The Music of Hillsong

[Carl Copsey]

I understand the thinking process in Reformed circles when considering the bands members, the Hillsong church and it's "theology" (word used lightly!) I know what MacArthur (and others) have to say. And I am certainly not disputing their arguments. In fact, I share those same opinions with MacArthur and others regarding this band.

But what do you think about listening to some of their music? As a means of worship and such. Knowing what you know and believe about them and you are educated in all that and wouldn't be 'influenced' in their circles...do you believe (or think) it wise to listen to them for your own personal taste? Even Philips, Craig and Dean for example?

Any thoughts?

 

[Matthew1344]

I have the same conversation with my friends. They also throe in bethel and elevation. They say it's ok.

I don't have the best arguments for them. My conscience just doesn't want them on my phone and on the radio.

Here are the reasons why:
1) there are better songs our there woth substance and doctrine that I would prefer to listen to
2) I don't want to encourage other people into their music that will then lead to hearing their preaching. I don't want to preface myself all the time "I like the music but not the preaching". Then spend 5 mins on why I just said that statement. So I just stay clear of it.

But this is where my friends get me, and I really am torn and don't know...

Our church sings their music all the time. My friends ask me if I join. I telling them I am.torn on that one. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I dont. It just depends on what's going through my head at the moment.

I am glad you asked this question. Thanks Carl.

 

[Gforce9]

Carl,
As you indicated, there is bad theology and good theology mixed in Hillsong (and almost all others) music. As I write this, I'm listening to the Crabb Family singing the best rendition of "My Redeemer Lives" I've ever heard.....by a long shot. They are fantastic singers......the understand how to "sell" a song when most others in the industry have no clue at all. I am not unaware of either the shortcomings of Jason Crabb's theology or that of the original author of the song.
There is precious little out there with flawless/near flawless theology. Think of how many "Christian" songs talk about God speaking apart from His word, personal prophet/prophetess stuff or has the Immutable undergoing mutation? It's staggering, really.
Without giving these folks or their music a free pass, I can take the good and leave the bad. In spite of the health/wealth aspect of the singers, I can thoughtfully engage knowing that "My Redeemer Lives". I'm fairly confident Mr. Crabb nor anyone on TBN could articulate the passive or active aspects of Christ's obedience nor have a sound biblical definition of justification or have any idea what that means, however.
To Matt's dilemma, which is pertinent to the discussion; his friends have a good case. The formal worship of our God is a different matter. There are issues with which his and many other churches will have to contend and answer to God. I would add, in many hymn-singing congregations, Wesley's "And Can It Be" is sung. There is much in that song to be criticized. He has the Immutable undergoing change in that one and his logic in theology is very inconsistent.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I like a big range of music but I think it's not good if meat gets bumped out for dessert or junk food all the time. Keep a healthy mix
The surgeon general advises to eat a variety of foods. ( and you don't get sustenance from junk foods )

I would listen to lots of things but be discerning. I do appreciate the sound and feel of Mt Crabb's music on TBN but music should be more and challenge both mind and emotions not just emotions. I like allot of Phillips Craig and Dean. I like lots of 3rd day or the Martins... TBN will have some worshipful music sometimes and they had a thanksgiving special that had some pretty good music. Hour of power will sometimes great music as well (not the strongest sermons though) As far as engaging the mind and challenging theology... not so much and too often eccentric ideas... So I would say a person who can listen and be discerning... fine... a new Christian should be encouraged to be intentional about adding things like the Getty's music or some other more consistently theologically strong choices. Other strong choices I like include Jimmy Needham, Douglas Bond and Matt Foreman's songs

Music should engage lots of things. Scripture memory. Challenging thoughtful theology. Emotions. One song won't do all but a variety is ok. Both old style and contemporary music can lapse into not allot more than emotionalism and a type of nostalgia if too discerning about it. Engaging emotions is good if combined with engaging the mind. People should train their senses to also enjoy deeper lyrics like form Horatio Bonar or John Newton but a mixture of songs if fine.

 

[Matthew1344]

Jimmy needham!!!

 

[whirlingmerc]

Yep, Jimmy Needham https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZWkNBtqTGg How great thou art

and a list of all his songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK4jdexjgz4&list=PLE1E2C513C9AD06A0

 

[Matthew1344]

One of my personal favorites is forgiven and loved

 

[Eoghan]

I wrestle with this problem when I listen to Bob Dylan's Christian album knowing he is back with kabbala Judaism(?) I also love the depth of Don Francisco but am very aware he flirted (flirts?) with the charismatic movement. I choose his albums and really appreciate much of his music.

Funilly enough I was wondering on the way home if I could get away with playing Christmas hymns at school. The problem is one of the "best" choirs is ... ...the Mormon Tabernacle Choir!

 

[KeithW]

Carl, I think what you are asking two things. 1) Is it OK to be discerning in the songs we listen to and sing? 2) Are the sometimes things which would disqualify an artist as someone we should no longer listen to?

I can only offer an opinion to the first part. I think it is good to be discerning about the words we sing. We should already be discerning about the preachers we listen to and the books we read. But those can be far easier to discern because they typically fall into denominational and doctrinal lines. But songs we do not put into those categories, or exercise the same discernment with. Many people simply go with how a song makes them feel or like how a melody (not the lyrics) sound. And if a song contains the label "Christian" then someone else has already placed the Biblical stamp of approval on it. Or at least that seems to be the default belief the average person has.

For over 20 years of my Christian faith I've been paying attention to the words of songs. This can cause a problem if you want to sing songs which contain words of praise to Jesus Christ, "worship" songs, but the church you go to might only sing a couple of songs like that per year. Somehow the simple fact that a song is sung in a church seems to incorrectly add all sorts of Christian meaning which the words of a song do not convey.

Remember, songs are always written to convey a message, especially a feeling or an emotion. And every song is catechizing you. It is implanting an idea in you.

 

[Matthew1344]

So if your church sings songs that came from a hillsong, bethel, elevation, Phillips C & D, what do ya do?

 

[Gforce9]

So if your church sings songs that came from a hillsong, bethel, elevation, Phillips C & D, what do ya do?

Just a simple layman's opinion here......
Your ruling officers are held responsible to God for the decisions made regarding worship. Unless your conscience, held captive by the word of God, can no longer bear what's happening, submit to your rulers and pray for wisdom on their part. My guess is that no one sees any problem with the present course, so there is no solution in the works.
As a Reformed man, I see the wisdom and rightness of those precious doctrines our forbearers articulated from Scripture; the RPW and the full import of the 2nd C. As a Presbyterian, the roles and offices are well defined as is the way of appeal if I see something drastically wrong.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Cat Stevens did a very nice version of 'Morning is broken' but I believe he was a Muslim. But he didn't write the words he got them from an ancient hymn

I would listen to a wider range of music to listen to personally than I would favor in Church, where the bar is higher because one of the purposes of the music in church is part of teaching. I also prefer a blended collection of music from all ages including well written contemporary but that will also depend on the mix of people in the church. Some people can't read music. Some people love to read music and use hymn books.

 

[nick]

So if your church sings songs that came from a hillsong, bethel, elevation, Phillips C & D, what do ya do?

That music was created to backup the theology being taught from the pulpit of Hillsong, not the theology of some other pulpit. People underestimate the power of music. They think they (their children and all others in the church) can navigate bad theology just like them. When I was at my New Calvinist Baptist Church with a very prominent celebrity pastor, we sang these songs along with others. That church and it's leadership have slowly become more and more liberal.

Please consider watching this documentary over music (specifically covers secular music, but the truths presented should help you make a better decision about these things (Part 8 covers typical responses to music, if that's all you have time to watch, but the full 8 parts really do a good job of us understanding music from a Christian perspective.)

Perhaps you could make a recommendation to sing a psalm during the service from time-to-time. Absolutely no conscience issues there, because the theology is from the mouth of God. It might not be much, but it might be something. (I'm an exclusive psalm singer, but that's not what I'm asking you to try and pull off. The hope is to get the Word of God up against these shallow and manipulative "worship" songs, perhaps helping the people get a better level of discernment.)

Layman's

*And you have to consider the money being fed back into that heretical machine by making more people lovers of their music.*

 

[Rom]

The easiest way in which heretics/"non-Orthodox" gain access to the church is through the praise that is sung.

People who would not have access to the church's pulpits, preaching, or confessions of faith, readily have access to God's People each and every week through praise that is sung. Remember, the very words of Scripture, says that we teach and admonish through what we sing, see Col 3:16.

Men (and women) who would not qualify to be teachers in Christ's Church (particularly in a Reformed Church) do so through the songs that are sung. Something worthy of much meditation.

Wesleys, Watts, Hillsong, etc. We should consider who it is that has penned the words that are put in our lips, if they are not Orthodox or Heterodox, etc. Could they be ordained in your denomination? Even lower standard: would they qualify to even be a member of your church, could they take the covenant vows?

I'd second Nick's suggestion - if you remove Hillsong from your repertoire, perhaps replace them with something safe ... like the words of God Himself, before you try to find a different substitute, all the while God has given you a treasure trove that you could spend a lifetime indulging and glorying in without exhaustion.

 

[jambo]

When Spurgeon was compiling his own hymn book, he included each hymn according to its own merits. If the hymn was of sound theology then he would include it regardless of whether he agreed with its author or not, hence his inclusion of one by Cardinal Newman.

I would follow the same principle. If the hymn/chorus is sound, then it doesn't bother me who wrote it.

 

[whirlingmerc]

not the same thing.... but I would have loved to be there when Michael Card sang 'what and I doing here' in Utah for the Mormons when Ravi Zacharias spoke on the exclusivity of Christ for them The only evangelical they previously invited was Dwight Moody many years before

 

[Hamalas]

Just listen to Andrew Peterson instead. Better music, and better theology.

 

[Andres]

So if your church sings songs that came from a hillsong, bethel, elevation, Phillips C & D, what do ya do?

Leave that church.

 

[nick]

When Spurgeon was compiling his own hymn book, he included each hymn according to its own merits. If the hymn was of sound theology then he would include it regardless of whether he agreed with its author or not, hence his inclusion of one by Cardinal Newman.

I would follow the same principle. If the hymn/chorus is sound, then it doesn't bother me who wrote it.

Did Spurgeon have to pay fees for the inclusion of that song by Cardinal Newman? Do you think that would have played a factor into his decision if he did? Legally Hillsong is suppose to be paid when a song is performed at a church, so even if you choose the two or three songs you are (currently) comfortable singing, you would still be paying into that ministry to create the other bad theology songs.

From experience, I know my old church performing Hillsong music not only led to many people in the church buying the CD's not realizing some songs they didn't agree with (myself included), they also go in droves to the concerts when they come in town.

 

[Matthew1344]

So if your church sings songs that came from a hillsong, bethel, elevation, Phillips C & D, what do ya do?

Leave that church.

Really??? Ha. that simple for you, huh?

 

[Rom]

So if your church sings songs that came from a hillsong, bethel, elevation, Phillips C & D, what do ya do?

Leave that church.

Really??? Ha. that simple for you, huh?

Dear brother, there are several of us who have had to make that very decision. Myself included.

It may not be that simple when it comes to our feelings, and the sorrow we feel when leaving dear saints that we love, ministers who are dear to us, etc.

But we have found that we must do as our conscience dictates, insofar as our conscience is conformant to the Word of God.

As an aside, the quote you have chosen to showcase by Luther in your signature is an interesting one in the context of this particular discussion.

 

[Gforce9]

So if your church sings songs that came from a hillsong, bethel, elevation, Phillips C & D, what do ya do?

Leave that church.

Really??? Ha. that simple for you, huh?

Dear brother, there are several of us who have had to make that very decision. Myself included.

It may not be that simple when it comes to our feelings, and the sorrow we feel when leaving dear saints that we love, ministers who are dear to us, etc.

But we have found that we must do as our conscience dictates, insofar as our conscience is conformant to the Word of God.

As an aside, the quote you have chosen to showcase by Luther in your signature is an interesting one in the context of this particular discussion.

This is what my conscience required of me about two years ago. I went from playing screaming guitar leads on Sunday morning (with the same music in question) to conscience bound inside of a year or so. It may end up being the best spiritual decision I have ever made......

 

[MW]

But what do you think about listening to some of their music? As a means of worship and such.

Listening to music is neither worship nor a means of worship. The Scripture calls for the singing of God's praise; there is no call to listen to others sing His praises.

Once it is understood this is not worship, the question becomes, Why would anyone willingly give themselves to listen to error? or, Why would one be entertained by it?

 

[Matthew1344]

Thanks for your comment Kodos. I'm just trying to figure out the logic.

If the song says "in the darkness God's light shines. Christ forever glorified." Those are biblical words. By hillsong, unbiblical teachers.

So if the author of somethin that is designed to be used for worship is unbiblical, then don't participate with it?

What about church buildings? I'm sure that most church buildings that are made to give shelter to the redeemed as they bring praises to God were built by unbiblical people. If that's the case, do you not attend that building?

This might be apples and oranges. I'm not the best at debating.

But I do see the tension. I feel it. I personally wish we woildnt sing hillsong, elevation, or others like that, simply because in fear people will get swallowed up in their teaching.

Just trying to figure this out. And I really appreciate all of your input. Especially of people that have thought this through before.

Yall are a big help.

 

[DMcFadden]

Music issues again? It is good that we are in the Christmas season with accurate gems like these:

1. It Came Upon The Midnight Clear
2. We Three Kings
3. Do You Hear What I Hear?
4. And, one of my favs . . . Away In A Manger

BTW, can somebody explain to me how "I saw three sailing ships" even "works" with a landlocked Bethlehem?

Oh well. Pa rum pum pum pum.

 

[Rom]

Thanks for your comment Kodos. I'm just trying to figure out the logic.
If the song says "in the darkness God's light shines. Christ forever glorified." Those are biblical words. By hillsong, unbiblical teachers.
So if the author of somethin that is designed to be used for worship is unbiblical, then don't participate with it?
What about church buildings? I'm sure that most church buildings that are made to give shelter to the redeemed as they bring praises to God were built by unbiblical people. If that's the case, do you not attend that building?
This might be apples and oranges. I'm not the best at debating.
But I do see the tension. I feel it. I personally wish we woildnt sing hillsong, elevation, or others like that, simply because in fear people will get swallowed up in their teaching.
Just trying to figure this out. And I really appreciate all of your input. Especially of people that have thought this through before.
Yall are a big help.

Matthew,
You are right to sense that this is an apples and oranges discussion. For instance, in the Westminster Confession of Faith, we see articulated the ordinary elements of worship (WCF 21.5):
"The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear, (Acts 15:21, Rev. 1:3) the sound preaching (2 Tim. 4:2) and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence, (James 1:22, Acts 10:33, Matt. 13:19, Heb. 4:2, Isa. 66:2) singing of psalms with grace in the heart; (Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19, 13, James 5:13) as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God..."

Those are the elements of Worship. Notice, that the singing of psalms is an element of worship, along with preaching, the sacraments, prayer, and reading of the Scriptures.
This is to be contrasted with a circumstance of worship, which is not an actual element of Worship, but is circumstantial to it.

See WCF 1.6:
"...that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed."

So the building we gather in is a circumstance of Worship. It could be an open field, it could be under a thatched roof, etc. Same with the time we meet for worship, it should be considered with prudence and wisdom. It would be strange in our culture to meet at 2am for worship, for instance. In the persecuted Church, it might be required for a 2am gathering. Circumstantial.

As for what goes into the mouth of the Lord's People, I have a more Regulated view on Worship than you might, as I see only warrant for the Psalms as being fit for the lips of God's People. That is my stance, and I do not feel it necessary to defend other applications of the Regulative Principle. Others may want to defend hymns in comparison to Hillsong, etc. and they can help you in that regard. But in my view, it is improper to sing anything but out of the Psalter in Worship, so that greatly simplifies and eliminates the problem posed in this thread.

In my view I see that God has provided the Remedy for this problem where man has to determine what to sing to Him. It is my hope that as others see the mischief that has resulted in worship, that they too will be drawn by the Spirit back to His Songs which are gloriously Triune. Songs all about the Son of David, penned by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and addressing our Father in Heaven.

As for your questions and thinking these things through - never stop asking these sorts of questions, brother - they are good and proper!

 

[Matthew1344]

Thank you kodos. I appreciate your input and fellowship.

 

[whirlingmerc]

can somebody explain to me how "I saw three sailing ships" even "works" with a landlocked Bethlehem?
.

My guess is this is an anachronistic song about ships coming back to a sea port to enjoy holiday... but that's a guess


( ... The Psalms say there is a river that makes glad the city of God and technically there is not a physical river in Jerusalem
but maybe meaning spiritual... )

 

[Jake]

( ... The Psalms say there is a river that makes glad the city of God and technically there is not a physical river in Jerusalem
but maybe meaning spiritual... )

I don't know much about Jerusalem's geography, and surely there is a spiritual meaning as well, but Gill on Psalm 46:4 notes a couple of possibilities:

"There is a river,.... The allusion is either to the river Kidron, which ran by Jerusalem; or to the waters of Shiloah, which by different courses and branches, ran through the city of Jerusalem, and supplied the several parts of it with water, to the joy and comfort of its inhabitants"

 

[Andres]

So if your church sings songs that came from a hillsong, bethel, elevation, Phillips C & D, what do ya do?

Leave that church.

Really??? Ha. that simple for you, huh?

I didn't mean to come across as snarky in my reply; I really was just being succinct. My apologies if I offended in any manner. I'm speaking from my own convictions, to which I fully understand that God may not have brought others to those same convictions yet. I speak (try to) from a position of humility because I have a background where I came out of a Pentecostal church that sang Hillsong songs - and worse - with the full-fledged praise band, etc. I am thankful unto God for graciously bringing me out of that type of church and praise because I now see how damaging it is but even more so how sinful it is in worship. With that said, that's the reasoning for my short answer that I could not in good-conscience worship in a church that sang Hillsongs and other happy-clappy praise songs. I couldn't even visit one of those churches, let alone be a member there. Again, I realize that God may not have brought everyone to that place yet, but I pray He does.