Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
I hope his funderal dont last forever like Reagens swear I never thought they would burry the man.
blade
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The Pope is Dead...
- Thread starter kevin.carroll
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
It is odd that you mention that. I remember what I was doing that day. I finished Luther's Bondage of the Will. Hmmmmm?
Reformingstudent
Puritan Board Junior
Curious to know if those who hold the office or title of the Pope feel more of God's devine wrath in hell when they die more than others do. Funny how so many "Christians" like Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe and a bunch of others praise this man of sin as if he truly was Christ Himself.
Luk 6:26 Woe to you when all men shall speak well of you! For so their fathers did to the false prophets.
Luk 16:15b For that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Let the the world run after it's idols and false god's, we who have been Redeemed and know the truth can rejoice in the knowledge that our God reins.
Psa 2:6 Yea, I have set My king on My holy hill, on Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree of Jehovah. He has said to Me, You are My Son; today I have begotten You.
Psa 2:8 Ask of Me, and I shall give the nations for Your inheritance; and the uttermost parts of the earth for Your possession.
Psa 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 And now be wise, O kings; be instructed, O judges of the earth.
Psa 2:11 Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled in but a little time. Blessed are all who put their trust in Him.
Reformingstudent
Puritan Board Junior
Big Amen to that.
I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is.
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
bleh...............
blade [/quote]
I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is. [/quote]
I cant help wonder how much better of they would be if the just put Christ on the pedestal instead of the Pope, mary, Saints etc.
I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is.
[/quote]I cant help wonder how much better of they would be if the just put Christ on the pedestal instead of the Pope, mary, Saints etc.
lwadkins
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Keylife_fan
I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is.
Yes and this is the same media who couldn't wait to jump on the Pope and the Catholic church at every opportunity...
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Originally posted by lwadkins
Originally posted by Keylife_fan
I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is.
Yes and this is the same media who couldn't wait to jump on the Pope and the Catholic church at every opportunity...
The media are always pontificating, but nowawdays it has extra meaning.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Originally posted by The Lamb
Did everyone miss my question?
What definition of Anti Christ are we using here? What sayest the scriptures in regards to what an antichrist exactly is?
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The Pope claims to be Head of the Church, and assumes for himself divine attributes. He sits in the house of God (which he has turned into Babylon) but exalts himself against God. Antichrist is not merely an unbeliever who does these things. He is the leader of apostate Christianity. And here I speak not just of one man but of the office of the Papacy. For generations and centuries the Head of Rome has claimed all authority over matters spiritual and temporal on earth and as the Westminster Confession says, he is that man of sin, that man of perdition, spoken of in the Scriptures.
There are other Scriptural passages that speak of Antichrist. Some of them are addressed here:
Ian Paisley defines AntiChrist
I did not realize this was the Reformed position. I looked up the passage you cited in the WCF. While I do not think the proof texts they chose are compelling, Shaw's exposition on the Standards was very enlightening.
:::sigh::: I envy all of you who were raised Reformed. I feel like every time I have a handle on things I run into another area I have not thought about. I must admit, I wear the moniker "Reformed" VERY humbly.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Keylife_fan
Big Amen to that.
I'm already tired of seeing on the news how 'Great" a man JPll is/was and how he ended comunisim in eastern europe. Of course Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher had little to do with that. Turn on the TV and on almost every news show there's a priest giving his view of how wonderful holy fadder is.
Well at least it is giving us relief from 24/7 Terry Schiavo and/or Michael Jackson coverage.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Originally posted by kevin.carroll
Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot
Originally posted by The Lamb
Did everyone miss my question?
What definition of Anti Christ are we using here? What sayest the scriptures in regards to what an antichrist exactly is?
2 Thess. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The Pope claims to be Head of the Church, and assumes for himself divine attributes. He sits in the house of God (which he has turned into Babylon) but exalts himself against God. Antichrist is not merely an unbeliever who does these things. He is the leader of apostate Christianity. And here I speak not just of one man but of the office of the Papacy. For generations and centuries the Head of Rome has claimed all authority over matters spiritual and temporal on earth and as the Westminster Confession says, he is that man of sin, that man of perdition, spoken of in the Scriptures.
There are other Scriptural passages that speak of Antichrist. Some of them are addressed here:
Ian Paisley defines AntiChrist
I did not realize this was the Reformed position. I looked up the passage you cited in the WCF. While I do not think the proof texts they chose are compelling, Shaw's exposition on the Standards was very enlightening.
:::sigh::: I envy all of you who were raised Reformed. I feel like every time I have a handle on things I run into another area I have not thought about. I must admit, I wear the moniker "Reformed" VERY humbly.
Kevin, I wasn't raised Reformed, I was raised Roman Catholic. But perhaps in God's gracious providence, that opened my eyes to the nature of the Papacy upon my conversion.
The universal testimony of the Reformers, pre-Reformers, Puritans and many others have always been that the Pope is Antichrist. It's not that he is a convenient scapegoat, or that he is only one who persecuted Protestants, it is that he sits in the temple of God and exalts himself against God taking attributes and titles that belong only to the Lord.
As has been mentioned, Wylie's and Turretin's treatises on the Papal Antichrist are both excellent sources for futher study. I would also add F.N. Lee's Antichrist in Scripture, John Bunyan's Of Antichrist, and some of other men cited previously.
Also, here is a list of historic Reformed Creeds/Confessions that identify the Pope as Antichrist:
Ian Paisley's List of Reformed Creeds Which Identify the Pope as Antichrist
Have read all of you's conversations. The references mentioned and scriptural texts quoted for defining anti-Christ are all execellent and so impressive and inspiring. It's only my second time to hear that the identification of the Pope with Anti-Christ is in those historical confessions. I wonder how the liberals and the Reformed in World Council of Churches will react if they see the testimonies made by the confessions !!!! (sometimes I really think those Reformed are crazy). There are much to learn from what you guys have said. Really worth a reading. I wish so much that more Hong Kong protestants or even Catholics will come join this board. Protestants holding views like yours are few in Hong Kong. I just got an idea, why don't you guys go to the Hong Kong network and try to educate them about the true face of the pope? Protestants like me here sometimes get tired to death! People will think you're crazy claiming that the Pope is the Anti-Christ.
Hey VirginiaHuguenot, a bit unbelievable to hear you said you're raised Catholicism. How wonderful it is you've got your eyes opened! You will definitely be a very effective example of flesh to convert the Catholics, like Richard Bennett.
My English still got really much to be improved, hope you all understand what I write.
Hey VirginiaHuguenot, a bit unbelievable to hear you said you're raised Catholicism. How wonderful it is you've got your eyes opened! You will definitely be a very effective example of flesh to convert the Catholics, like Richard Bennett.
My English still got really much to be improved, hope you all understand what I write.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Well, apparently, the Vatican has confirmed the death of Pope John Paul II.
Here is some guidance from Fisher's Catechism, Q. 98 (35) on how to pray concerning the Roman Antichrist:
Here is some guidance from Fisher's Catechism, Q. 98 (35) on how to pray concerning the Roman Antichrist:
Authorised
Puritan Board Freshman
The Pope died a few minutes ago.
So now this thread dies too...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050402/ap_on_re_eu/pope
[Edited on 4-2-2005 by Authorised]
So now this thread dies too...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050402/ap_on_re_eu/pope
[Edited on 4-2-2005 by Authorised]
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Yeah but this aint going to die for like another month 
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
I've been called mean and hateful and offensive for saying anything but "poor pope i love him so much" around others. What is our response, biblically speaking, to people who find anti-papist remarks to be "mean" and "unchristian"?
sometimes the truth hurts!
They can read what John Bunyan had to say about the Pope here: Anti-Christ and His Ruin
Talk about mean!!!
Phillip
They can read what John Bunyan had to say about the Pope here: Anti-Christ and His Ruin
Talk about mean!!!
Phillip
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
That does raise another point, though, and that is how do pastors deal with this issue? I put it this way because pastoral leadership must, biblically, be gentle. We speak the truth in love, not use it as a cudgel to bludgeon our hearers.
I'm up early (OK...it FEELS early) thinking and praying about this. Do I ignore the event? Do I use it as a teaching opportunity?
I'm of in a quandry. Partly, too, the issue here is political. We have a number of converted catholics in our congregation. Unfortunately, this little church has been without a pastor for YEARS. The church has suffered. There has been no teaching, no catechizing...most of the elders have, I suspect, never even read the Confessions! Or if they have, it was when they were kids. I'm working hard...but I almost feel as if this is a missionary plant. We are re-forming a Reformed church!
Ironically, the last pastor got canned over this very issue...of being ant-catholic. He was viewed as mean-spirited. I know this man and the accusations were not without warrant. Nevertheless, the truth must be proclaimed and yet Paul's admonition that the Lord's servant must not be harsh, but a patient teacher rings in my ears...So I'm back to square one. What to do...what to say?
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
First, I think it displays a ridiculously low amount of common sense and propriety to make comments such as "œthe pope is the anti-Christ!" to RCs who are in the midst of their grief. If you have ever grieved then you know that when you´re in that process "“ especially during the initial stages "“ you are just not in the emotional state to tolerate things that you could (or would) normally handle.
Second, I think it is safe, legitimate, and good to acknowledge his death from the pulpit. He was, after all, a very significant person in our world. (Claiming the allegiance of a full 50% of the people who call themselves Christian!) Surely there are those in the congregation who themselves are wondering how they should respond, or what they should say to their RC coworkers, family and/or friends. This is a great opportunity to equip them to lovingly engage those people.
Third, I believe that it is just basic human decency to offer our genuine sympathy and condolences to others who have suffered a real loss and who are really grieving. It is the same sympathy and respect you would want. To be honest, I just don´t comprehend how a person could have that deep a sense of loss over a person whom they never met, but in the final analysis, my lack of comprehension doesn´t matter: they are grieving, and I should be sympathetic to them.
Finally, none of what I have written above implies or necessitates that we eulogize the pope or the Roman Church! I'd just say that NOW isn't the prudent time to point out the errors of Roman Catholicism...
Second, I think it is safe, legitimate, and good to acknowledge his death from the pulpit. He was, after all, a very significant person in our world. (Claiming the allegiance of a full 50% of the people who call themselves Christian!) Surely there are those in the congregation who themselves are wondering how they should respond, or what they should say to their RC coworkers, family and/or friends. This is a great opportunity to equip them to lovingly engage those people.
Third, I believe that it is just basic human decency to offer our genuine sympathy and condolences to others who have suffered a real loss and who are really grieving. It is the same sympathy and respect you would want. To be honest, I just don´t comprehend how a person could have that deep a sense of loss over a person whom they never met, but in the final analysis, my lack of comprehension doesn´t matter: they are grieving, and I should be sympathetic to them.
Finally, none of what I have written above implies or necessitates that we eulogize the pope or the Roman Church! I'd just say that NOW isn't the prudent time to point out the errors of Roman Catholicism...
tfelice
Puritan Board Freshman
You made some good points in your post, however I would have to disagree with this last statement. The papacy is the enemy of the church, in fact its greatest earthly enemy. I do not think that there is ever a time when we should speak softly against Rome.
This week has been a media windfall for Rome. First the Terri Schiavo situation put many Romanist priests on TV as well as other Roman apologists. Then we went right into the death of the Pope coverage.
Has the Protestant position been heard? NO! Why should we sit back quietly as our mortal enemy is lauded with praise and adulation. This is a golden opportunity for us to speak out.
I am formerly a Roman Catholic and nothing sickens me more today then to see the Church of Rome exalted in this manner. Especially, when you see so called "evangelicals" speak on how wonderful this last Pope was for the world.
[Edited on 4-3-2005 by tfelice]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
We are called to pray for the destruction of Antichrist (ie., the Papacy). We are also called to speak the truth in love. There is no conflict between these commands. We must all exercise prudence and good judgment with whom we are speaking. This thread is a conversation between members of the Puritan Board on the occasion of the Pope's death and how we are to understand it. It is not directed towards Catholics although many former Catholics such as myself have opinions to express. As has been pointed out, the Roman Catholic Church has received an enormous amount of publicity in the past few weeks. This thread serves as a very tiny counter point to that message. It is a message of truth. There may be believers in the RCC, but they are there despite the church's teaching, not because of it. We must pray for the deliverance of the world from the errors of Popery. This event in history highlights the need and the spiritual darkness that exists. It is precisely when the Papacy hopes to capitalize upon the mourning of the world for the death of Antichrist that the truth should be voiced by believers.
"If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ.
"Wherever the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that one point."
- Martin Luther
[Edited on 4-3-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
"If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ.
"Wherever the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved and to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that one point."
- Martin Luther
[Edited on 4-3-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
BobVigneault
Bawberator
JP 2 did play a significant role in world politics and should be remembered for that but his death has turned into one long commercial for an apostate church and a deeper burying of the gospel.
I am angry and jealous for how this will continue to blur the truth of justification by faith. Rembering the person is one thing but this is turning into pope worship and idolatry and the promotion of anti-christian dogma.
I like this quote from Reymond's Systematic:
"Rome's exegesis of Matthew 16 and its historically developed dogmatic claim to authoritative primacy in the Christian world simply cannot be demonstrated and sustained from Scripture itself. This claim is surely one of the great hoaxes foisted upon professing Christendom, upon which false base rests the whole papal sacerdotal system."
I am angry and jealous for how this will continue to blur the truth of justification by faith. Rembering the person is one thing but this is turning into pope worship and idolatry and the promotion of anti-christian dogma.
I like this quote from Reymond's Systematic:
"Rome's exegesis of Matthew 16 and its historically developed dogmatic claim to authoritative primacy in the Christian world simply cannot be demonstrated and sustained from Scripture itself. This claim is surely one of the great hoaxes foisted upon professing Christendom, upon which false base rests the whole papal sacerdotal system."
Good point though. But I would even more appreciate those pastors who dare to announce that the Pope is Anti-Christ and thus offends the millions of Catholics and, undoubtfully, a number of protestants during this sensitive moment. The fact is, there are hardly any pastors who got the ball to announce so even in their own protestant churh. I have just made the annoucement on my fellowship's message board right this evening and I'm sure I'll be disliked even more by my fellow so called "brothers and sisters".
I think the problem now isen't that the Pope is being hated or criticized to much but praised and loved to much by even the protestants. Before his death, there had been a pastor here in Hong Kong who kept writing booklets and books reminding protestants that RCC is heresy while at the same time the liberals labeled him the "fundies"(fundamentalist) and the evangelicals said he's a very subjective Christian writor. I wonder if it's humane and just that this pastor has received no sympathy from his OWN brothers. I myself have seen just too many unjust things happening all around the world. I will not shed even one drop of tear for neither the pope nor the Catholics who have just lost their pope, because I've alreayd shed too much tears for such pastors as that "fundy".
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Thanks, Ben. I appreciate your remarks and your personal concern. In the end I chose to just pull a few aside and talk to them privately. It was received pretty well.
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Thanks, too, Andrew. "Know your audience" is a good axiom!
kevin.carroll
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by pastorway
To mark the day the Pope died my wife nad I rented and watched for the first time the movie Luther.
It's in our Netflix queue!
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Here is an insightful (but favorable) bio on the Pope which notes his extreme devotion to Mary. This Pope has elevated Mariolatry to a remarkable degree, especially since the attempted assassination in 1981. He attributes his survival specifically to Mary. Even prior to that event, his motto, according to the article was "Totus tuus (Latin for "All yours," meaning Mary)." Incidentally, the recently uncovered Stasi (East German secret police) files have implicated the KGB and Bulgarian secret police in that assassination attempt, something that has long been suspected and was illustrated in Tom Clancy's novel Red Rabbit.
Bob, I think they are still working out the details of the funeral. There has been some speculation that he might be buried in Poland, but I suspect it will be at the Vatican. President Bush has said he will attend. This article has more on the tradition and church law that bears on the funeral of a Pope.
Bob, I think they are still working out the details of the funeral. There has been some speculation that he might be buried in Poland, but I suspect it will be at the Vatican. President Bush has said he will attend. This article has more on the tradition and church law that bears on the funeral of a Pope.
doulosChristou
Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by pastorway
To mark the day the Pope died my wife nad I rented and watched for the first time the movie Luther.
That's exactly what my wife and I did too!
Despite some regretful ommisions, it was a very fine movie. It presented the gospel.
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