23 —the notion that the state will one day be the servant of God by recognising and promoting the true church is fantasy. (23 “We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth” The Second Helvetic Confession, 1566, chap. 11, in Reformed Confessions of the 16th Century, pp. 245, 246).

A second reason for rejecting the doctrine that the state must actively support the true church is the warning of church history. This warning is that whenever a civil government did exert itself to establish the church, support it with money and the other physical resources of the state, punish ministers who opposed the church’s doctrine, and extirpate dissenters, the result has always been detrimental to the true church. Indeed, the result has been well-nigh ruinous.

One of the greatest disasters in church history was the recognition of Christianity as the religion of the realm by Constantine. Thousands of hypocrites flooded the church. The church began to rely on the steel sword of the state rather than the spiritual sword of Christ. And the Romanizing of the church was assured.

Usually, the establishing of a church meant persecution for the true church. Very clearly before my mind is the suffering of the Reformed saints in the Netherlands in the sixteenth century at the hands of the state and the Roman Catholic Church in unholy alliance and again in the nineteenth century at the hands of the state and the established Reformed church. (24 For a brief account in English of these persecutions of the true church in the Netherlands by alliances of the state and the established church, see D. H. Kromminga, The Christian Reformed Tradition; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1943;, pp. 7-20, 79-98.)

Even the most ardent advocates of the position that the state must support, promote, and defend the true church admit that the implementing of the position has proved to be harmful to the church. Arguing that nations and their rulers are obliged “to aim, in the regulation of national affairs, at the good of the church of Christ, and the welfare of true religion,” William Cunningham acknowledged that “it is undoubtedly true, that in most cases the interference of the civil power in religious matters has done more evil than good.” He referred particularly to the evil of the established church’s consenting “to sinful interferences upon the part of the civil authorities with the rights and privileges which Christ had conferred upon [the church].” Cunningham doubted whether “any Protestant established church has ever wholly escaped this sin and degradation, except the Church of Scotland at the era of the second Reformation.” (25 Cunningham, Historical Theology, vol. 1, p. 394.)

In the third place, and most importantly, there is no biblical warrant for the position that God mandates the state to establish the church, punish heretics, and root out false religion.

The mandate to Old Testament Israel to punish idolaters and the examples of kings actively promoting the true worship of Jehovah God do not apply in the new dispensation to any earthly nation. The application is alone to that nation which is the fulfillment of Old Testament Israel. That nation is the church. The church is the “holy nation” today (1 Pet. 2:9). The church promotes the right worship of God and wars against the kingdom of the lie, not by physical force, but by purely spiritual power and weaponry. “Ecclesia non sitit sanguinem.” [The Church does not thirst for blood]

The true church is established and promoted, not by the sword of the state, but by the gospel. Heresies within the church are dealt with by the church’s excommunication. False religion and idolatry outside the church are destroyed by the church’s confession of the truth. “We do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ” (2 Cor. 10:3-5).

The state has no power to promote the gospel. All that the state has is the steel sword. Promotion of the gospel demands the sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:17). The state has no ability to promote the gospel. What competency does Caesar have to judge doctrine? to recognize the true church among all the sects and false churches claiming to be the church of Christ? to destroy “spiritual wickedness in high places,” which is the real foe of the church? (Eph. 6:12)

Certainly, God does not charge this institution, this servant, of His with a duty for the execution of which He gives His servant neither power nor ability.

The state has no authority to recognize, establish, support, and promote the true church. In the entire New Testament, there is no divine mandate to civil government, to promote the true church with its steel sword. There is a mandate to civil government in the New Testament. Repeatedly, the New Testament charges civil government with a vitally important duty. It charges every civil government with this duty. It charges the civil governments of that day with their duty. But the mandate of the New Testament is not that the state promote the true church by establishing the church and by destroying false religions.

Very few even of the most ardent advocates of the supposed duty of the state to establish the true church dare to appeal to the New Testament. For good reason. Romans 13:1-7, classic passage on the state and its service of God, teaches that the existing state, the godless, idolatrous Roman Empire, is—not should be, or will be, but is—the servant of God. As servant of God, the godless Empire—the Caesar—has a mandate from God, which it is also carrying out—in Paul’s own day. That mandate, which the Roman state is also carrying out, certainly is not recognizing, supporting, and promoting the true church. The notion is absurd. Nor is the Roman state, in Paul’s own day, the servant of God by virtue of its punishing heretics and rooting out false religion. Obviously, the mandate is something completely different. The service of this servant of God to its divine master is radically different from the service rendered to God by the kingdom of Christ, the true church. God intends that the service of earthly nations be radically different from that of the spiritual nation, the church.

When Jesus told Peter to put his sword away and when He reminded Pilate that His servants would not fight, He laid down a universal, inflexible, profound, and necessary law: His kingdom is not promoted by physical force; neither does His kingdom wage war on the kingdom of Satan with carnal weapons (Matt. 26:52, 53; John 18:36). This law rules out the promotion of the church by the state, for the only force the state has is physical and the only weapons the state has are carnal.

For all his stubborn insistence on the duty of the state to execute heretics and to defend the church with arms, Calvin was too biblical a theologian to rest easy with this stand.

Immediately after his defensive comment on John 18:36 quoted earlier in this article, that those who infer from the text that “the doctrine of the Gospel and the pure worship of God ought not to be defended by arms are unskilful and ignorant reasoners,” Calvin quickly and correctly, though inconsistently, added: “The kingdom of Christ, being spiritual, must be founded on the doctrine and power of the Spirit. In the same manner, too, its edification is promoted.” He assured his readers that magistrates only “accidentally” defend the kingdom of Christ. And, happily, he concluded: “The kingdom of Christ is strengthened more by the blood of the martyrs than by the aid of arms.” (26 Calvin, Gospel according to John, pp. 210, 211.)​

After this section he proceeds into a discussion of Luther and his views, which are quite contrary to most of the Reformers who came after him.
 
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That's a good question, Jake. I'm not sure how to answer it. Surely we are all suffering from "Confession war fatigue".

We both — both sides, that is — have gone through hundreds of posts trying to settle this. What I am posting now is new information.

I might offer a friendly suggestion then to all participations. If we are already fatigued and we are hundreds of posts in, will more posts and articles do it? I know we will all agree, probably not. Perhaps (more) prayer is the thing needed instead.

I do have a high view of Christ's promises for the church to be one according to John 17, and Paul's words according to Ephesians 4; but Christ knew the oneness would come as a result of prayer; thus, Jesus himself prayed.

Oneness in Ephesians 4 is the outflow of all the glorious things promised in Ephesians 1-3, which things Paul prayed the believers would come to understand. I do not believe it's merely unity in love and affection which is promised--which is sine qua non to all other forms of Christian unity (1 Cor 13)--but doctrinal/practical as well.

Oneness between all of us on these matters is indeed possible. I believe so anyway.

Perhaps it's just time to break and pray instead? Or perhaps, all of us be sure that we are appropriately praying over the discussion? Me included.

I get edgy on PB around election season. Stakes are high, opinions strong, and great opportunity for oneness to be busted up (which it seems participants have been very watchful against! :cheers:). It's a great time to ask great things of the Prophet of the Church.

I'm accusing no one of prayerlessness in regards to this! The discussion must happen too. We're dealing with high-takes reality. However, if we are feeling fatigue on this matter, perhaps we are being constrained toward another resource.
 
The thing is, Jake, there has been — so far — no simple, coherent presentation refuting the very strong mandates declared upon us all by Gavin Beers. It needs to be done.
 
Rev. Rafalsky – With all due respect, I would just note that the information/materials that have been offered in defense of the establishment principle (EP) were dismissed as having “to go through hours and hours of instruction – schooling by veritable extended classes of indoctrination and argument.” You then went on to provide multiple lengthy posts, started two additional break-out threads, and provided quotes/articles of your own. I’m curious if you have bothered to view, listen to, or read the materials we have provided? If you have, then I appreciate you taking the time to do so. If you haven't, then is it possible that you are attempting to refute a position that you have not fully familiarized yourself with? Again, I don't mean any disrespect in saying that...I just think it is a fair expectation that if you are claiming to refute Gavin Beers (and M’Crie, etc.) that you have at least fully understood and engaged with his arguments for the EP. He also deals with some of the common objections being put forth by you and DJE.

If one will actually bother to take the time to fully understand our position, he will see that DJE’s article is full of misleading comments, mischaracterizations of the EP, and easily refuted arguments. In fact, many of his arguments have already been dealt with on this and other threads.

I would love to go through DJE’s article more thoroughly and respond to each of his arguments, but as stated above I am suffering from "Confession war fatigue" and don’t have the time or energy for a full response. I will just offer a couple of examples...

Right off the bat in the Introduction, DJE attempts to associate the EP with the Christian Reconstruction and Theonomy movements. Later in a footnote he says this:

"In fact, it is not difficult to imagine North, De Mar, Gentry, and the other disciples of Rushdoony stoning to death, among all the others, the few remaining uncompromising Reformed amillennialists as blasphemers."

I hold to the EP. I am also a Reformed amillennialist. I am not a disciple of Bahnsen, Rushdoony et al, and don’t personally know any EP advocates who are. I'm also not aware of any EP advocates who are calling for the stoning to death of Reformed amillennialists. I’m not sure how many times we need to disavow that we are not calling for the stoning to death or persecution of anyone. This has already been dealt with in other threads. If DJE wants to argue against Reconstruction/Theonomy that's fine - I will join him - but he should not conflate that with the EP.

DJE also puts a lot of emphasis on our alleged desire to advance the gospel with our “cold, steel sword" and our failure to recognize that “the Messianic kingdom is not political”.

Contrast this misleading characterization of the EP position with this quote from one of the leading advocates of the EP:

“...seeing the Magistrate's acting in his sphere for the Church's good, is no ways inconsistent with the spirituality of Christ's kingdom. For we do not at all plead for the Magistrate's power to be employed by methods of force and violence to set up Christ's spiritual and internal kingdom in men's hearts, or to oblige men's consciences to receive his laws, as the kings of this world do force their conquered subjects to receive and obey theirs. No, this spiritual kingdom of Christ is set up in the souls and consciences of men by means and weapons of a spiritual nature, as the apostle tells us (2 Cor. 10), viz: by the preaching of the gospel, and working of the Spirit of God therewith...” (source of quote is attached below).

DJE goes on to say:

“Reformed churches must repudiate the position that the state has the calling from God to recognize and support the true church, to promote the gospel, and to destroy the false church and false religion. Reformed churches must repudiate this view of the calling of the state even though it was held by most of the Reformers. Reformed churches must repudiate this doctrine of the state’s calling as found in the original edition of certain of the Reformed confessions.”

If DJE’s article represents the best arguments against the EP that the voluntaryists have to offer, then I seriously doubt if any EP folks will be repudiating our position any time soon. At least he is honest in fully acknowledging that he is repudiating Calvin, and what virtually all the Reformed churches, confessions, catechisms, and theologians unanimously taught.

In closing, I would just encourage folks to take the time to review the materials (articles, podcasts, videos, etc.) posted on the other threads and fully understand the EP position before rejecting it. And certainly, don't reject it based solely on the DJE article. Approach the EP resources with prayer and an open mind.

The EP is supported by the light of nature (natural revelation) and both the Old and New Testaments. Many doctrines that we hold dear take an investment of time (yes, even "hours and hours") and study to fully grasp. The EP is no different.

"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all..." (WCF 1.7)

 
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Hello Charles,

I do understand your position, even though there are some variants among those who hold to the EP view, so I can be excused if those differing among yourselves cause some confusion. In the main your views – Gavin Beers' – are coherent.

Yes, DJE does associate the EP view with Theonomy, but his main point in that area is the Post-Millennial eschatology usually held by those embracing EP. I’m surprised you identify as a Reformed Amil. I’ll have to ponder that.

It was a matter of agreement with the Reformers – way before Theonomy! – that the civil magistrate was to punish heretics and false religion, even unto death in some cases. It was Bannerman and Cunningham (noted above) who dissented strongly with that, going against the grain of the majority by opposing the “persecuting principle”, which opposition is generally accepted in these days.

Quite apart from violence, the magistrates’ financial support of the chosen sect that is aligned with them, is a favoring of one sect over others, which can be detrimental to those not so favored, especially in hard times.

The burden of Engelsma’s view (in my recent post above) is that the civil magistrate has a distinct role given him by the LORD, which is to maintain order in the land, not to be involved with the church as it is not competent to decide on matters spiritual. (Responding to MW’s view of Romans 13 and the “higher powers”.)

I don’t expect any EP folks to repudiate their view on my or DJE’s say-so – you folks are sincere and godly, and your lives are deeply invested in your form of godliness. Would more people be as godly and committed as you are!

It is for those who, by conscience and commitment to the word of God, do not adhere to your views, but instead the more recent American revision of the WCF, that I write and labor in this matter.

Engelsma is greatly burdened over this matter of the majority of the Reformers holding to the EP view of the civil magistrate, with the notable exception of Luther, whose views he examines and holds up. We are to go against a multitude if they err. Those were different days and times the Reformers lived in, and it seemed right to them.

Even Calvin can err! (Just to note, DJE loves Calvin, and has written a book, The Reformed Faith Of John Calvin: The Institutes in Summary.)

It’s late where I am, so I’ll look at M’Crie’s paper tomorrow. Thanks for taking the time to write.
 
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Rev. Rafalsky – With all due respect, I would just note that the information/materials that have been offered in defense of the establishment principle (EP) were dismissed as having “to go through hours and hours of instruction – schooling by veritable extended classes of indoctrination and argument.” You then went on to provide multiple lengthy posts, started two additional break-out threads, and provided quotes/articles of your own. I’m curious if you have bothered to view, listen to, or read the materials we have provided? If you have, then I appreciate you taking the time to do so. If you haven't, then is it possible that you are attempting to refute a position that you have not fully familiarized yourself with? Again, I don't mean any disrespect in saying that...I just think it is a fair expectation that if you are claiming to refute Gavin Beers (and M’Crie, etc.) that you have at least fully understood and engaged with his arguments for the EP. He also deals with some of the common objections being put forth by you and DJE.

If one will actually bother to take the time to fully understand our position, he will see that DJE’s article is full of misleading comments, mischaracterizations of the EP, and easily refuted arguments. In fact, many of his arguments have already been dealt with on this and other threads.

I would love to go through DJE’s article more thoroughly and respond to each of his arguments, but as stated above I am suffering from "Confession war fatigue" and don’t have the time or energy for a full response. I will just offer a couple of examples...

Right off the bat in the Introduction, DJE attempts to associate the EP with the Christian Reconstruction and Theonomy movements. Later in a footnote he says this:

"In fact, it is not difficult to imagine North, De Mar, Gentry, and the other disciples of Rushdoony stoning to death, among all the others, the few remaining uncompromising Reformed amillennialists as blasphemers."

I hold to the EP. I am also a Reformed amillennialist. I am not a disciple of Bahnsen, Rushdoony et al, and don’t personally know any EP advocates who are. I'm also not aware of any EP advocates who are calling for the stoning to death of Reformed amillennialists. I’m not sure how many times we need to disavow that we are not calling for the stoning to death or persecution of anyone. This has already been dealt with in other threads. If DJE wants to argue against Reconstruction/Theonomy that's fine - I will join him - but he should not conflate that with the EP.

DJE also puts a lot of emphasis on our alleged desire to advance the gospel with our “cold, steel sword" and our failure to recognize that “the Messianic kingdom is not political”.

Contrast this misleading characterization of the EP position with this quote from one of the leading advocates of the EP:

“...seeing the Magistrate's acting in his sphere for the Church's good, is no ways inconsistent with the spirituality of Christ's kingdom. For we do not at all plead for the Magistrate's power to be employed by methods of force and violence to set up Christ's spiritual and internal kingdom in men's hearts, or to oblige men's consciences to receive his laws, as the kings of this world do force their conquered subjects to receive and obey theirs. No, this spiritual kingdom of Christ is set up in the souls and consciences of men by means and weapons of a spiritual nature, as the apostle tells us (2 Cor. 10), viz: by the preaching of the gospel, and working of the Spirit of God therewith...” (source of quote is attached below).

DJE goes on to say:

“Reformed churches must repudiate the position that the state has the calling from God to recognize and support the true church, to promote the gospel, and to destroy the false church and false religion. Reformed churches must repudiate this view of the calling of the state even though it was held by most of the Reformers. Reformed churches must repudiate this doctrine of the state’s calling as found in the original edition of certain of the Reformed confessions.”

If DJE’s article represents the best arguments against the EP that the voluntaryists have to offer, then I seriously doubt if any EP folks will be repudiating our position any time soon. At least he is honest in fully acknowledging that he is repudiating Calvin, and what virtually all the Reformed churches, confessions, catechisms, and theologians unanimously taught.

In closing, I would just encourage folks to take the time to review the materials (articles, podcasts, videos, etc.) posted on the other threads and fully understand the EP position before rejecting it. And certainly, don't reject it based solely on the DJE article. Approach the EP resources with prayer and an open mind.

The EP is supported by the light of nature (natural revelation) and both the Old and New Testaments. Many doctrines that we hold dear take an investment of time (yes, even "hours and hours") and study to fully grasp. The EP is no different.

"All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all..." (WCF 1.7)

Yes, take the time to study these discussions. But don't just read the arguments but also be aware on how the arguments are portrayed and developed. When someone, either side, says here's the biblical argument for/against it and you read a different interpretation of the same texts, which one makes the most sense? If someone appeals to other kinds of evidence for or against it did either side adequately deal with it or not?
Are there legitimately different definitions of the same words? There's nothing wrong with that but if either side is using a word in a strange way to how it normally is used without the different use being acknowledged is that a fair argument or not? If someone says I believe in such and such but then, when pressed, defines it in a way that defies normal usage than ask why?
You know the difference between using a word that normally means one thing and is then used in a different way. If the new definition destroys some basic element of that word but someone insists on still using it, ask why? Why not admit a redefining took place and be upfront about it?
To the average readers, with no skin in the game, do y'all think it's fair to expect a synopsis of a multi hour talk on key issues that makes sense enough for someone to spend the time listening to it? In my experience in all kinds of debates misunderstanding and correction by putting forth better presentations of the material is essential but always ask for some basic answer to a basic question. But it can be used to deflect legitimate questions. A question is asked, response is something like "go listen to the talk I posted". A better response would be "here's a basic answer to your question but a more thorough answer is in the talk". Discussion's can be like sale's pitches, did the salesman give you good reason to read the pamphlet or not? Obviously no one is here trying to deceive anyone but a basic answer to wet the appetite is not unreasonable.
Other considerations should be what kind of claims or answers are given? Does either side, both sides, make claims that are pretty high. How high did they set the bar? When a response is given to a claim, was it answered or was the previous claim reduced down to a more reasonable level? Is it unreasonable to expect some change in the discussion after a response is given? Are strong claims just asserted over and over again? Those types of arguments ought to leave us asking questions about the position.
If a position, whatever it is, has an essential element/elements in common with a different kind of position, and the critic points out the overlap between the two only to hear that's a straw man argument because they're not the same thing but no basic explanation on acknowledging the overlap and some basic reason to doubt they're the same is given. Just stop and go back and revaluate the situation.
I've been accused many times of being a nominalist, I'm not but I understand that in my manners of speaking I do give off that impression. So it is on me to explain the difference not the critic. Or my understanding of Pragmatism, I have the impression that it's a very misunderstood movement but I understand why. Would it be fair or beneficial to the conversation to just deny the accusations and carry-on because "my critic's don't understand"? No, that ought to be insulting to anyone. It's on me to address the criticism and then attempt to explain my position, where and how is my position different in a substantial way from the criticism?
Ask why? Why should I, with no skin in the game, who can understand "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it's a duck", only to hear well it's a misunderstanding to call it a duck. How's it a misunderstanding? You should be able to give a basic answer, right?
Do study scripture on this, what does it say? Who's really interpreting a particular verse correctly? Who's really interpreting it in the total context that it's given? Is the case being made dependent on one kind of genre of scripture? Is that being related to other essential genres of scripture? Or is it dominating clear contexts of scripture that don't on the surface agree with it.
I hate to point out the obvious but both sides know their respective strengths and weaknesses. Again if you pay attention to the various discussion's on any subject, divided roughly even to two sides, you'll be well aware of this. We all know where the weak points are in the other side and our own. That's just reality, but one benefit of these debates to people who don't have any skin in the game is observing how debates are carried out. Often times learning the nuts and bolts of a thing is beneficial, but I'm well aware I'm "preaching to the choir".
That's one of the many reasons this site is so unique on the internet. We have confessional boundaries in place to regulate our discussions, scripture first and foremost (we are Protestant after all) but a secondary level of confession and then thirdly a tradition to inform and regulate our discussions. Everyone involved would repent of their previous view if it was shown to be contrary to scripture. My thanks to the moderators for regulating these discussions.
I think there's many other issues the average readers should be aware of in the type's and methods of arguments used. Always ask basic questions and evaluate whether or not a reasonable answer was given. Demand answers that make sense. Demand answers you can in fact evaluate, if not than why not? Pay attention to how the basic conversation is going. You're all smart, if it doesn't seem right than not everything is right.

All I'm saying is great arguments have been given by both sides and great responses. I'm sure the average person, with no skin in the game, can evaluate them and come to the most reasonable conclusion in their eyes. You have a multitude of resources given as well.
 
Steve,

At what point should we agree that we have successfully made our case and refuted the other side?
See my evaluation above for my general take on evaluating the discussion. To hone in on your question, one that's kinda a subjective thing. I mean if I reiterate an argument over and over with no reasonable answer I just assume no answer is coming, I could be wrong but time will tell.
That's why I like to point out the bigger discussion going on from time to time. If I can show that in the bigger discussion the other side is debating this way and then they do, that gives evidence to what I'm saying. If I can point out a fundamental flaw in their general argument and then show over and over again that flaw creeping into the discussion, again that's evidence.
It's repeatable mistakes in debates that I think are very beneficial to your case. They could be completely right but just arguing in a terrible way and I can point out how terribly they're arguing, no amount of being right is going to change the lack of persuasiveness in their presentation.
All in all I'm much more interested in the observers of the discussion, they have no skin in the game.
 
I’m new here so obviously my opinion isn’t worth much, but it seems to me that the PRC and Engelsma should be more open about their rejection of basic Reformed principles, especially regarding the gospel offer, the covenants, and Christian ethics.

Protestant Reformed is as similar to the Confessional consensus as the CREC and FV.
 
The below is from Religion and Republic. It articulates how State Establishment and National Disestablishment functioned in the nation's early years. It demonstrates how a populace can function as a Christian society (and even advocate for the restriction of certain religious expressions) without insisting upon National Establishment. Some wanted a purely secular Republic, but this was (as seen) not universal:

At the beginning of the nineteenth century, Thomas Jefferson's status as the greatest living American seemed assured. He had authored the Declaration of Independence at thirty-three years old and over the next two decades became a celebrated diplomat, intellectual, and statesman. Jefferson's legacy as a religious thinker has generally hinged on his authorship of the Virginia statute on religious freedom and his commitment to disestablishment in his home commonwealth. Baptists and later generations of evangelical Protestants saw Jefferson as the key political ally in disestablishing religion and offering religious liberty to their co-religionists. Thomas S. Kidd and Barry Hankins called Jefferson and Madison the chief allies of Baptists in fulfilling the latter's desires for what they perceived as true religious liberty. Jefferson's role "in collaboration with the Bible-believing Baptists was spiritually ironic."1 Kidd and Hankins posited that Jefferson in fact "remained a religious skeptic throughout his life."

Disestablishment represented only one aspect of Jefferson's thought however, and he was far from passive in his dislike of institutional Christianity. The Jeffersonian "wall of separation," posited his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, has been praised by evangelicals in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Russell Moore in his book Onward, for instance, argued that Christians could live happily with separation so long as the state did not weigh in on religious matters: "A state that sees some aspect of Christian witness as bigoted and dangerous will not long stay on the other side of that wall."2 But what Moore and other evangelicals failed to note is that Jefferson himself saw much of traditional Christianity, especially religious institutions, as bigoted and dangerous, and he saw separation as a way of keeping churchly influence from broader society. Jefferson's legacy was more about separating religion from the civil sphere than it was about merely removing the privileged position of state churches. The third president was largely quiet about his skepticism in public—all that we know about it comes from a few lapses in Notes on the State of Virginia and private correspondence, some of it not even sent. Yet his private views are evident enough in his public policy, and his supposed rights of conscience ran only one way: toward de-churching society. While the Virginian might not have hated "religion," he loathed churchly institutions and Protestant clerics. This stemmed not only from his pronounced anti-clericalism, but from a belief that aspects of the Christian Bible were antagonistic toward the natural law regime he hoped to perpetuate in the new American republic. Federalist divines—so often seen as reactionaries—and even some conservative Republican devotees of Jefferson in fact had good reason to think that Jefferson's ideas might unhinge and unmoor the historic Protestant social order they understood themselves to have inherited and believed they needed to maintain. Broad acceptance of disestablishment as an accomplished political fact did not mean that Jeffersonian separation doctrines were popular or even the norm in the Early National United States.

The political success of disestablishment and the numerical growth of its most obvious beneficiaries—Baptists and Methodists—obscured to later historians and clerics the continuing commitment of Anglicans, Congregationalists, and some Presbyterians to the close relationship between church and state that religious Americans believed could endure even in a disestablished religious order. George Washington, an Anglican vestrymen, broadly affirmed disestablishment but, as Michael Novak and Jane Novak have noted, broke with Jefferson and Madison on the idea that "disestablishment was a necessary consequence of religious liberty."3 The first president "held both in principle and in practice…that government ought to endorse religious seriousness in general, since a long-lived republic" depended on a virtuous citizenry. Washington also saw government rightly accommodating itself to "to the claims of conscience in various religious bodies, in a manner consistent with the common good and public order."4 It is common to note that Washington did not take communion, and his relationship with religion has been litigated too many times to count. But on the question of religion and the state, he affirmed the long-time understanding among Protestants and Anglicans that church and state both played a role in upholding civil society, and that they could cooperate in doing so. The extreme disestablishmentarianism of Jefferson and Madison—churches weren't able to incorporate again in Virginia until the beginning of the twenty-first century—"did not exhaust the range of the Founders' thinking about matters of church and state, and their views were far more narrow than Washington's." Washington's identification with the nascent Federalist Party during his presidency stemmed from the conservative beliefs regarding church and state that he shared with the party. While they did not see state churches as a necessity to ensure a virtuous social order and promote virtue, they did see the public presence of religion, and particularly Christianity, as non-negotiable. Historian Patrick Allitt has noted that "while the First Amendment to the Constitution declared that Congress should pass no laws relating to an established religion…it said nothing about the states, several of which retained established churches for several decades after the Revolution."5 States like Connecticut and Massachusetts into the nineteenth century "followed the European erastian tradition, according to which the church was a branch of the state and subsidized by the state, unifying it and embodying its religious and moral will."6 Jeffersonian separation appealed to evangelical groups without long traditions as the natural alternative to New England Erastianism, but this created a historical binary where there were in fact other ways in which public Christianity was upheld than state-supported churches.

Anglican vestrymen like Washington and others in the federal Congress and state legislatures implemented the constitutionally disestablished religious milieu but without Virginia's particularly aggressive disposition to de-church their political and social realms. The Old Dominion's en masse secularization program was an anomaly, and states allowed a wide variety of privileges for Episcopal churches and other bodies to remain in place. Even the retention of property served as a vehicle for Episcopalians in New York, for example, to exercise a "disproportionate influence" politically and socially well into the nineteenth century because of their wealth.7 As late as the 1850s Episcopal rectors believed that the United States government and certain states had overstepped the bounds of prudence and a rightly ordered society by stripping established churches of their historic civic and social functions and rights beyond that of state financial support. After 1786, the Commonwealth of Virginia requisitioned church lands, for example, without compensation. John Norton, a Kentucky rector and biographer of bishop William White (1748–1836), believed that a clique of godless politicians had set out to use disestablishment to harm Anglicans. "The Episcopal Church," he lamented, "had scarcely begun to recover from the effects of past misfortunes" when Jefferson and Madison set their dissenters on Episcopal churchmanship.8 Anglicans, Norton noted, could "point to Washington, and Jay, and Morris, and Madison, and Marshall, among her members, as evidence that the Episcopal government harmonized most perfectly with the free institutions of the land," but that was not enough for Virginia dissenters and their Jeffersonian republican leaders. "The old leaven of opposition," Norton groaned, remained entrenched in Virginia. "The children of those who had broken down the 'carved work' of the sanctuary, 'with axes and hammers,'" also seized with "unprincipled greediness," on Episcopal glebes "and other temporal possessions." Many of those who dispossessed the church, Norton warned, "had grown up in the faith" but had been "warped by the" Jeffersonian and extreme Republican "prejudices, of their fathers."

Jefferson's personal war against churchly authority and the proposition that religious institutions could bind consciences—which he viewed as innately tyrannical—led him to attack the idea of divine inspiration. He famously wrote The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, popularly called the Jefferson Bible, and also admonished friends and family concerning the necessity of reading the Bible skeptically. "Those facts in the Bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces."9 Readers needed to "recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from god" and "examine upon what evidences his pretensions are found, and whether that evidence is so strong as that its falsehood would be more probable than a change in the laws of nature in the case he relates." Jefferson proposed that the Bible should read like the histories of Livy or Tacitus. While the proposition of reading sacred texts historically did not entail a rejection of Christian metaphysics or traditional Protestant understandings of the ties between explicitly Christian morality and the maintenance of the civil and social orders, it did lead him to see the maintenance of orthodox Christianity as adiaphora. If Jesus wasn't God, he told his nephew, it was hardly something that should bother anyone. There were, he said, plenty of other enticements to virtue.10

The question of virtue in society motivated Early Republic clerics and politicians to see Jefferson's expression of the church and state settlement as atheistic and incompatible with traditional Protestant understandings of a rightly ordered society. Federalist newspapers, politicians, and divines denounced Jefferson as an infidel and anti-Christian throughout the 1790s, and the attacks increased as Jefferson's election became more likely in 1800. Evidence that Jefferson's religious views were public knowledge and not at all hidden was found in the breathless editorials of Federalist newspapers.11 After relaying Jefferson's sentiments on religion in Notes on the State of Virginia, The American Aurora warned that Jefferson was an avowed enemy of "all religious establishments."12 Given this information, the Aurora demanded to know who among its readers "will now give his vote for this audacious howling atheist."

The threat to society from atheism served as a chief theme in sermons for Timothy Dwight IV (1752–1817).13 He served as a Congregationalist minister and then president of Yale College for twenty-two years, until his death in 1817, at which point his legacy seemed complete. Born into one of Massachusetts's and New England's leading families, Dwight's vocation as a Congregationalist minister followed family tradition. In 1777 Dwight joined the Continental Army as a chaplain and proved to be popular, with soldiers and his superiors commending him in their reports. After the war, he married the daughter of one of New York's most prominent bankers. Although joined to his home region's elites through family ties and marriage, Dwight's conservatism meant that he did not see the new-fangled ideas of the late eighteenth century as beneficial for society or virtuous. He deplored the growth of religious skepticism, and he warned his students about it regularly. Dwight's 1785 epic poem The Conquest of Canaan cast the North American republic in the role of the people of Israel conquering a pagan continent and subduing pagan peoples. In Dwight's framing, the American republic, like Israel, could not ignore the divinity without consequences.14

Atheism represented not merely a spiritual threat to the American republic, according to Dwight. It also threatened the social and cultural life of the new American Union as well. In good Puritan fashion, Dwight believed that the story of human history was a battle between good and evil. Humans might be on the side of good—God; Jehovah; Yahweh; the Abrahamic deity and his subordinates—or they could ally with the forces of evil. God sometimes picked particular peoples to accomplish his will, and Dwight believed that Puritan New Englanders were in fact God's chosen people. Ernest Lee Tuveson noted that for Dwight, the experience of the first divinely chosen people—the ancient Hebrews—necessarily became the model for Israel's successors.15 The Conquest of Canaan relied on biblical motifs, but their purpose was not sentimental or even merely spiritual. They were a blueprint for cultural, political, and social action in the newly independent United States. Dwight, noted Tuveson, "interspersed a number of parallels between biblical figures and their counterparts, American soldiers who fell in defense of liberty." God had "given the land—a continent—to the new republic as he did the promised land to the Israelites of old." Early National New Englanders affirmed Dwight's poetic assertion that God had given them "the fair empire of the promis'd land," where they had been ordained by heaven to "hold the sacred sway." The Puritan commonwealth given by God, and now part of the United States, was not to be a languid one. God demanded, in Dwight's word, the "voice" of the chosen people, and his expectations animated laypeople to bring about God's kingdom in their new republic.16

Dwight argued that an atheistic society could not functionally achieve either spiritual or temporal benefits for itself. He argued in one sermon that "the consequences of these doctrines, or of Atheism generally, are in the text declared in these words, They are corrupt; they have done abominable works: there is none that doeth good."17 Dwight fundamentally believed that "Atheists are corrupt; they do abominable works: there is none of them that doeth good." The character of Atheists, "seen by the Psalmist, and declared by the Spirit of God, three thousand years ago, has not changed for the better, at any period, down to the present day." Atheists, warned Dwight had always been corrupt. "They have ever done abominable works; there has never been among them a single good or virtuous man." As far as Dwight was concerned, skepticism over the existence of God undermined New England's self-conception as God's chosen people, and the fundamental cultural, social, and political structures in human history. Humans necessarily needed a divine order and purpose. Subordinating themselves to the perceived demands of the Christian God allowed humanity to achieve humanity's natural ends, which Calvinist New Englanders found in the Westminster Catechism: to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Toleration of atheism obliterated this mission for Early National New Englanders.

In Early National New England, the charge of atheism not only called into question a man's moral or social standing. It implied a measure of seditious behavior as well. De facto religious politics dominated New England after the promulgation of the United States Constitution in 1788, and State churches remained untouched by the disestablishmentarian trends emanating from Virginia. Connecticut ministers, for instance, touted the essential tie between church and state during the early years of the new American republic. The chief minister of Hartford's First Congregational church told his parishioners that civil and ecclesiastical institutions were not independent of each other. Elizur Goodrich (1761–1849), a divine from Durham, noted to congregants that the magistracy and ministry had different but not opposite ends: "They mutually assist each other, and ultimately center in the same point. The one has for its object the promotion of religion and the cause of Christ; the other aims immediately at the peace and order of mankind."18 The perceived essential ties between promoting religion, the cause of Christ, and the peace and order of mankind did not escape the Federalist-dominated state legislature of Connecticut. Federalists' strength in New England and their affiliation with state-sponsored religion against Jefferson's disestablishmentarians meant that constituencies for disestablishmentarian politics in New England, and Connecticut and Massachusetts especially, were poorly organized and weaker than they were in the Mid-Atlantic and southern states. Connecticut and Yale College saw little reason to change the centuries-old religious settlement. The number of religious dissenters—particularly Baptists—grew in the final decade of the eighteenth century and the opening decade of the nineteenth, but Robert Imholt rightly observes that "belief that Protestant Christianity underlay Connecticut law, politics, and society remained strong."

By necessity, state churches relied on politics for their maintenance. In the Early Republic, the Federalist Party's conservatism on church and state meant that almost by necessity, establishmentarians were politically partisan. Establishmentarian Congregationalists like Dwight publicly and vocally supported the Federalist Party and publicly denounced Jefferson's Republicans. Jefferson himself increasingly appeared as a dangerous radical to Federalists and in particular New Englanders. In 1797, Philip Mazzei (1730–1815), a Florentine merchant and doctor who lived in Virginia in the 1780s, gave pieces of his correspondence with Jefferson to a Parisian newspaper. The letters confirmed the suspicions of New Englanders like Dwight who believed that Jefferson was an irreligious skeptic who had been radicalized by godless French philosophers during his time as the American minister in France. In the letter Jefferson called the Federalist administration of George Washington and the Federalist-controlled Congress and courts "Anglican, monarchical, and aristocratic."19 Federalists, said Jefferson, preferred the calm of despotism to what he called the "boisterous sea of liberty."20 Jefferson routinely associated anti-democratic and religious politics with despotism, and in many ways saw churchly or institutional religion as the first cause of tyranny. Brooke Allen argues in Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers that Jefferson saw Christian ministers as his chief enemy, especially as the election of 1800 approached. When Jefferson "swore upon the altar of God eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man," he was, according to Allen, striking out against the tyranny not of "political tyrants but of religious ones, not of kings but of ambitious clergymen jockeying for power."21

Jefferson's skepticism had a distinctively anti-churchly tone. Protestant ministers interested in politics, and especially those interested in Federalist politics, he called "'the genus irritable vatum,' who are all in arms against me."22 And so they were. Timothy Dwight told a Connecticut senator that unless politicians and ministers worked together to stop Jefferson's election, they would "lose the only and certainly best, opportunity of securing public safety. The introduction of Mr. Jefferson will ruin the republic."23 A New York Presbyterian opined that that the election of Jefferson represented the "deliberate surrender of the cause of Jesus Christ" in the United States." The ministers' fears were not, however, the dreads of partisan hacks fearful of losing power. They saw Christianity as underpinning the societal order and providing purpose for human existence. Christianity's place in culture and society meant it needed a place in law and politics as well. Jedediah Morse (1761–1826), the father of Samuel Morse of Morse code fame, preached a sermon in 1799 noting that it was to "the kindly influence of Christianity" that Americans owed "that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness" which the United States enjoyed as the new century dawned.24 Morse, who spent much of his career defending orthodox Congregationalist Calvinism from the rising tide of Unitarianism in New England, warned that "all efforts to destroy the Foundation of our holy religion, ultimately tend to the subversion also of our political freedom and happiness." Whenever and wherever "pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican form of government, and all the blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

Undeterred by clerical opponents, Jefferson claimed to Benjamin Rush (1746–1813), one of his fellow Founding Fathers, that he hoped his views on religion would please "the rational Christian or Deist; & would reconcile many to a character they have too hastily rejected."25 Rational Christianity he left undefined, but associating it with deism meant that hard metaphysical commitments to the Christian creeds over and against the ideas of the Enlightenment would preclude someone from being truly rational. The excesses of the French Revolution, he groaned, had stalled the progress of humanity away from medieval superstitions and "had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity thro' the US." Jefferson's complaint that partisan clergy were the only devotees of historic Christianity's place in the cultural, social, and political life of the American republic was overstated. Patrick Henry (1736–1799), Jefferson's predecessor as governor of Virginia and a committed proponent of Jefferson's own ideological commitments, nonetheless balked at Jefferson's deism, which Henry saw as synonymous with irreligiosity. Henry had during the 1780s praised the writings of Thomas Paine, but by 1796 the former had become so horrified by the anti-religious violence of the French Revolution and Paine's intellectual role in sowing the seeds of the Terror that he broke irrevocably with Paine, Jefferson, and even the Republican Party. Thomas S. Kidd noted that by the end of Henry's political life, the Virginian believed that "Paine's writings and Jefferson's well-known skepticism" challenged the United States' "spiritual foundations."26 Henry saw that Americans "could no longer take their religious heritage for granted." He "feared that without fidelity to long-established religious precepts, the United States would spin apart in an atheistic whirlwind, just like Revolutionary France."

Fears that Jefferson might inaugurate an anti-religious order that unmoored republican society's moral and religious foundations were not merely a Federalist fever dream. They were shared by Virginians like Henry who shared some of Jefferson's deepest Republican commitments as well. Jefferson had told Benjamin Rush that "the Episcopalians & Congregationalists" were especially troublesome for their lingering establishmentarian beliefs on church and state in 1800, but during and after his presidency he included Presbyterians—none of whom in Virginia supported the erection of state churches—in his list of problematic and invasive religious groups.27 Jefferson's claims that his disestablishmentarianism rested on an absolute commitment to the rights of conscience seem less convincing when coupled with his obvious dislike for organized Christianity.

The extent to which Jefferson disliked churchly or creedal Christianity was already well-known in 1800, albeit largely by means of rumor—as noted, although relatively candid in private, Jefferson reined in his skepticism in public. After his presidency Jefferson wrote more candidly about his own beliefs, but even his actions during his political career indicate a relatively enduring dislike of doctrines such as the Trinity. Jefferson's deism—which appeared to have solidified into Unitarianism as he grew older—rejected the Trinity vehemently. He viewed the doctrine as the source of religious intolerance. The belief that God was one person and that Christ was not divine had been, he argued, the belief of the primitive Christian Church. The "unity of the supreme being" was not, he raged, "ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government wielded at the will of the fanatic Athanasius."28 Jefferson called the Athanasian Creed a "hocus-pocus phantasm of a god like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads" which "had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs." The strongest proof of what Jefferson called the "the solidity of the primitive faith" was its restoration "as soon as a nation arises which vindicates to itself the freedom of religious opinion, and its eternal divorce from the civil authority." For Jefferson, the American religious settlement was not simply a soil in which Unitarianism was permitted to grow, but itself the fruit that proved the truth of Unitarianism. Disestablishment's naturally corollary was the growth of Unitarianism and a rejection of the Christian Trinity. This was hardly a view shared by his enthusiastic Baptist and Presbyterian supporters, but they eventually learned that the third president held it deeply, much to their surprise and chagrin—particularly when Jefferson began picking potential faculty members for the University of Virginia.

Evangelicals should not have been too surprised at Jefferson's views on religion. As early as the mid-1780s, in his Notes on the State of Virginia, he famously argued that "it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."29 Jefferson's deism and deism in general was not libertarian, operating in harmony with historic Christianity or other traditional religions. It was programmatically committed to replacing historic Protestantism in American society. Elihu Palmer (1764–1806), a Jefferson devotee, authored Principles of Nature; or, a Development of the Moral Causes of Happiness and Misery among the Human Species, in which he argued that deism represented the final development in human intellectual, religious, and political freedom. Palmer argued that Luther, Calvin, and the other magisterial Reformers "were at least as superstitious, fanatical, and narrow-minded as the Catholic church from which they separated." Religious groups committed to rationality and reason threw off the old superstitions. Christopher Grasso notes that Palmer saw the destruction of Protestantism as a metaphysical necessity: "Arminians cast off Calvinism and restored the importance of human agency; Arians and Socinians moved toward a more realistic understanding of Jesus; and universalists abandoned limited atonement and endless punishment."30 Rejecting Protestant religiosity and the historic political and social commitments built on Protestantism was not incidental to deism; it was part of a broader project to remake society. Deists hoped to "spread enlightened philosophy through print," encourage "people to use their reason," urge skepticism "about the claims of revealed religion," and place "faith, politics, and knowledge on natural, rational foundations."31 They wedded this to distinctly political aims. Deists and their allies fought "for republican liberty and equality, at the ballot box or with a sword if necessary."

Deist Reformers "like Palmer and his friend Thomas Paine tried to combine a skeptical critique of revealed religion (especially Christianity) with a program for a simplified, liberated religion of reason and nature."32 Paine's ubiquity within radical causes during the Federalist years of the 1790s, and Jefferson's association with Paine, showed religious Americans, and not just Federalists, that Jefferson did in fact represent a threat to religion in the new American republic. While Federalists might have overstated the degree to which Jefferson could make immediate changes to the American order, they were not wrong to perceive in Jefferson a greater enemy to churchly religion than Jefferson's partisans admitted him to be. Nor were the Federalists a niche group of New England reactionaries. William Linn (1752–1808), a Calvinist minister from Northern Ireland who served as the House of Representatives Chaplain, sneered and pantomimed Jefferson. "Let my neighbor once persuade himself there is not God and he will soon pick my pocket, and break not only my leg but my neck."33

The election of Thomas Jefferson in 1800 renewed attention to the question of church and state relations in the Early Republic. Jefferson's 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association gave the American republic's political lexicon the phrase "separation of church and state," but that term was not analogous to the constitutional settlement on disestablishment, which was more narrowly limited to precluding a federally sponsored national religious establishment—an equivalent of the Church of England, for instance. A year after Jefferson's correspondence with the Connecticut Baptists, a pamphlet appeared, curiously entitled Two Sons of Oil. The book-length essay's name came from two oil-anointed offices inferred from the biblical book of Zechariah: civil minister and religious minister. The author, Samuel B. Wylie (1773–1852), was a Reformed Presbyterian—popularly termed "Covenanters," from their theocratic Scottish predecessors—minister and professor at the University of Pennsylvania. He opened a debate on the "Constitution's compatibility with Christianity and the proper bounds of religious uniformity in the newly founded republic."34 More importantly, the presence of divines like Wylie in prominent churches and universities—he pastored a church in Philadelphia for half a century, and taught and then served as Provost at the University of Pennsylvania for two decades—challenged "certain 'Christian' understandings of early America and the Constitution." Wylie's public debate with William Findley (c.1741–1821), himself a descendant of Scottish Covenanters, also posed problems "for attempts at a coherent theory of secularity, natural law, and the common good in our own day."

Wylie could be both a convinced "theocrat" as well as a convinced believer in disestablishment. While he never countenanced sedition or even a change to the republic's fundamental laws broadly, Wylie argued that he (and any Covenanter) could not support the United States because, among other things, the federal constitution did not explicitly recognize the existence of God, and because the United States sanctioned slavery.35

Beginning with the 1800 presidential campaign, religious observers and writers worried about the rise of public irreligiosity associated with the personal and political beliefs of Thomas Jefferson. Linn went so far as to warn Christians against voting for Jefferson, a warning "founded singly upon his disbelief of the Holy Scriptures; or, in other words, his rejection of the Christian Religion and open profession of Deism."36 Theodore Dwight (1764–1846), the brother of Yale president Timothy Dwight IV, saw a dark post-Jefferson regime "governed by blockheads and knaves," where "ties of marriage with all its felicities" were "severed and destroyed," and where "your wives and daughters are thrown into the stews; our children are cast into the world from the breast and forgotten."37 In a United States ruled by Jefferson's Republicans, "filial piety is extinguished, and our surnames, the only mark of distinction among families, are abolished. Can the imagination paint anything more dreadful on this side of hell?"

Although Linn and Dwight did not share Wylie's Covenanter political theology, they shared a belief that Jefferson's rhetoric and politics represented a departure from the religious politics of his two Federalist predecessors. Historiographic assumptions regarding a secular founding understandably focus on Jefferson, but neither the Constitution, nor prominent clerics and intellectuals at the beginning of the nineteenth century assumed a state-enforced secular republic. In fact, they assumed that the United States' republican social and civil framework, along with the states' institutional frameworks, relied on public Christianity. Washington was comfortable with religion in political life, and even Madison, the most convinced of disestablishmentarians, worked to create federal chaplaincies for the Senate, House, and other federal institutions.

Scholars devoted to the idea of a secular founding argue, like Steven K. Green in Inventing a Christian America, that a Christianized American republic was a creation of religious activists. "The myth of America's religious origins arose incrementally, not as a comprehensive account, over a forty-year period, roughly from 1800 to 1840"—so says Green.38 Green does not deny the presence of Christian influence in the Founding Era altogether, but he wrongly relegates Christian influence to a fringe minority: "A handful of people during the founding period, orthodox clergy in particular…never abandoned their belief in an active superintending providence or their willingness to think in biblical types." That Wylie's work elicited a response from a sitting congressman, and that it went through several editions, indicated that his message appealed to more than a mere political or social fringe, and his status as a professor at an elite university meant that his intellectual credentials were secure.

Wylie's, Dwight's, and Linn's responses to Jefferson's accession create a problem for Green's secular thesis, however. Wylie and his brethren were not trying to contrive a story of a Christian America. Instead, they were trying to preserve one, fighting a rear-guard action against the beginnings of a new regime wherein the United States' religious roots were reimagined as playing a negligible role in its creation. 1800 more properly saw the invention of a secular America, not a Christian one. There was no need to invent an explicitly Christian founding, largely because the Christian socio-civil foundation of the republic was already largely assumed. Claims that Virginia's disestablishment and that state's particular brand of irreligious and even secular politics informed the Constitutional era have been, as Mark David Hall rightly notes, massively overstated.39

The Covenanter theology that underpinned Wylie's arguments was never supported by a majority of American statesmen in the Founding Era or Early Republic, nor did even a sizable plurality of American citizens worship in Presbyterian or Reformed churches. Nonetheless, the perception that Jefferson was enforcing secularism on a Christian socio-civil milieu created the circumstances whereby political theology was rightly understood not as a reactionary response to the Republican administration but as an intellectual and political pursuit that had long defined Colonial North America and the Early National United States. The incompatibility of Covenanter theocracy, specifically, with the longue duree of colonial and subsequently Constitutional practice in the United States did not mean accepting the invention of a secular Founding.

Most Protestants in the first decade of the nineteenth century did not affirm the idiosyncratic church and state doctrines of the Covenanters, but neither did they believe that disestablishment removed the church from the social or civil order. Likewise, Early Republic Protestants assumed that the church was a merely spiritual institution that was not affected by social and political changes. Presbyterian minister and King's College—now Columbia University—professor John McKnight (1754–1823), like most Presbyterians in the United States at the beginning of the nineteenth century, celebrated disestablishment as a definitive corrective of an unnatural misalliance that began with Constantine. Constantinian establishmentarianism was a "heterogeneous and incestuous connection between the kingdoms of this world, and the kingdom of Christ; which, from the reign of Constantine, down to the present day," had been "the source of incalculable mischief, both to the interests of true religion, and the civil and religious rights of man."40 Disestablishment renounced that connection. Church and state in the new American order each rested "on their own proper foundation," and exercised, "respectively, their particular and appropriate rights and prerogatives."

In McKnight's reckoning, disestablishment benefited church and state because it made their respective duties and limits clear. Disestablishment did not, however, disconnect them in their mutual goal to preserving human liberty and ordering human life. Governments, after all, cannot be separated from the societies they govern. There was, McKnight argued, a "close and intimate connection subsisting between" civil society and the church.41 That connection between them rendered a right understanding of their association necessary for the protection for the liberty of both. "Civil and religious liberty, though distinct, in themselves, will generally be enjoyed or lost together. The same enlarged views, and the same liberal sentiments" that tended "to secure the one, will equally tend to the promotion and establishment of the other." The same spirit "of domination and lust of power, which aims at enslaving the bodies, will equally aim at enslaving the minds and consciences of men." Communities religious and civil, "or bodies politic, will always be prosperous and happy, in proportion to the religion and virtue which they possess."

Although disestablishment removed churches from the state's sphere of control, it did not disconnect churches from society or the state entirely. Churches were affected by the same forces that influenced broader society. Disestablishment of church from the institutional civil government did not entail disconnection from the influences that affected both. The push for a more complete separation came from Jeffersonian Deists and Baptists. John Leland (1754–1841), a prominent New England Baptist and Jeffersonian partisan, saw Jefferson as a hero for finally finishing off Protestantism's—and Christianity's—original sin of Constantinian accommodation: "That the Christian world has been in a gross error, from the days of Constantine to the present time, admits of no doubt," claimed Leland.42 "From that period down, the Christian religion has been an institute of state policy, regulated by the laws of men, and supported by the sword of the magistrate." Protestantism, whatever its benefits, had not addressed the great sin of historical Christianity: religious establishments. "Whether in a papal or protestant mode, the principle has done incalculable mischief, and drenched the earth in blood," said Leland. Leland foreshadowed the utopian claims of the nineteenth century by asserting that America would escape history and inaugurate a new era of not only political, but also Christian history. "In the United States," Leland exclaimed, "the felonious principle has been apprehended, tried, condemned and executed." Baptist Roger Williams (c.1603–1683) and Quaker William Penn (1644–1718) "first attacked the villain, and Thomas Jefferson did more than any one man to bring him to the stake." Leland warned that "some few roots of this principle are yet in the soil of Massachusetts, interwoven in the constitution and laws of the state; but the spirit of the people triumphs over those evil roots." Leland placed his hopes for a disestablishmentarian order in populist democracy. There were, he noted, "but few places in the state where the people would succumb to a legal distraint for religious uses."

Baptists needed disestablishment to mean more than merely disestablishing the Anglican Church. They needed to defang the socio-religious order that regarded their emotionally-charged worship as unusual at best and heretical at worst. Leland recorded happenings at Baptist tent revivals along the James River in the summer of 1785. "At Associations, and great meetings," he saw souls awakened, in his words, "who afterwards give clear, rational accounts of a divine change of heart."43 Certain exercises—typically physical convulsions often resulting in the new convert falling to the ground and writhing uncontrollably—"were not confined to the newly convicted, and newly converted, but persons who have been professors a number of years." These converts and enthused believers "at such lively meetings, not only jump up, strike their hands together, and shout aloud, but will embrace one another, and fall to the floor." Leland had "never known the rules of decency broken so far as for persons of different sexes, thus to embrace and fall at meetings." He admitted that these apparently spiritual confirmations of revivalist preaching were not "seen in all parts of the state, at times when God is working on the minds of the people." Instead, "under the preaching of the same man, in different neighborhoods and counties, the same work, in substance, has different exterior effects." Baptist flirtation with revivalism often drew the ire of public authorities. What Baptists defended as religious freedom, states prosecuted as public disorder. This did not stem from states' commitments to lingering Anglican political theology. Even in disestablished Virginia, a majority of people in the Commonwealth viewed Baptists and Methodists with suspicion. Christine Leigh Heyrman observed in her book Southern Cross: The Beginnings of the Bible Belt that "obnoxious as Baptists and Methodists were to many members of the Anglican gentry, many white southerners of lesser means liked these religious upstarts no better. White middling farmers might not have wanted to maintain the church of England institutionally, but that did not mean they embraced a socio-religious order committed to en masse religious freedom."44 It was not, Heyrman argued, "only members of the gentry or Anglican clergymen who violently opposed early evangelicals." When a Baptist minister was arrested in the 1770s, locals gathered in significant numbers to harangue him. When Baptists tried to preach in jail cells, townspeople disrupted that too.

A wholesale remaking of society, and not merely disestablishment, was the goal of Early Republic Baptists. Leland's Jeffersonianism and disestablishmentarian intellectual framework, Mark Noll notes, "clearly distinguished between political and religious spheres of life."45 The Baptist minister "was a determined foe of all hierarchies—social, commercial, medical, and legal, as well as clerical—and of every effort to coerce the conscience." Leland campaigned against the Christian and Protestant past and urged that individuals, according to Nathan O. Hatch, "free themselves of natural authorities: church, state, college, seminary, even family."46 Hatch rightly noted that Leland "carried the ideological leverage of evangelical urgency and Jeffersonian promise." Most importantly for the relationship of religion to society broadly, Leland "proclaimed a divine economy that was atomistic and competitive rather than wholistic and hierarchical." Leland combined religion and politics even as he ostensibly tried to separate them. He proselytized citizens with a kind of "liberal individualism" which "could be easily embraced at the grass roots." Ordinary Americans "gladly championed the promise of personal autonomy as a message they could understand and a cause to which they could subscribe—in God's name no less."

The election of 1800 definitively turned the telos of federal politics against traditional Protestant conceptions of church and state. And yet that did not mean a majority of Americans supported the Jeffersonian conception of church and state. New England Federalists remained intransigent. So too were intellectuals in Early National colleges and churches. The court system of the United States, filled with southern and northern Federalists appointed by Washington and Adams, also pushed against the rising tide of religious de-institutionalization. Throughout the first half of the nineteenth century, intellectual, religious, and judicial elites remained committed to older Protestant understandings of church and state whereby two separate institutions worked hand in hand to maintain the civil and social orders. The bulwark they created proved surprisingly resilient. Jeffersonian separationism was not de facto disposition of society in the Early Republic. As late as 1839, John L. O'Sullivan (1813–1895), a Democratic editor, argued that Americans who continued to "venerate the rubbish, the prejudices, the superstitions of other times and other lands, the theocracy of priests, the divine right of kings, the aristocracy of blood, the metaphysics of colleges, the irrational stuff of law libraries" would eventually be overawed by "the mighty impulse of the age;" and "carried onward by the increasing tide of progress."47 Forces of tradition like the old socio-civil conceptions of the Reformation would not, he hoped, withstand "the glorious movement of the masses." Like John Leland, O'Sullivan hoped to eventually to sweep away the hierarchies and institutions of old. But "the retrograde tendencies of our laws, our judicature, our colleges, our literature" stood in the way. From the election of Jefferson onward, historic Protestant legal frameworks in state laws, judges, colleges and universities, and the burgeoning American literati all upheld Protestantism's fundamental place in American culture, politics, and society, whether Jefferson liked it or not.
 
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Matthew, the “higher powers . . . rulers” of Romans 13 — the civil magistrates in Paul’s day — referred to the pagan higher powers, such as the Caesars and rulers of other nations, none of whom had the competence to be “a keeper of both tables of the law.” Their competence was in maintaining civil order and protecting their people. Engelsma comments: There is a mandate to civil government in the New Testament. Repeatedly, the New Testament charges civil government with a vitally important duty. It charges every civil government with this duty.” He goes into this in-depth, both historically and Scripturally.

You are not interacting with what I wrote. Good and evil is the criterion Paul lays down. The law of God determines good and evil. What other source of morality is there? God alone is good. Paul doesn't restrict good and evil to a sphere where religion does not operate. The idea was unheard of in his time and you will not find it anywhere in the New Testament. The Roman Caesar determined religious controversies. Both Jesus and Paul submitted to the power of Rome in this area as a God-given authority.

According to Prof. Engelsma the magistrate is not a keeper of either table of the law. He does not believe the ten commandments are given to all men. He is basically a civil antinomian.

Historically, he completely misunderstands the establishment principle. At no point did the reformers maintain promoting the gospel by the sword. He has confused civil and ecclesiastical power. He has also made the State inherently evil with his argument that the State is God's unwilling servant. This would mean that no Christian could serve the State because it would entail unwilling service. This is Anabaptist to the core. The Bible commands rulers to serve the Lord with fear.

Nor is he any better biblically with his denial of Christ's Mediatorial Lordship. He basically ties Christ's hands from actively governing the nations according to His preceptive will. He only allows a decretive will to operate with respect to the State. He complains against tyranny but he effectively creates the perfect conditions within which tyranny might rise and rule. He has made the State unaccountable to Christ.
 
You are not interacting with what I wrote. Good and evil is the criterion Paul lays down. The law of God determines good and evil. What other source of morality is there? God alone is good. Paul doesn't restrict good and evil to a sphere where religion does not operate. The idea was unheard of in his time and you will not find it anywhere in the New Testament. The Roman Caesar determined religious controversies. Both Jesus and Paul submitted to the power of Rome in this area as a God-given authority.

According to Prof. Engelsma the magistrate is not a keeper of either table of the law. He does not believe the ten commandments are given to all men. He is basically a civil antinomian.

Historically, he completely misunderstands the establishment principle. At no point did the reformers maintain promoting the gospel by the sword. He has confused civil and ecclesiastical power. He has also made the State inherently evil with his argument that the State is God's unwilling servant. This would mean that no Christian could serve the State because it would entail unwilling service. This is Anabaptist to the core. The Bible commands rulers to serve the Lord with fear.

Nor is he any better biblically with his denial of Christ's Mediatorial Lordship. He basically ties Christ's hands from actively governing the nations according to His preceptive will. He only allows a decretive will to operate with respect to the State. He complains against tyranny but he effectively creates the perfect conditions within which tyranny might rise and rule. He has made the State unaccountable to Christ.
It might be beneficial at this point to deal with the assumptions and presuppositions that ultimately underly this argument re: the superiority and desirability of democratic governance. This is a fundamental underlying presupposition to American Presbyterianism. It ultimately devolves to where should power lie, or how the magistrates should exercise authority and power.
 
It might be beneficial at this point to deal with the assumptions and presuppositions that ultimately underly this argument re: the superiority and desirability of democratic governance. This is a fundamental underlying presupposition to American Presbyterianism. It ultimately devolves to where should power lie, or how the magistrates should exercise authority and power.

Yes; and presumably American Presbyterians have left the first two sections of the Confession untouched.
 
"In fact, it is not difficult to imagine North, De Mar, Gentry, and the other disciples of Rushdoony stoning to death, among all the others, the few remaining uncompromising Reformed amillennialists as blasphemers."

On this particular point, it is worth noting that Gary North expressly criticised R. J. Rushdoony for claiming that amillennialism was blasphemous.

Screenshot 2024-08-23 01.01.45.png
Gary North, Leviticus: An Economic Commentary (Tyler TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1994), p. 371n.
 
The below is from Religion and Republic. It articulates how State Establishment and National Disestablishment functioned in the nation's early years. It demonstrates how a populace can function as a Christian society (and even advocate for the restriction of certain religious expressions) without insisting upon National Establishment. Some wanted a purely secular Republic, but this was (as seen) not universal:
Wow Rich I'm getting this book.
 
The below is from Religion and Republic. It articulates how State Establishment and National Disestablishment functioned in the nation's early years. It demonstrates how a populace can function as a Christian society (and even advocate for the restriction of certain religious expressions) without insisting upon National Establishment. Some wanted a purely secular Republic, but this was (as seen) not universal:

I just read a few reviews and will aim to to acquire and read it. Does he mention anything about the States? I recall an old Evangelical Alliance article in the 19th century discussing the freedom of the States to make an establishment even though they went the other way. At that time it was posited that Mexico could become part of the federation and have a distinctly Romanist establishment. Secondly, does he attempt to analyse the causes why the "Christian society" kept morphing into new forms of national expression. My thought is that it was owing to the failure to establish a distinct confessional expression of Christianity.
 
You are not interacting with what I wrote. Good and evil is the criterion Paul lays down. The law of God determines good and evil. What other source of morality is there? God alone is good.

Dear @Jerusalem Blade – You know what I think. In this and similar discussions, all systems that allow for some autonomy for at least some men always seem rather long, convoluted[1], complicated, vague, and just hard to follow–at least for me. However, the way @MW explains it is short, simple, and matter-of-fact so that even a child could understand it. I understand it.

The truth has a ring to it that James speaks of. Just listen to the verse I have in mind. James 3:17; "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." Isn't that the beauty of Jesus' words?

Let me state my take on MW's explanation as simply, as gently and easily to be intreated as I can.

God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy. (WCF 5.1) Nothing in all Creation has in itself the property of self-existence but is maintained moment by moment in its very being by the will and pleasure of this One God.

If even a single electron at the edge of space were out of sync with the absolute will of God, it would destroy the very idea of God–and this could never be.

Skipping for brevity, the role, duty, and privilege of those ministers of the Gospel appointed in the Church, God has also appointed ministers in the civil realm whose duty it is to enforce the whole moral law, which is one only. There are not two or more moralities any more than there are two or more Gods, which is illogical, absurd and therefore impossible. History is moving increasingly in this direction and will inevitably, infallibly, reach the goal God has planned.
~~~~~~~

As I reread what I tried to say, I am quite dissatisfied with much of it. But I will post it anyway, hoping it might spur your thinking toward a bigger view of the One True God.

[1] CONVOLUTED adj. Rolled together, or one part on another, as the sides or margins of nascent leaves in plants or as the petals and stigmas in Crocus.​
Webster's Dictionary 1828
 
I just read a few reviews and will aim to to acquire and read it. Does he mention anything about the States? I recall an old Evangelical Alliance article in the 19th century discussing the freedom of the States to make an establishment even though they went the other way. At that time it was posited that Mexico could become part of the federation and have a distinctly Romanist establishment. Secondly, does he attempt to analyse the causes why the "Christian society" kept morphing into new forms of national expression. My thought is that it was owing to the failure to establish a distinct confessional expression of Christianity.
If you read my extended quote, he talks about how the States had established religions (even Erastian in some States) but the National government was not.

His book ends at the Civil War. It's pretty much the rise of Darwinian, Higher Criticism, and the Social Gospel that lead to the breakup. There was also a strain of cults and other independent movements throughout the States. In the cited portion, you can see that Baptist were always against Establishment and I think that's in no small measure to how they were treated by Anglicans.
 
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