The Pope is Dead...

[doulosChristou]

I saw on the news that the Pope will be extravagantly burried inside three coffins. I was wondering if anyone knew the significance of this? I know that the triple-crown worn by the Pope symbolizes his claim of being the sovereign of heaven, earth, and the underworld. I was curious if the triple coffin was similar.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by doulosChristou
I saw on the news that the Pope will be extravagantly burried inside three coffins. I was wondering if anyone knew the significance of this? I know that the triple-crown worn by the Pope symbolizes his claim of being the sovereign of heaven, earth, and the underworld. I was curious if the triple coffin was similar.

There is some symbolic significance, according to this article:

Even to this day, three coffins are used. The first, made of cypress, like Paul VI's, is to signify that even the popes are human and are buried like common men. The second, of lead, bears the name of the pontiff, the dates of his pontificate, and copies of the documents of profound importance issued under his seal. The broken seal of office is placed within the lead coffin by the Camerlengo prior to final closure. Finally, the third coffin, made of elm, the most precious of local woods available in Rome, is used to signify the great dignity of the man being laid to his rest. Thanks to this ancient custom, many early documents of the Church have been conserved.

Source: http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/papal-funeral.asp

When Pope John XXIII was exhumed after 37 years, his triple coffin was a major factor in his 'remarkable' preservation. See this article for further details.

 

[lwadkins]

Wow the intricacy of all this ritual and ceremony. If only they were so precise in their theology!

 

[turmeric]

They are-that's the problem!

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

This article is worth reading. It addresses the Pope's phony 1997 'apology' for the Roman Catholic St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of French Huguenots on August 24, 1572, which killed an estimated 100,000 French Protestants.

 

[lwadkins]

Interesting article Andrew. Notable omission that he (PJP II) didnt mention the role of the Pope in the slaughter.

[Edited on 4-3-2005 by lwadkins]

[Edited on 4-3-2005 by lwadkins]

 

[Ken S.]

it seemed that I was ignored in my last few threads, was it because my English is too bad to understand?

 

[Ken S.]

thanks Andrew, valuable references!

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

You're welcome, Ken.

More info for those who may be interested:

Among students of Papal history, it is well known that there have been not only Popes, but anti-Popes. The Pope/Anti-Pope controversy, however, is not confined to the Middle Ages.

It is noteworthy that today there is a Sedevacantist or traditionalist Catholic movement (ie., adheres to pre-Vatican II dogma) called "True Catholic" which claims the "Holy See" was vacant for 40 years before Pope Pius XIII was elected by a conclave on October 24, 1998. In other words, this group or movement did not recognize the authority of any post-Vatican II Roman pontiff (actually starting with the election of Pope John XXIII in 1958, who was not recognized because he was a Freemason). Thus, Pope Pius XIII has been the head of the Catholic Church since 1998, according to his supporters.

Mel Gibson belongs to the traditionalist pre-Vatican II movement but I don't know his thoughts on the Pope/Anti-Pope controversy.

More on the Anti-Popes

 

[jfschultz]

Originally posted by pastorway
To mark the day the Pope died my wife nad I rented and watched for the first time the movie Luther.

I took a break from watching it and learned that he had died.

For a bit of perspective, before bashing the RCC without mercy, remember the RCC was faithful for several centuries. The PCUSA was faithful for decades and perhaps even a few decades more than a century. From what Fred and others have posted, the PCA is heading off to left field after only 3 decades!

 

[Ken S.]

Originally posted by jfschultz

I took a break from watching it and learned that he had died.

For a bit of perspective, before bashing the RCC without mercy, remember the RCC was faithful for several centuries. The PCUSA was faithful for decades and perhaps even a few decades more than a century. From what Fred and others have posted, the PCA is heading off to left field after only 3 decades!

the RCC was faithful for several centuries?
I think you are referring to the church before at least the 10th century, right?

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by jfschultz

Originally posted by pastorway
To mark the day the Pope died my wife nad I rented and watched for the first time the movie Luther.

I took a break from watching it and learned that he had died.

For a bit of perspective, before bashing the RCC without mercy, remember the RCC was faithful for several centuries. The PCUSA was faithful for decades and perhaps even a few decades more than a century. From what Fred and others have posted, the PCA is heading off to left field after only 3 decades!

John, they have been apostate from their onset. I believe some within the church are not, but the church as a whole has been. It did not take long for this to happen. Read some of ignatious and you shall see. The propagation of the primacy of Peter, and the bishop of rome was a turning away from Christ. Even Augustine held to error as we all do. God has and always will keep a remant according to electing grace. And all the Glory goes to him.


Joseph

 

[turmeric]

John, they have been apostate from their onset... Even Augustine held to error as we all do

Huh? :scratchhead:

[Edited on 4-5-2005 by turmeric]

 

[Me Died Blue]

Joseph, up until the Reformation, Rome was the only established church other than the Orthodox churches. So if they were apostate from near the start as you say, even if there were remnants of individuals, then God's covenant community of a collective, external Church as a whole would have ceased to exist from long before the Reformation, none of the Reformers would have been lawfully ordained, and we would cease to have any true churches today. The historic Reformed position, and the one that does not inevitably lead to such a problem, is that Rome officially denied the Gospel and thus became apostate at the Council of Trent.

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Me Died Blue
Joseph, up until the Reformation, Rome was the only established church other than the Orthodox churches. So if they were apostate from near the start as you say, even if there were remnants of individuals, then God's covenant community of a collective, external Church as a whole would have ceased to exist from long before the Reformation, none of the Reformers would have been lawfully ordained, and we would cease to have any true churches today. The historic Reformed position, and the one that does not inevitably lead to such a problem, is that Rome officially denied the Gospel and thus became apostate at the Council of Trent.

Chris: This really does not equate them being Apostolic in doctrine. Just as Israel is not all of Israel, The RCC remained until God saw fit and was pleased to raise up men to reform it. Perhaps you weight the "Lawful ordination" of ministers as more important than I. God will preserve His own in Christ you know that. TO say we are dependant upon Rome to have a "True Church" based soley on "lawful ordinations" is not entirely correct either. We do not need trent to determine when Rome denied the Gospel. I believe they are part of the apostacy Paul spoke about.

Article 29 sums it up for me in the BC:

The true church can be recognized if it has the following marks: The church engages in the pure preaching of the gospel; it makes use of the pure administration of the sacraments as Christ instituted them; it practices church discipline for correcting faults. In short, it governs itself according to the pure Word of God, rejecting all things contrary to it and holding Jesus Christ as the only Head. By these marks one can be assured of recognizing the true church-- and no one ought to be separated from it.

As for the false church, it assigns more authority to itself and its ordinances than to the Word of God; it does not want to subject itself to the yoke of Christ; it does not administer the sacraments as Christ commanded in his Word; it rather adds to them or subtracts from them as it pleases; it bases itself on men, more than on Jesus Christ; it persecutes those who live holy lives according to the Word of God and who rebuke it for its faults, greed, and idolatry.


In His Grace


Joseph

[Edited on 4-5-2005 by The Lamb]

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by turmeric

John, they have been apostate from their onset... Even Augustine held to error as we all do

Huh? :scratchhead:

[Edited on 4-5-2005 by turmeric]

WHy do you sound confused?

Augustine with his platonic influence did hold to some error. Why else would he write his recantations?

 

[kevin.carroll]

Hmmm, this may get posted twice. My browser crashed. If so, I apologize. I said:

I've never been militantly anto-Catholic. This is probably due more to my general ignorance of RCC doctrine and my evangelical uprbrining than anything. Let's face it, evangelicals are fairly conciliatory towards Rome.

But what I have seen this week on TV has REVOLTED me. To actually see people bowing down to a corpse! Hello??? First Commandment? Second Commandment??? This isn't even Christian, it is positively pagan.

 

[BobVigneault]

Bowing down to a corpse is just the beginning. You are going to start hearing about miracles all over the world because someone prayed to JP 2 for healing. This is part of his beatification process. It's already happening. I've heard media folks compare him to Jesus. Keep in mind that anti-Christ does not mean against Christ, it means the replacement or representative-instead-of or substitute.

The Prayer of Jabez showed us how superstitious Christendom is. The Purpose Driven Life demonstrated our shallowness. The death of JP 2 the Great is going to usher in a massive new paradigm for post modern religious fervor. The church will now finish creating God in our image and form a global religion just as JP 2 is being described as 'the global pope'.

I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Ken S.]

Originally posted by maxdetail
Bowing down to a corpse is just the beginning. You are going to start hearing about miracles all over the world because someone prayed to JP 2 for healing. This is part of his beatification process. It's already happening. I've heard media folks compare him to Jesus. Keep in mind that anti-Christ does not mean against Christ, it means the replacement or representative-instead-of or substitute.

The Prayer of Jabez showed us how superstitious Christendom is. The Purpose Driven Life demonstrated our shallowness. The death of JP 2 the Great is going to usher in a massive new paradigm for post modern religious fervor. The church will now finish creating God in our image and form a global religion just as JP 2 is being described as 'the global pope'.

I hope I'm wrong.

Inspiring indeed!!!!
I would love to hear you elaberate the idea with more words. Let's say, 7oo to 1000 words? Really look forward to reading more of your sharings on the matter

 

[Ken S.]

Originally posted by kevin.carroll
Hmmm, this may get posted twice. My browser crashed. If so, I apologize. I said:

I've never been militantly anto-Catholic. This is probably due more to my general ignorance of RCC doctrine and my evangelical uprbrining than anything. Let's face it, evangelicals are fairly conciliatory towards Rome.

But what I have seen this week on TV has REVOLTED me. To actually see people bowing down to a corpse! Hello??? First Commandment? Second Commandment??? This isn't even Christian, it is positively pagan.

bowing down to a corpse? Is there any links where I can see protestants bowing down to his corpse?

 

[kevin.carroll]

Originally posted by Ken S.
bowing down to a corpse? Is there any links where I can see protestants bowing down to his corpse?

I don't know if Protestants are doing though I find it highly unlikely. Just turn on Fox News. The have been the All Pope All the Time Network since last week.

 

[Scott]

Chris: This really does not equate them being Apostolic in doctrine. Just as Israel is not all of Israel, The RCC remained until God saw fit and was pleased to raise up men to reform it. Perhaps you weight the "Lawful ordination" of ministers as more important than I. God will preserve His own in Christ you know that. TO say we are dependant upon Rome to have a "True Church" based soley on "lawful ordinations" is not entirely correct either. We do not need trent to determine when Rome denied the Gospel.

I don't think that Chris is saying that having lawfully ordained ministers is a mark of a true church, just a precondition for licit ministerial activity. A church can be a true church and not have lawfully called or ordained ministers. With the exception of extraordinary calls to office, such as those reveived by the apostles directly from Christ Himself, ministers today ordinarily receive lawful calls through the visible established Church in procedures outlined in the Bible. With certain exceptions, a call's lawfulness depends in part on working through the established Church. At the time of the first reformers this was Rome.

A body can be a true church without having lawfully called ministers (think of a lawful presbyterian church with a vacancy in the pulpit, for example). It is just that they have a vacancy in the minsterial office or the ministers are illicitly installed or ordained (think independency). The issue of whether a body is a true church is related but separate.

The first reformers defended the lawfulness of their calls typically on one of two grounds, (1) prior ordination in Rome or (2) unavoidable emergency. They did not see reordination as required, at least not until Trent. See this defense by the great Francis Turretin for an example:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/FrancisTurretin/francisturretincallingreformers.htm

The webmaster, Matt, is doing his dissertation on this topic and it sounds very promising.

Scott

 

[The Lamb]

Originally posted by Scott

Chris: This really does not equate them being Apostolic in doctrine. Just as Israel is not all of Israel, The RCC remained until God saw fit and was pleased to raise up men to reform it. Perhaps you weight the "Lawful ordination" of ministers as more important than I. God will preserve His own in Christ you know that. TO say we are dependant upon Rome to have a "True Church" based soley on "lawful ordinations" is not entirely correct either. We do not need trent to determine when Rome denied the Gospel.

I don't think that Chris is saying that having lawfully ordained ministers is a mark of a true church, just a precondition for licit ministerial activity. A church can be a true church and not have lawfully called or ordained ministers. With the exception of extraordinary calls to office, such as those reveived by the apostles directly from Christ Himself, ministers today ordinarily receive lawful calls through the visible established Church in procedures outlined in the Bible. With certain exceptions, a call's lawfulness depends in part on working through the established Church. At the time of the first reformers this was Rome.

A body can be a true church without having lawfully called ministers (think of a lawful presbyterian church with a vacancy in the pulpit, for example). It is just that they have a vacancy in the minsterial office or the ministers are illicitly installed or ordained (think independency). The issue of whether a body is a true church is related but separate.

The first reformers defended the lawfulness of their calls typically on one of two grounds, (1) prior ordination in Rome or (2) unavoidable emergency. They did not see reordination as required, at least not until Trent.

Scott

Scott: i do not intend to digress this thread. The original comment I made was that Rome was apostate way prior to trent. And this cannot be denied.

Chris denies this because of "lawful ordinations?" Well That is where I beg to differ. This has nothing to do with Romes Apostacy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Licit, illicit, lawful, unlawful, these terms have not a thing to do with Romes false Gospel propagated all the way back.. Tertullian Montanism, Justinian free will, Ignatious and primacy of Peter?

Rome did not become apostate at trent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why did Luther want to reform? I will never credit the RCC having anything to do with preserving the Gospel of Christ. And "ordination" should NEVER be elevated close to the Sovereign Grace Gospel of truth. Not even close



Joseph

 

[BobVigneault]

"Friday's eclipse will last from a few minutes to over an hour, depending on one's location. In much of the continental United States, people will see what looks like the moon taking a bite out of the sun, with the bite bigger over the South."

So the sky will darken Friday for the pope's funeral. Now that is just TOO weird! Please, Hal Lindsay, help us through this!

 

[Arch2k]

Originally posted by maxdetail
"Friday's eclipse will last from a few minutes to over an hour, depending on one's location. In much of the continental United States, people will see what looks like the moon taking a bite out of the sun, with the bite bigger over the South."

So the sky will darken Friday for the pope's funeral. Now that is just TOO weird! Please, Hal Lindsay, help us through this!

Now don't be gettin' all dispensational on us!!

 

[Scott]

"The original comment I made was that Rome was apostate way prior to trent. And this cannot be denied."

The way the Reformers viewed it is that error was endemic but not complete or official. There were good people in the church. Indeed, Luther's own teaching on justification is consistent with some other teachings at his time. With Trent the Roman Church, as a church, officially and formally embraced heretical error. So, Rome was a true Church until Trent. That, at least, is how many reformers saw it.

BTW, if you want to see how far a church can go astray and remain a true church, read through 1 Corthinthians. We see that many had denied the resurrection, a man openly took his father's wife and others praised him for it, etc. Calvin and others used this epistle to show how debased a church could be and still remain a true church.

[Edited on 4-6-2005 by Scott]

 

[Ken S.]

Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, thank you for your brave move in article "The Pope is in Hell", I've just shared it with my other Chinese brothers. With these messages, it helps to prevent the protestants in China's network from being brain washed.

 

[Scott]

Ken: What are Proetstant / Catholic relations like in China?

 

[lwadkins]

Photo of three U.S. presidents with the pope's remains.


http://www.drudgereport.com/

 

[turmeric]

The Catholic Church was not apostate from its beginning as Augustine, Anselm, Bishop Bradwardine & Gottschalk illustrate. If you say they were subject to error as we all are, that sounds a lot less serious than apostate - at least I hope so, since we're all subject to it. The Catholic Church did become apostate early on, I agree. Even in Augustine's time, and earlie, there was much that was unscriptural in its practice & doctrine.