kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Or soon will be...I was just curious what everyone thought. Do you think there are genuine believers within the RCC? Saved in SPITE of the teachings of the church?
The Pope is Dead...
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BobVigneault
Bawberator
I for one believe there are true believers in our apostate mother church. God keeps a remnant everywere.
heartoflesh
Puritan Board Junior
Here I thought this was an April Fools prank.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
I will shed no tears for the death of Antichrist, but yes, I do believe that there are some in the RCC who are saved despite the teachings of the church.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Yes, that's my thought too. It's shocking, though, how offended some Presbyterians (!) can get at the observation that the RCC is apostate. I have a few like that here.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
I've often wondered if the identification of the Pope with anti-Christ was the result of good exegesis or of 16th century Reformed polemics.
But, like you, I won't be shedding any tears.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Very nice to meet you too, sir!
Yes, I wonder about the next Pope too and what that will mean for the world.
Praise God that he is Lord over all things and will destroy Antichrist with the brightness of his coming.
doulosChristou
Puritan Board Freshman
Good exegesis. Turretin's exegesis here is particularly precise. However, the identification of the Pope with anti-Christ predates the 16th Century (the Albigenses, Cathars, Waldenses, Arnoldists, Henricians, Patarene, Dante Alghieri, John Wycliff, John Huss, Savonarola), was affirmed in the 16th century to be sure (Luther, Melancthon, Zwingli, Calvin, Beza, Bucer, Knox, Ferrar, Hooper, Latimer, Ridley, Cranmer, Ussher, Firth, Barnes, Philpot, Becon, Turner, Cartwright, Barrow, Jewel, Coverdale, Lord Cobham, Hooker, Ainsworth, Dent, Foxe, Fulke, Bradford, Bullinger, Rogers, Hutchinson, Whitgift, Drake), and continued (& continues) to be affirmed by many godly exegetes long after the 16th century (KJV translators, WCF authors, 1689 LBCF authors, Matthew Henry, John Owen, John Bunyan, Thomas Manton, Thomas Brooks, Augustus Toplady, Richard Sibbs, Thomas Goodwin, William Perkins, Jeremiah Burroughs, Isaac Newton, Jonathan Edwards, Robert Candlish, J.A. Wylie, John Gill, George Whitefield, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Hudson Taylor, J. C. Ryle, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Ian Paisley, Richard Bennett).
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
That's a lot of names and an impressive list to be sure...but what evidence is cited? I'm not trying to be argumentive. I'm still in the process of recallibrating my eschatology!
The Pope is not the only Antichrist As John tells us (I Jn. 2:18) there are always many antichrists. The cults and their founders and leaders, many leaders of the charismatic movement, the liberals, and all who deny the truth, are to one degree or another representatives of Antichrist. They show themselves to be "against Christ" when they contradict the doctrines of the Trinity, of the deity of Christ, of blood atonement, and when they claim for themselves power and position in the church that belongs only to Christ.
We must not, then, be so taken up with the idea that the Pope is Antichrist that we do not notice the evil work and influence of all these other antichrists, who do the same things and have the same destructive influence in the church. Rev. Ronald Hanko
We must not, then, be so taken up with the idea that the Pope is Antichrist that we do not notice the evil work and influence of all these other antichrists, who do the same things and have the same destructive influence in the church. Rev. Ronald Hanko
doulosChristou
Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by kevin.carroll
That's a lot of names and an impressive list to be sure...but what evidence is cited? I'm not trying to be argumentive. I'm still in the process of recallibrating my eschatology!
Yes, it's an impressive enough a list that the doctrine must not be dismissed out of hand without devoting ourselves to as much study of it as these men. I suggest beginning with "Whether It Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome Is the Antichrist" from Francis Turretin's 7th Disputation on the Antichrist. Be a good Berean and test his exegesis from Scripture. As far as I know, Turretin has never been answered. It is the best work on the subject that I have read. Secondarily, you should also read J. A. Wylie's excellent The Papacy is the Antichrist. For a couple modern treatments online, you can read Bennett and Paisley here:
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/antichrist_unveiled.htm
http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp
BobVigneault
Bawberator
And now he's alive again, OH NO! He's Nicholas Carpathia!!!!!!!
tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
Didn't the pope get raptured in one of the Left Behind books?
Richard King
Puritan Board Senior
I fond it frustrating this morning to hear the TODAY show report that ...'CHRISTIANS everywhere are anxiously awaiting news regarding the Pope's health.' Is it possible they don't know he doesn't represent (ALL) Christians?
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Well, technically Richard, does the pope represent ANY Christians at all?
That's definitely the exact references I've been looking for for months! Thank you very very much doulosChristou!
My VERY first time to identify all old age leaders who declared that the Pope(s) is the Anti-Christ. I could tell you that these refereces will only appear in the fundamentalistic churches in Hong Kong. Only the fundamentals, or the "fundies" as the liberals usually label, still think Catholicism is a heresy. More and more evangelical churches are either accepting the Catholic church, even cooperating with them, or being more and more theologically friendly to Catholicism. There are still a number of evangelical churches know that Catholicism got many problems, but not many. There are absolutely very very few evangelical churches in Hong Kong know of those old age leaders and their declarations. The identification of the Pope with Anti-Christ is basically viewed as a BIG JOKE in most Hong Kong churches.
Brothers in the west, please pray for Hong Kong churches.
Hey VirginiaHuguenot, don't sir me, coz I'm just a kid, much younger than you. I guess you are nearly 40, correct?
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Three clerics were asked the following question:
When you are in your casket, and friends and family and are mourning over you, what would you most like to hear them say?
Episcopal Priest: "I would like to hear them say that I was a wonderful husband, a fine spiritual leader, and a great family man."
Catholic Priest: "I would like to hear them say that I was an excellent teacher and a servant of God who made a huge difference in peoples' lives."
Rabbi: "I would like to hear them say, 'Look, he's moving.'"
When you are in your casket, and friends and family and are mourning over you, what would you most like to hear them say?
Episcopal Priest: "I would like to hear them say that I was a wonderful husband, a fine spiritual leader, and a great family man."
Catholic Priest: "I would like to hear them say that I was an excellent teacher and a servant of God who made a huge difference in peoples' lives."
Rabbi: "I would like to hear them say, 'Look, he's moving.'"
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I just thought of something I had never realized before. Let us assume that the Pope will try to establish a religious UN. People--mainly hyper-Dispensationalists--often harp on this saying, "One world bank, one world government, one world army, one world religion." Of course, the reference they have in mind is some form of the Tower of Babel. however, they draw precisely the opposite conclusion from what the text says. They think that a singular, antichristiian movement will arise that most Christians will be helpless to stop. However, God made it clear that he will destroy/frustrate any attempt like this. Just some thoughts...
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Sorry, I didn't realize you were a young un'! I'm starting to feel old here...Thank you for the encouragement to pray for our brethren in Hong Kong. Will do!
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Originally posted by The Lamb
Did everyone miss my question?
What definition of Anti Christ are we using here? What sayest the scriptures in regards to what an antichrist exactly is?
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The Pope claims to be Head of the Church, and assumes for himself divine attributes. He sits in the house of God (which he has turned into Babylon) but exalts himself against God. Antichrist is not merely an unbeliever who does these things. He is the leader of apostate Christianity. And here I speak not just of one man but of the office of the Papacy. For generations and centuries the Head of Rome has claimed all authority over matters spiritual and temporal on earth and as the Westminster Confession says, he is that man of sin, that man of perdition, spoken of in the Scriptures.
There are other Scriptural passages that speak of Antichrist. Some of them are addressed here:
Ian Paisley defines AntiChrist
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
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