toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
Just call them social clubs.
This one may cause me to leave PCUSA - Gay Clergy
- Thread starter Grymir
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Just call them social clubs.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
We don't have any conservative reformed churches where I live. So, I decided to visit the LaFollette Presbyterian Church (PCUSA). I was very disappointed. I had hoped that they would be somewhat conservative. But I found out when I went they they had women teaching Sunday school classes and preaching, not on the day that I was there thankfully, but they do that quite often I guess. Needless to say, I won't be going there.
The church that I go to is egalitarian but the pastor is a male and there are no female elders. They hardly ever have women teach, so it usually works out okay. Lately, however they have been having women teach on Wednesdays. On those nights, I find somewhere else to go.
I would like to plant a conservative "reformed" church in my town at some point, but I don't feel that now is the right time. There really isn't much of a demand for a church like that here. I hardly know any reformed people here and the only ones that I do know are the ones who go to the PCUSA church and they like Karl Barth.
I know this is slightly off topic, but I do know of a of one guy that I think is close to embracing the doctrines of grace. All of the preachers pretty much that he listens to are "reformed". His favorite preacher is Paul Washer. Yet, he still says that he doesn't like monergism. I would like for you guys to pray for him, 'cause he's really close to goin' all the way.
The church that I go to is egalitarian but the pastor is a male and there are no female elders. They hardly ever have women teach, so it usually works out okay. Lately, however they have been having women teach on Wednesdays. On those nights, I find somewhere else to go.
I would like to plant a conservative "reformed" church in my town at some point, but I don't feel that now is the right time. There really isn't much of a demand for a church like that here. I hardly know any reformed people here and the only ones that I do know are the ones who go to the PCUSA church and they like Karl Barth.
I know this is slightly off topic, but I do know of a of one guy that I think is close to embracing the doctrines of grace. All of the preachers pretty much that he listens to are "reformed". His favorite preacher is Paul Washer. Yet, he still says that he doesn't like monergism. I would like for you guys to pray for him, 'cause he's really close to goin' all the way.
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
What do you mean by one of the "mainline" seven? I thought the SBC was one of the biggest denominations in the U.S.
Mainline is a term of art, technically designating the following denominations: ABCUSA, Disciples, ECUSA, ELC, UMC, PCUSA, UCC. They WERE the main denoms before the evangelical post-war explosion and all part of the NCC. SBC never considered itself part of the National Council of Churches scene or part of the "mainline" despite their size. Most identifiably evangelical denominations affiliated with the National Association of Evangelicals, not the National Council of Churches. So they are, by definition, not part of the mainline seven.
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bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
You need to leave. Even if there are no orthodox churches around you, you still need to leave. God will honor your leaving, and He will be with you even if all you can do is worship at home for awhile.
As for the orthodoxy of the PCUSA, that ship sailed more than a hundred years ago.
Thomas2007
Puritan Board Sophomore
Why don't you find a few other likeminded Reformed believers and approach the OPC or another conservative Presbyterian denomination about starting a Church plant in your area.
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Timothy:
You asked 'what we would do?'. I respond: leave and don't look back.
The Christian Reformed Church has been going down this road for a long time and my father decided that we needed to leave as a family many years ago (but it still isn't as bad as the PCUSA).
You asked 'what we would do?'. I respond: leave and don't look back.
The Christian Reformed Church has been going down this road for a long time and my father decided that we needed to leave as a family many years ago (but it still isn't as bad as the PCUSA).
Grymir;
Where is YOUR Pastor and YOUR congregation at on this issue? That is also what I'd be looking at..IF they are in agreement with lifting the ban, then I would say LEAVE.
If they are NOT agreement then maybe you could suggest THE congregation as a WHOLE join another denomination..
If there are only a handful within your congregation who are NOT in agreement, maybe they would be willing to speak to a reformed denomination and ask about starting a church plant in your area...something that could grow..
Where is YOUR Pastor and YOUR congregation at on this issue? That is also what I'd be looking at..IF they are in agreement with lifting the ban, then I would say LEAVE.
If they are NOT agreement then maybe you could suggest THE congregation as a WHOLE join another denomination..
If there are only a handful within your congregation who are NOT in agreement, maybe they would be willing to speak to a reformed denomination and ask about starting a church plant in your area...something that could grow..
Scripture takes a different approach: have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. We are not a witness to Belial by partnering with him in the supposed work of the ministry, but by reprobating him and all his evil in the strongest, clearest terms we can find. When a denomination will not take action against open heresy, in order to heed the apostolic admonitions about false teachers, we can only distance ourselves from them. That is a regrettable state of affairs probably resulting from years of accumulated unfaithfulness in discipline; but if that is where you find yourself, the way forward is clear.
A hundred years ago? OK, what benchmark would you use to identify departure from orthodoxy. The old PCUSA affirmed the fundamentals as recently as 1919. B. B. Warfield was teaching at Princeton into the 1920s.
Granted they did reunite with the amyrauldian wing of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church about 100 years ago.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
He is heterodox.
Galatians220
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Grymir, I've been watching this thread closely, and my heart goes out to you and your family. More than you can imagine.
Question for you: have you others in league with you? Like about 3-5 families?
We were in a similar position two years ago... We had nowhere to go. There are plenty of PCUSAs around here. There is just one PCA in a county to our north that's largely a "rock 'n' roll heaven;" there is one OPC that wasn't my cup of tea. Roughly 65% of our neighbors are Roman Catholics; some other large percentage are Hindus or Muslims; others are mainline Protestants, Arminian fundies or, on the other end of the spectrum, atheists or whatever. Useless, right? Nope! I rolled up my shirtsleeves and got to work. I found that little coterie, that core group who wanted pure, Biblical preaching, teaching and the real Gospel. Now we're up and running, and we're doing well enough that we know, Lord willing, we will be around next year. Financially speaking, at least...
I wouldn't encourage anyone to do what I did, though. It takes a LOT of effort, time, a never-say-quit love for the Lord and His people, wherever they may be. It takes perseverance, a ton of humility and patience, and money, too. Do it only if you think you can love doing it and the Lord is leading you. Pray over it unceasingly: that's the most important part.
When deciding whether or not to take Step One towards this effort, I looked at the other side: where were we going to worship? Was it reasonable for us to pick up and go somewhere else? (Like "Michigan's Holy Land," Grand Rapids...) No.
I had to do what I did. Had no choice. It was a labor of love for the Lord. Now every Sunday, as I hear the people coming in and greet them, one after another, I take no personal pride in it... It's been HIS work, HIS idea; we were just the means He used. Does He mean to use you as well? Oh, if He does, you will be blessed!
You have just been added to my daily prayer list (well, actually, everyone on this board is already on that). I pray that you'll find a place "to land," as we called it before we embarked on our own effort.
God bless you, Grymir.
Margaret
Question for you: have you others in league with you? Like about 3-5 families?
We were in a similar position two years ago... We had nowhere to go. There are plenty of PCUSAs around here. There is just one PCA in a county to our north that's largely a "rock 'n' roll heaven;" there is one OPC that wasn't my cup of tea. Roughly 65% of our neighbors are Roman Catholics; some other large percentage are Hindus or Muslims; others are mainline Protestants, Arminian fundies or, on the other end of the spectrum, atheists or whatever. Useless, right? Nope! I rolled up my shirtsleeves and got to work. I found that little coterie, that core group who wanted pure, Biblical preaching, teaching and the real Gospel. Now we're up and running, and we're doing well enough that we know, Lord willing, we will be around next year. Financially speaking, at least...
I wouldn't encourage anyone to do what I did, though. It takes a LOT of effort, time, a never-say-quit love for the Lord and His people, wherever they may be. It takes perseverance, a ton of humility and patience, and money, too. Do it only if you think you can love doing it and the Lord is leading you. Pray over it unceasingly: that's the most important part.
When deciding whether or not to take Step One towards this effort, I looked at the other side: where were we going to worship? Was it reasonable for us to pick up and go somewhere else? (Like "Michigan's Holy Land," Grand Rapids...) No.
I had to do what I did. Had no choice. It was a labor of love for the Lord. Now every Sunday, as I hear the people coming in and greet them, one after another, I take no personal pride in it... It's been HIS work, HIS idea; we were just the means He used. Does He mean to use you as well? Oh, if He does, you will be blessed!
You have just been added to my daily prayer list (well, actually, everyone on this board is already on that). I pray that you'll find a place "to land," as we called it before we embarked on our own effort.
God bless you, Grymir.
Margaret
Ivan
Pastor
What wonderful encouragment!!!
bookslover
Puritan Board Doctor
Well, that was a general statement: a hundred years ago, more or less.
By the time Warfield died in February, 1921, the liberals were well on the way to gaining control of the ecclesiastical machinery (boards, committees, etc.) of the denomination and, in only a few more years (1929), they successfully re-organized Princeton Seminary, forcing most of the conservatives out. The reason they were so successful is that they had been working on taking over the denomination for several decades beforehand. Think about the Briggs trial; think about the confessional revisions that were attempted late in the 19th century, etc.
As for the reaffirmation of the fundamentals in 1919 (a point I'm a little obscure on, I'll admit), a good question to ask would be: in what sense did the liberals at that time "affirm" them. With crossed fingers?
Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
Thanks y'all for the input. So much stuff, I don't know where to start. 
Sotzo, Barth denies the Bible is the written word of God for starters. His dialectical approach to theology is epistemologically flawed. Like Backwoods said, he's heterodox at best. He teaches that we can only know about God in relationships, not in the correct way of understanding the propositional truth's that God put in the Bible. In his 'preaching and prayer' he actually wrote that a pastor should never mention sin as it relates to people, but only mention sin when it comes to Jesus (His cross specifically). His modernistic theology permeates my church, and as Luther said, if we neglect that place where the church is being attacked at this moment (doctrine), we are not doing the job of a theologian. I could go on, but if a little dweeb like me can see his many trouble spots, I have to wonder how he became so popular. (Answer - People don't do polemics anymore in the mainline/sideline church's. Hence we see church's slipping away) Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that can tell we're getting therapeutic sermons (ie, what we need to do for God, for Him to like us), and not the gospel and what Jesus did for us.
Margret, That's good advice. I started teaching some of my local friends long before I went to church. We do have a local core, but I don't know if they would commit to such an endeavor. But where the Lord leads, the Lord provides. This is an idea that I haven't thought of. There are alot of hungry people out there that want God's truths, and I promised God that I could teach better than any liberal, and would teach His word accurately if I was given the chance. And less than a year later, I was. My first church took the time to help translate the knowledge that God put in my brain (by reading and study, not some weirdo way) and apply it in a teaching environment. I will give it prayerfull consideration.
BJClark - unfortunately, most of my congregation is to the left of the pastor, who is to the left of me. (Who isn't to my left anyway, besides my wife?) I think that they don't care to much. Or worse, agree.
py3ak - your advice has really struck me. I've been contemplating what you said all day. What you said will make a big difference in what I do. Lightness and darkness don't mix. To compromise with evil is to invite it in. Thank you for your words.
Poimen - Not looking back will be the hardest part. Wondering if I made the right decision.
Casey Bessette - Thanks for the information you gave me. I will be contacting the OPC. One person can make a difference.
Bookslover - Thank you. That we may be we will be doing. Eventually I know that a good church will be found, but until then, I know that you are right.
To the rest of y'all - Sorry if I didn't mention you by name, but I really appreciate all that everybody said. I'm leaving for a 5 day, 4 night camping trip with my wife. So feel free to add your comments, and I will reply when I get back. This is a hard decision. God Bless y'all - Grymir
Sotzo, Barth denies the Bible is the written word of God for starters. His dialectical approach to theology is epistemologically flawed. Like Backwoods said, he's heterodox at best. He teaches that we can only know about God in relationships, not in the correct way of understanding the propositional truth's that God put in the Bible. In his 'preaching and prayer' he actually wrote that a pastor should never mention sin as it relates to people, but only mention sin when it comes to Jesus (His cross specifically). His modernistic theology permeates my church, and as Luther said, if we neglect that place where the church is being attacked at this moment (doctrine), we are not doing the job of a theologian. I could go on, but if a little dweeb like me can see his many trouble spots, I have to wonder how he became so popular. (Answer - People don't do polemics anymore in the mainline/sideline church's. Hence we see church's slipping away) Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that can tell we're getting therapeutic sermons (ie, what we need to do for God, for Him to like us), and not the gospel and what Jesus did for us.
Margret, That's good advice. I started teaching some of my local friends long before I went to church. We do have a local core, but I don't know if they would commit to such an endeavor. But where the Lord leads, the Lord provides. This is an idea that I haven't thought of. There are alot of hungry people out there that want God's truths, and I promised God that I could teach better than any liberal, and would teach His word accurately if I was given the chance. And less than a year later, I was. My first church took the time to help translate the knowledge that God put in my brain (by reading and study, not some weirdo way) and apply it in a teaching environment. I will give it prayerfull consideration.
BJClark - unfortunately, most of my congregation is to the left of the pastor, who is to the left of me. (Who isn't to my left anyway, besides my wife?) I think that they don't care to much. Or worse, agree.
py3ak - your advice has really struck me. I've been contemplating what you said all day. What you said will make a big difference in what I do. Lightness and darkness don't mix. To compromise with evil is to invite it in. Thank you for your words.
Poimen - Not looking back will be the hardest part. Wondering if I made the right decision.
Casey Bessette - Thanks for the information you gave me. I will be contacting the OPC. One person can make a difference.
Bookslover - Thank you. That we may be we will be doing. Eventually I know that a good church will be found, but until then, I know that you are right.
To the rest of y'all - Sorry if I didn't mention you by name, but I really appreciate all that everybody said. I'm leaving for a 5 day, 4 night camping trip with my wife. So feel free to add your comments, and I will reply when I get back. This is a hard decision. God Bless y'all - Grymir
Galatians220
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Well, Grymir! You're already a tested and true leader - and it sounds as though you do have people... It helps that you're a guy (I started out as just a lone woman, making phone calls - and then my husband jumped on board. And then some from his Friday morning men's Bible study, including its teacher... And then we were "off to the races!" ).
You said something up there that really impressed me that maybe this is something you should consider: "where the Lord leads, the Lord provides." Yes, He absolutely and positively delights in this!
And where He breaks your heart for want of worship of Him, He will most definitely provide for you, and for the others you bring with you. He doesn't want us to "wander;" He dearly loves to gather us. I pray, Grymir, that He'll open door after door for you, that you'll either find or start a solid place in which Christ is exalted and the Gospel is faithfully proclaimed, week after week.
Again, may our Savior's grace in abundance, mercy overflowing and love everlasting be with you.
Margaret
).You said something up there that really impressed me that maybe this is something you should consider: "where the Lord leads, the Lord provides." Yes, He absolutely and positively delights in this!
And where He breaks your heart for want of worship of Him, He will most definitely provide for you, and for the others you bring with you. He doesn't want us to "wander;" He dearly loves to gather us. I pray, Grymir, that He'll open door after door for you, that you'll either find or start a solid place in which Christ is exalted and the Gospel is faithfully proclaimed, week after week.
Again, may our Savior's grace in abundance, mercy overflowing and love everlasting be with you.
Margaret
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Grace Alone
Puritan Board Senior
Hi, Tim,
This is actually my first post here! I have been reading for a few weeks but saw your post and wanted to reply, so I joined!
We were members of the PCUSA for the first 15 years or so that we were married. I would say we were nominal Christians at best. Over time, the Lord opened my eyes to be alarmed with some things going on in the denomination, and to make a long, long story short, we left (with my husband's approval) and joined an ARP church in another town for 2 years while the plans were put into place to begin a PCA church in our town. The Lord specifically raised up people out of that PCUSA church to start the new PCA one. We joined that mission and stayed with it for 12 or so years until leadership issues caused us to have to leave (let me just say generally that it was more broadly evangelical than we would like, and there were some other leadership problems). We have now been attending another ARP mission with very godly leadership and a firm foundation, praise God, but we are having to travel about 25 minutes.
My husband's parents are very attached to their PCUSA building, memories, and friends in another state, and we are so grieved that they have not felt the need to leave even though there has been a PCA church in their town for a few years now. To be honest, I don't see how you or they have stayed this long. I believe you are on a sinking ship and they have passed the point of being a true church.
I hope you will contact the PCA or OPC and talk to them about your situation. Our currrent church planter/pastor was called to this location with NO core group! It was started by a faithful ARP mother church in a nearby town and the Lord has blessed!
I will pray that the Lord opens doors for you and your family to be in a Bible believing church.
Blessings,
Jan
This is actually my first post here! I have been reading for a few weeks but saw your post and wanted to reply, so I joined!
We were members of the PCUSA for the first 15 years or so that we were married. I would say we were nominal Christians at best. Over time, the Lord opened my eyes to be alarmed with some things going on in the denomination, and to make a long, long story short, we left (with my husband's approval) and joined an ARP church in another town for 2 years while the plans were put into place to begin a PCA church in our town. The Lord specifically raised up people out of that PCUSA church to start the new PCA one. We joined that mission and stayed with it for 12 or so years until leadership issues caused us to have to leave (let me just say generally that it was more broadly evangelical than we would like, and there were some other leadership problems). We have now been attending another ARP mission with very godly leadership and a firm foundation, praise God, but we are having to travel about 25 minutes.
My husband's parents are very attached to their PCUSA building, memories, and friends in another state, and we are so grieved that they have not felt the need to leave even though there has been a PCA church in their town for a few years now. To be honest, I don't see how you or they have stayed this long. I believe you are on a sinking ship and they have passed the point of being a true church.
I hope you will contact the PCA or OPC and talk to them about your situation. Our currrent church planter/pastor was called to this location with NO core group! It was started by a faithful ARP mother church in a nearby town and the Lord has blessed!
I will pray that the Lord opens doors for you and your family to be in a Bible believing church.
Blessings,
Jan
Grace Alone
Puritan Board Senior
One question. Does anyone have good links to this latest action that we could send my husband's parents? Thanks!
the Presbyterian Layman can be found at The Layman Online The Institute of Religion and democracy can be found at Institute on Religion & Democracy (IRD)
Grace Alone
Puritan Board Senior
Thanks so much! We subscribed to the Layman for them years ago, but I didn't even know they had a website. We'll send them the links, thanks!
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